Firaxis: Patch coming next week

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rd_syringe said:
I disagree. I never played the original, but Civilization II required 16MB of RAM just to display those animated advisors. Civ III didn't run on my computer at the time without chopping up the 2D unit movement animations. I think Civilization has always pushed the computers of its time like most other games.

I have to agree... BUT I think it's not because of it's graphic but because of the unoptimised code
when compared to other games...

as an exemple, CIV III on a huge map, with 16 civs and all was slower then civIV
between each turn, on my computer... but still CIV IV as enormous lag during the turns ... it's not a "pushing the envoloppe" challenge, it's "where do it failed to be optimised" challenge :)
 
Hey, I try and always have a point. It's an important part of posting!

Anyways, I have read too many casual dismissals of problems as being related to "crappy hardware" or "your computer is just messed up" to tolerate them any longer. The fact is I can run any game made - I can run Doom3, Far Cry, BFME, SW:BF2, Moo3, Rome TW, etc. etc. and have no problems.

But Civ4 is a nightmare - and it SUCKS because I am in the middle of a REALLY good game of it! Playing as Rome, I am getting dogpiled - China has been at war with me for a long time, they are the lead Civ - consistently attacking me with better units than I have. I am beating them off (that sounds unfortunate!) and they have yet to take a city, but I have to be vigilant. I expanded on the continent to my south, and have come up against the Incas, who I am ahead of, but logisitically it is SO BLOODY HARD to supply a war on another continent with a 2 move per turn GALLEY fleet... we made an uncomfortable peace, I was forced to evacuate a city that I could not defend without huge costs and eventual failure anyways, I took a huge city of theirs close to my settlements by cutting off road lines to keep reinforcements trickling in, not flooding, and made a treaty giving them an outpost city that they were about to take anyways. In the middle of THAT, Peter from Russia declares war by landing three galleons worth of grenadiers and war elephants on my weak flank, where through the miracle of cavalry and roads and drafting musketeers I was able to hold and later soundly defeat (he signed for an expensive peace later, even though I couldn't take the battle to him).

MY tenuous peace with the Inca have expired, and I took advantage to declare war, getting back that last city I offered as tribuyte, slaughtering some 10 units and most importantly, catching at least 8 ships in port and destroying his entire west coast fleet! This tribute city is on a tile that links the west coast with a huge inland sea, and now I control the only in out traffic MUHAHAHA...

Man, if I could just keep this game running...

Venger
P.S. So much for the "Quick" part of quick reply
 
Hello All,
I was wondering if anyone knew if the patch would include any Intel graphics cards, which is what all three of my computers are running on. I really dont want to go buy a new card, since this is the only PC game I play, and I never needed anything on the high end.
 
Aztec -

You are going to have to upgrade. The Intel integrated stuff sucks for games, even ones like Civ4. The good news is that upgrades are cheap - you can get a GF4-ti4200 for under $50 on ebay, or a 6600GT for $120 or so.

Venger
 
-Venger
Thanks, I guess I will have to make that small investment. I was very disapointed when I tried Installing the game and seeing only my civ leaders eyes and teeth. Thanks for the recommendations.

-Aztec
 
With news of the patch and the OP mentioning the developers looking for info, does anyone know if there is an official channel for reporting bugs? How can I get in touch with someone at Firaxis without spamming them?
 
H4ck3rPr0j3c7 said:
speaking from experience i sho as hell dont fall in the "crappy" hardware/computer category so on a certain extent Venger has a point...


and thanx for clearing that up oldStatesman, but it still doesnt explain the fact that i got a low VM warning while playing for 2 hours, if that doesnt mean theres a memory leak i dunno what does.. since i've had this computer even before the ram and vid card upgrade i have NEVER gotten a low VM warning before. so either way you look at it thats still pretty bad in itself.. and No game should take up that many resources, if current games took that many resources either alot of ppl would be doing Tons of PC upgrades and tweaking, or no1 would be buying the games at all, if a game causes a Low Virtual Memory warning on a system with 1gig ram a 256mb video card and 2gig virtual memory not to mention all the other things i've done to my comp then the game isnt fit to run on my comp let alone anyone elses with equal or same stats.. but then again maybe thats just my view on things.. shrugs.
NP! :)

I guess I should have said my test did not rule out a memory leak ....just that it did not show evidence of one. One test is not a good sample; I was just making some initial observations.

