First Look: Sumeria

[Captain Fargle]

Man Gilgamesh is a real beefcake! Shame about that tunic covering most of it up though...

 

[cakes]

sumeria seems fun to play and play with. i'm don't really care about historical accuracy, it's beside the point. does look overpowered though.. how can your early game go wrong at all? are there restrictions on ziggurats beside riverside flatland?

 

[MistyRonin]

sumeria seems fun to play and play with. i'm don't really care about historical accuracy, it's beside the point. does look overpowered though.. how can your early game go wrong at all? are there restrictions on ziggurats beside riverside flatland?

Well it's overpowered in the really early game, but you won't get any big bonus at any other era, so IMHO it's kind of balanced. And from the ancient era there's a long way until the final victory.

On the ziggurats the limitation definition in the video was a bit confusing, I understand that you get always science, and if adjacent to a river also culture .

 

[Ebrim]

sumeria seems fun to play and play with. i'm don't really care about historical accuracy, it's beside the point. does look overpowered though.. how can your early game go wrong at all? are there restrictions on ziggurats beside riverside flatland?

Other things you want to build on those tiles. I'd also assume they can't be adjacent to each other as that seems pretty normal for unique improvements but I don't know that.

 

[rastak]

Well it's overpowered in the really early game, but you won't get any big bonus at any other era, so IMHO it's kind of balanced. And from the ancient era there's a long way until the final victory.

On the ziggurats the limitation definition in the video was a bit confusing, I understand that you get always science, and if adjacent to a river also culture .

You could spam them but you also need farms to grow.

 

[Ebrim]

You could spam them but you also need farms to grow.

Nor do you, I imagine, want to convert all your production into builders just for ziggurats.

 

[Alsark]

Want to go to war because your neighboring civ is annoying you, but he has a stronger military? With Gilgamesh Bro, don't let your dreams be dreams. JUST DO IT!



(If you live under a rock and don't get the reference.)

 

[Louis XXIV]

The Sumerians look quite fun. I do kinda wish they went with Ur-Nammu or Shulgi as a leader. While I'm slowly warming up to the possibility that Gilgamesh was a real person, it remains still only a possibility (with equally strong arguments that he's not). I'd have preferred someone less mythological. I really enjoy Gilgamesh's unique bonus, though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wow, NOTHING about Sumeria's agricultural prowess in there.

I suspect that the 'agricultural bonus' may be there implicitly instead of explicitly.
What I mean is, there's nothing specific to it in any of their 'Uniques' BUT since the Ziggurat requires river tiles to be really effective, it Implies that Sumeria will be biased for a river start.

That means a lot of plains or grassland tiles, possibly some Flood Plain, and Irrigation is one of the earliest Techs in the (so-far revealed) Tech Tree. Want to bet that Irrigation + River/Plain/Grassland will equal a pretty fair bonus to your farms?
The could be the 'hidden' Sumerian Agriculture Bonus. After all, it was not substantially different from all the other 'Hydraulic' (intensive irrigation-based) civilizations since then, so giving them a Built-In Bonus to food production would be a little artificial. Also, in Civ VI Housing apparently has as much influence on Growth as Food, so it might even be better to be able to balance Food and Housing by your actions rather than have one or the other but not both thrown at you.

We need some more info on the influence of the technologies/Tiles to be sure. Has anyone seen the Tool Tips for Irrigation?

 

[Nightsong]

While different than the Civilization IV iteration of Sumeria, I'm liking what Firaxis has done with the civilization this time around. Yes, we could argue all day about them not having a focus on their prowess in irrigation and agriculture but Sumerian technology was also very strong. Examples of Sumerian technology include: the wheel, cuneiform script, arithmetic and geometry, irrigation systems, Sumerian boats, lunisolar calendar, bronze, leather, saws, chisels, hammers, braces, bits, nails, pins, rings, hoes, axes, knives, lancepoints, arrowheads, swords, glue, daggers, waterskins, bags, harnesses, armor, quivers, war chariots, scabbards, boots, sandals, harpoons and beer.

As for their military aspect, it really depends how well the AI can handle manipulation and being payed off / bribed to fight on your behalf while your reap the rewards without having to incur a warmongering penalty. There really is no way to judge this until the game comes out and we all get a hand of it ourselves. That or some people play Sumeria and show it off after the NDA drops on Thursday and comment on how their civilization abilities work out.

 

[Morningcalm]

I suspect that the 'agricultural bonus' may be there implicitly instead of explicitly.
What I mean is, there's nothing specific to it in any of their 'Uniques' BUT since the Ziggurat requires river tiles to be really effective, it Implies that Sumeria will be biased for a river start.

That means a lot of plains or grassland tiles, possibly some Flood Plain, and Irrigation is one of the earliest Techs in the (so-far revealed) Tech Tree. Want to bet that Irrigation + River/Plain/Grassland will equal a pretty fair bonus to your farms?
The could be the 'hidden' Sumerian Agriculture Bonus. After all, it was not substantially different from all the other 'Hydraulic' (intensive irrigation-based) civilizations since then, so giving them a Built-In Bonus to food production would be a little artificial. Also, in Civ VI Housing apparently has as much influence on Growth as Food, so it might even be better to be able to balance Food and Housing by your actions rather than have one or the other but not both thrown at you.

We need some more info on the influence of the technologies/Tiles to be sure. Has anyone seen the Tool Tips for Irrigation?

That's not really enough IMO. Sumeria was in the Fertile Crescent. Arable land from rich silt, and an overabundance of fish, created a positive cornucopia of food wealth there, enough to lead to legends that the Garden of Eden was originally there.

It was a HUGE part of early human civilization and particularly Sumeria, so it's a real shame it's not in the game in some way, shape or form.