You are entirely correct, your hardware should not be having issues. My gut feeling is that the issues lies in the optimization of the game engine; since Take2 virtually forced Firaxis to release 3 weeks early this is not surprising, as optimization is usually one of the last things worked out. What is surprising is that it runs well on so many machines - this is indeed a good sign that a patch or two (and perhaps in addition updated drivers from the graphics vendors, though these will take a lot longer) will correct most related issues.
 
H4ck3rPr0j3c7 said:
and thanx for clearing that up oldStatesman, but it still doesnt explain the fact that i got a low VM warning while playing for 2 hours, if that doesnt mean theres a memory leak i dunno what does..

A low virtual memory alarm doesn't necessarily mean there's a memory leak. Games such as Civ4 progress in time and it is natural for them to require more memory as things progress.

A memory leak is defined as a bug that involves allocating memory from the 'heap' (memory pool) and forgetting to release/deallocate it when the task is finished. It can usually detected when you revert to some known configuration (such as loading a savegame) and discover that the process is now using 25% more RAM (say), and then loading again to find it's now using another 20% more. Monitoring memory usage over time and finding it slowly increasing doesn't really indicate a possible memory leak unless the process isn't actually doing anything (e.g. if you left the game paused for 24 hours and came back and found it out-of-memory).

So I'm not saying there is no memory leak, I'm just saying it takes more than a VM low alarm to indicate one. Civ4 uses a LOT of RAM, which might explain why you've not encountered that before. Increase your VM size by a factor of 10 and if you still get that alarm, then I'd start to get worried.
 
oldStatesman said:
NP! :)

I guess I should have said my test did not rule out a memory leak ....just that it did not show evidence of one. One test is not a good sample; I was just making some initial observations.

You are entirely correct, your hardware should not be having issues. My gut feeling is that the issues lies in the optimization of the game engine; since Take2 virtually forced Firaxis to release 3 weeks early this is not surprising, as optimization is usually one of the last things worked out. What is surprising is that it runs well on so many machines - this is indeed a good sign that a patch or two (and perhaps in addition updated drivers from the graphics vendors, though these will take a lot longer) will correct most related issues.

The issue that many people are having is that CivIV runs well on most machines, but is flat out unplayable on the rest. Most of the time when games are released with significant bugs, they are still playable. In this case (even after the failed to initialize... fix), myself and many other people can not play the game we just spent $50 on.
 
that may be Meow, and i know how VM works.. but under normal operation my comp only uses between 63-69mbs of VM out of 2gigs and having 1gig of ram and 256mb for the video card thats using ALOT of VM which it shouldnt be using.. so if you think about it a leak would explain alot.. and yes your right Civ 4 does take up alot of ram, but not even Doom3 took up that much and look at how graphically enhanced that game is, hell i had to upgrade my original tweaked vid card to the 1 i have now just to play it without lag.. if games keep becoming so demanding that you have to do some upgrading just to play them there probably wont be as many gamers as there are now. hell at this rate they're gonna start makin video cards with a gig of ram :|
 
This is a questin for DarkHelmet:

How can you agree to contract (EULA) that says "we are not responsbile for damage to your computer"... and then hold them resonsible for damage to your computer?
 
Khaim said:
Not at all. He followed the instructions on their website and it killed his computer. That is totally unacceptable. He could probably sue them for the cost of buying Windows XP and win.

hahahaha. Sorry I know its an old post but this made my day, and apologies if anyone thinks im flaming, I'm not, thats just geniunely funny. I might submit it to bash.org lol.

H4ck3rPr0j3c7 said:
that may be Meow, and i know how VM works.. but under normal operation my comp only uses between 63-69mbs of VM out of 2gigs and having 1gig of ram and 256mb for the video card thats using ALOT of VM which it shouldnt be using.. so if you think about it a leak would explain alot.. and yes your right Civ 4 does take up alot of ram, but not even Doom3 took up that much and look at how graphically enhanced that game is, hell i had to upgrade my original tweaked vid card to the 1 i have now just to play it without lag.. if games keep becoming so demanding that you have to do some upgrading just to play them there probably wont be as many gamers as there are now. hell at this rate they're gonna start makin video cards with a gig of ram :|

Ram is physical memory not virtual my friend, and if your pc is only using 64mb of its page file im very highly impressed as mines on around 250mb right now due to normal windows processes like my networking, messenger and the like.
 
SarcasticDwarf said:
The issue that many people are having is that CivIV runs well on most machines, but is flat out unplayable on the rest. Most of the time when games are released with significant bugs, they are still playable. In this case (even after the failed to initialize... fix), myself and many other people can not play the game we just spent $50 on.
I sympathize...I am one who cannot play the game consistently without it eventually CTD.

But I am not posting in this thread to place blame or to defend the devs or to take a stand on either side here...I am just trying to be proactive and help work toward a resolution...regardless of my personal feelings.
 
The thing to understand about EULA's and so forth - waiver of liability agreements almost NEVER include incomeptence/negligence or a failure to act in good faith. Think about it - why wouldn't the doctor just have every patient sign an agreement that they weren't responsible if you died or were injured during treatment? AFAIK, you cannot waive liability for negligence.

Now, in this case, clearly suing is not an option - the condition that you may need to at some point at or remove hardware is clearly foreseeable, and failing to protect yourself reasonably from this is more than enough to establish that anyone who uses XP should maintain the ability to activate it.

However, you could argue class action if the program is defective and remedy is not made in lieu of purchase - let's face it, the other side of the EULA is that you expect the software to RUN... but the game will be fixed sufficiently I am sure.

Venger
 
H4ck3rPr0j3c7 said:
and yes your right Civ 4 does take up alot of ram, but not even Doom3 took up that much and look at how graphically enhanced that game is

Hi H4ck3rPr0j4c7, thanks for your reply. I agree with you so please don't think I'm trying to pick a fight. Just a quick comment - I have played Doom3 and yes, it's got a lot of fancy graphics. However it's very light on substance and I wouldn't expect the working memory load to be abnormally high for a PC game. High-res textures cached in RAM perhaps, that sort of thing. I wouldn't imagine the AI routines use a lot of RAM because they seem very simplistic.

Now Civ4 has a lot of 3D models and textures - all of them quite small individually, but there's a lot of them. Also, Civ4 keeps track of a lot of data - scores, cities, queues, orders, map data, etc, etc. And then there's the AI which would use a lot of RAM itself.

So, yes, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm just saying I don't think the 'graphics' make a good indicator of memory usage on their own.

Let's hope if there is a memory leak the developers find it and plug it.
 
Khaim said:
Not at all. He followed the instructions on their website and it killed his computer. That is totally unacceptable. He could probably sue them for the cost of buying Windows XP and win.

Hate to be a buzzkill, but look at page 222 of your manual under the LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREMENT. An agreement you enter, as soon as you open the box.

It states: IN NO EVENT WILL LICENSOR BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR INJURIES. EVEN IF THE LICENSOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBLITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, LICENSOR'S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR USE OF THE SOFTWARE.

Even if you take them to court and they are found liable, it wouldn't be more then $50 dollars in damages.

As for the actually problem that man is having, I used an ATI Radeon 9700 PRO, and I havn't ran into this ATI bug. I have my XP OS fully up to date with .net framework installed, and I just happend to upgrade my drivers for B&W2. Btw don't upgrade the drivers unless you sure you need them.

But as for you problem, its not there fault you misplaced your windows CD key, I had been using a 2000 Pro version they had to install in order to do a file transfer from my old harddrive.(<-- Smart!) However when I did finally encounter a serious error 3 years later, I was forced to buy the windows software, which Im glad I did, and I ALWAYS know where the box is. Anyone who bought windows, would probly do the same.