The Sumerians look quite fun. I do kinda wish they went with Ur-Nammu or Shulgi as a leader. While I'm slowly warming up to the possibility that Gilgamesh was a real person, it remains still only a possibility (with equally strong arguments that he's not). I'd have preferred someone less mythological. I really enjoy Gilgamesh's unique bonus, though.

Agreed. Both were accomplished leaders. I don't mind that Gilgamesh is pseudo-legendary as such, as most agree he existed. But he has little in the way of real accomplishments.

Contrast that with Ur-Nammu and Shulgi:

One of Utuhegal’s generals, Ur-Nammu (r. 2113-2095 BC), founded the 3rd Dynasty of Ur. In addition to being a successful military leader, he was also a social reformer and the originator of a law code that antedates that of the Babylonian king Hammurabi by about three centuries (see Hammurabi, Code of). Ur-Nammu’s son Shulgi (r. 2095-2047 BC) was a successful soldier, a skillful diplomat, and a patron of literature. During his reign the schools and academies of the kingdom flourished.

And this quote from Shulgi on the future of Sumerian literature:

Now, I swear by the sun god Utu on this very day -- and my younger brothers shall be witness of it in foreign lands where the sons of Sumer are not known, where people do not have the use of paved roads, where they have no access to the written word -- that I, the firstborn son, am a fashioner of words, a composer of songs, a composer of words, and that they will recite my songs as heavenly writings, and that they will bow down before my words......

 

[spfun]

The cost of early Ziggurats will be mean less production. Basically swapping production for early science/culture. You will also have less time to hit eurekas/inspirations with the boosted science/culture rate and less production to build units etc... That could be used to get these boosts.

Its other bonuses are pretty weak. LUA is terrible. All and all I doubt i will play as Sumeria in this form.

 

[stealth_nsk]

So what.

Can you as Gilgamesh send one unit to a joint war and park it the back just to get XP.

If true, paying off AIs to fight just got interesting.

We don't know whether it's possible to buy AI into war with someone you're not at war. If you could, declaring war as Sumer would be too cheesy - buy some ally, declare your war afterwards. However, I don't think that's possible - not only because of Sumeria, but due to the new Casus Belli mechanics.

The question draws line Sumers being strong and overpowered.

 

[Metecury]

The cost of early Ziggurats will be mean less production. Basically swapping production for early science/culture. You will also have less time to hit eurekas/inspirations with the boosted science/culture rate and less production to build units etc... That could be used to get these boosts.

Its other bonuses are pretty weak. LUA is terrible. All and all I doubt i will play as Sumeria in this form.

Are you referring to the LUA in the video or the one the devs corrected on twitter?





Because on top of having bonuses from pillaging and fighting near allies he has no warmonger penalty for declaring war on civs that attack his allies and gets a 50% discount to the cost of levying city state units.

 

[GhostSalsa]

I don't like this representation of Sumeria...it doesn't make much sense from an historical point of view.
But I like that they feel very unique, albeit in the wrong way :\

I think the design approach was, "Sumeria will allow players to engage with all the tactile features of the ancient era in the game: moving around, making weird buildings, learning basic techs." So Sumeria was designed to fit the game's early turns, not history.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suspect that the 'agricultural bonus' may be there implicitly instead of explicitly.
What I mean is, there's nothing specific to it in any of their 'Uniques' BUT since the Ziggurat requires river tiles to be really effective, it Implies that Sumeria will be biased for a river start.

That means a lot of plains or grassland tiles, possibly some Flood Plain, and Irrigation is one of the earliest Techs in the (so-far revealed) Tech Tree. Want to bet that Irrigation + River/Plain/Grassland will equal a pretty fair bonus to your farms?
The could be the 'hidden' Sumerian Agriculture Bonus. After all, it was not substantially different from all the other 'Hydraulic' (intensive irrigation-based) civilizations since then, so giving them a Built-In Bonus to food production would be a little artificial. Also, in Civ VI Housing apparently has as much influence on Growth as Food, so it might even be better to be able to balance Food and Housing by your actions rather than have one or the other but not both thrown at you.

We need some more info on the influence of the technologies/Tiles to be sure. Has anyone seen the Tool Tips for Irrigation?

Given the basic Housing benefit of Fresh Water, nearly all cities are going to be river cities until you discover Engineering for Aqueducts. Some civs may have uniques geared towards rivers, but all civs are going to favor them heavily.

 

[spfun]

Are you referring to the LUA in the video or the one the devs corrected on twitter?

Because on top of having bonuses from pillaging and fighting near allies he has no warmonger penalty for declaring war on civs that attack his allies and gets a 50% discount to the cost of levying city state units.

Yeah I'm saying the whole LUA is weak and Sumeria as a whole doesn't look that good.

 

[Stringer1313]

Man Gilgamesh is a real beefcake! Shame about that tunic covering most of it up though...

agreed

 

[footslogger]

Well, I've read through the whole thread and am still confused about the LUA. Two questions: 1) does Sumeria alone share pillaging and experience from combat with the closest allied unit within 5 hexes or does Sumeria also benefit in the same way if the allied unit is the one involved in combat? 2) are the benefits 'shared' as in half each or do they both get the full benefit?

 

[malekithau]

The LUA looks interesting -

When at war with a common foe, they and their allies share pillage rewards and share combat experience gains with the closest allied unit within 5 tiles. No Warmonger penalty when you declare war on anyone at war with your allies. Can levy City-State military forces at 50% cost.

So wait until there's a war no need to force one. Ally with one of the combatants. Declare war with NO penalty - for the whole game (this is big as you can join in as many wars as you want and never have a warmonger penalty for doing so). Levy one of your city states (which could be on another continent) and use their forces to farm gold.

This might not be the first civ I play with but I think it will be interesting anyway.