So I beleave your just mad that the illegal OS on your computer was comprimised because of something you did to you Video Card Hardware settings. And even if this is not the case, then you are still in fault for the error, They did not force you to take those steps, and Im sure if you contacted them, they would of gave you a refund, the refund your retailer cannot give to you. It is also my belief that you did not correctly follow the instructions on removing and updating your hardware drivers, and this led to a error in you hardware, flaging it, and windows itself.

The way I see it the only person that is at fault, legally and ACTUALLY is the person, who edited his system, to ensure one piece of software was playable.

Shameless Link

http://www.eaplay.com/australia/promotions/mostwanted/?entry_id=39674

PS, I know this thread is most likly past this, but i didnt read past the second page.

Edit: It was a bit long so I just pointed out the main parts of my discussion with boldness
 
Gory im talking about a VM low warning from playing for 2 hours, not Physical RAM which i have 1gig of which when i checked Civ 4 was using 630mbs of that it still had a few hundred left to use, so VM shouldnt have been low.. at this moment with 7 taskbar icons and IE running i have 730mbs out of 1gig Physical RAM Free and 59-61mbs out of 2gig VM used.. but you also have to keep in mind that my entire comp is tweaked.. i dont have any uneeded services running and i only have about 8 or 9 startup programs enabled.. i use programs such as Tweak XP Pro, System Mechanic 6 Pro and Tuneup Utils 2006 to tweak everything and to keep everything in tip top shape, not to mention my Ad-Aware prog and all the other tools that come included with the above mentioned programs.. when it comes to my comp/comps im all about the best and all about tweaking. not to mention my drive is only 5% frag'd so i doubt that has anything to do with it also. so now i hope you can see where im coming from atleast in part. but you may want to give those progs a try at some point if your system is using that much. when it comes to software especially when it comes to tweaking software i know my stuff, when it comes to hardware i know enough. im a site admin/tech on 3 yahoo based websites of which i also run the help desk if that tells you anything.. so yeah im not a newbie when it comes to computers, especially my own.

Edit.
And thanx for that Meow, and i knew you werent trying to start a fight or anything so its all good :)

oh and for the record im on XP Home SP2 w/ all updates thusfar, but apparently unlike the majority of you im guessing my comp came with XP, i didnt have to buy the CD for it.. to be honest theres no way in hell that i'd go n buy an XP OS CD, or any OS CD for that matter, to much hastle.. and just because some1 cant find the reg key for XP doesnt mean its pirated, hell a friend of mine got the CD just like you guys at a computer store and he cant even use windows update because its telling him that his XP isnt valid. so yeah, thinking some1s on a pirated version isnt an excuse.
 
Willem said:
As for the whole T&L issue, it was clearly stated as a requirement and if someone's video card doesn't support it, they have to expect issues. And it doesn't take a genius to see the link between the black terrain/cheshire cat leaders and the lack of T&L support. It just requires a little bit of logic. All video cards that don't have T&L support show these symptoms, and only some of the ones that do support the technology are having these problems. It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

The issue isn't quite so clear as you might think. Last time I checked in the forums, every person who has complained about this issue has either an Intel Graphics controller (not T&L capable) or a Mobility Radeon 7500 (T&L capable, with the desktop equivalent specifically listed as compatible in the System Requirements), so your observation doesn't seem to be based on much.
Just making a point- I'm not trying to provoke anyone.

EDIT: 5900XT is another T&L capable card with black terrain/cheshire cat leader problem.
 
Venger said:
This game is clearly not ready for prime time - which is too bad, because it is quite fun once you fight through the excessive memory requirements and touchy rendering engine to actually play the game. Oh - and yes, I have all sorts of problems on my "crappy hardware" - 1GB of RAM, Dual 2.2Ghz Athlons, 5900XT video card - FAR and AWAY in excess of the recommended specifications.

Venger

:sad:

I have to agree with Venger, this thing was not ready for it's release. I too am running on "crappy hardware" Pentium 4 3.2Ghz, 1 Gig RAM, Nvidia 6800 256mb PCI Express Card, 160 Gig Hard drive, it seems I meet the requirements but it took hours to get my game playable.
 
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