First Punic War Developement Thread

This looks interesting!

Louis XXIV said:
Also, the bulk of Carthaginian heavy infantry was Libyan spearman, not Phoenician citizen-spears, so I think the NumidMerc would work best as a Libyan Mercenary.
I agree with this.

Have you considered making the "local" unit types - Libyans, Numidians, Balearics - connected to resources?
 
The Last Conformist said:
Have you considered making the "local" unit types - Libyans, Numidians, Balearics - connected to resources?

Not sure what you mean - like a 'Numidian' Resource?
I was thinking of making a special resource for Balearic Slingers - only found on the Balearics.

If you need some better tech pics i would be happy to provide you with some

I am pretty happy with the ones i have got - thanks for the offer though.
 
Here is the tech tree, with arrows (bloody annoying to do that, btw)
Any comments? I may make some changes with some more naval techs, which can easily be added on without messing up the whole tech tree.
How are the arrows?
 

Attachments

  • Techtreenew.JPG
    Techtreenew.JPG
    156.5 KB · Views: 267
On your choice of techs:

Some of the techs seem a bit "primitive" for the timeline and/or in comparison to the other techs around them. The way the tech-tree is set up implies that you could research heavy legions without knowing the basics of wood working, mining, or fishing -- unless everyone starts out with these three "primitive" techs already researched, in which case their presence in the scenario is not really necessary.

I would recommend changing Fishing to Sailing, which could allow civs to produce a small, weak ship, something like the curragh in C3C epic game. Or, at the very least, change the graphic (maybe the name as well) so that it implies fishing via the use of ships/sailing craft. As for mining and wood working, I don't have any ready recommendations other than that you change them to something less basic.

Other than that, looks fine and dandy :)
 
To be honest, I kinda agree with him. The first map would also make the transition to P2 and P3 a LOT easier!

Besides, with a 72 turn limit, you really do need a smaller map. 72 turns would not be enough to take all of sicily in map 2 if you do not start with the requisite units (or at least it would not be enough for me... I know my limits ;p).

Out of curiosity, what do you have naval and road movement set to? Giving galleys and such a movement of 3 or 4 would simply be cruel!
 
Rhye said:
I'm looking to this scenario with interest.
I noticed that you used 2 maps: the first in the 1st post, the 2nd later. I prefered the first, as the other seems more distorted.

Thanks - but it is going a bit slowly right now as the exam hall beckons.
The problem is the map has to be distorted in favour of Sicily - nothing else really happened in terms of land fighting! Thats where the Roman consuls were mostly, that is where Hamilcar Barca was mostly.

The only land battles were pretty much outside Agrigentum on Sicily, Regulus in North Africa and some other smallish battles on Sicily.
Naval combat was much more important (Rome lost 800 ships in the war, Carthage 500). I am looking to implement the 'Corvus' tech somewhere.
 
Aeon221 said:
To be honest, I kinda agree with him. The first map would also make the transition to P2 and P3 a LOT easier!

Besides, with a 72 turn limit, you really do need a smaller map. 72 turns would not be enough to take all of sicily in map 2 if you do not start with the requisite units (or at least it would not be enough for me... I know my limits ;p).

Out of curiosity, what do you have naval and road movement set to? Giving galleys and such a movement of 3 or 4 would simply be cruel!

I know the first map is pretty much ideal for the Second Punic War (not doing the third, just Carthage being sieged..). But this one needs much more emphasis on Sicily.

I can change the turn limit to what seems best when i have it running.

Ships will have more movement than 3 or 4 certainly.
 
Rome lost those ships in storms... as a direct result of the corvus, which weighed down their front ends... causing some clear and present problems!

SO mebbe you could make a special galley (sinks in sea and ocean) with the beak that is SLOW AS .... but has REALLY high attack. And carries troops... but all galleys should be able to do that (even if it is only one soldier). Also, if you do make it so that they can carry troops, you wouldnt have to give the Punic galleys bombardment! BONII! haha

Also, I remember that Roman galleys from the period had numbers on all their parts, indicating prefabrication and assembly line style manufacturing... dont know what you can do with that little tidbit (you prolly already knew that, but whatever) but I am sure it could be a little useful.


PS: totally only noticed this thread b/c u posted in Rhye's thread ;p

absolutely ADORE the idea!
 
You could do the third as a really small map where Rome gets a ton of troops... but no reinforcements, and have the human try and hold out against it.

With those new wall units somebody designed, you could do that pretty well! Have gates be cities, and make the objective to capture the city center.

Eh? eh? Itd be pretty cool! ;p
 
Just to say i have not forgotten this - i have been thinking it over a lot over the last month, i have just not had the time to do anything with it.

I have realised that the tech tree was stupid - the techs were indeed far too basic for this time period. However, it is hard to place technological advances in such a small time period.

I have come up with the following techs. Opinions anyone?

Romans

  • Seamanship - Corvus
  • Legions - Increased Legion Size
  • Roman Determination, Roman Patriotism, Roman Discipline
  • Private Vessels

Seamanship

Represents the Roman building of a fleet in 261 BC. Would give the ability to build Quinquiremes (and maybe triremes, weaker, faster ships?). Both can end turn in sea squares. This leads to the Corvus.

Corvus

Represents the Corvus design the Roman ships started using in 259 BC. I was thinking, increases attack strength of quinquiremes, but makes them sink in sea squares. That last bit is because it is suggested that the reason so many Roman ships sunk in storms because they were very unbalanced because of the Corvus.

Legions

Starting Tech that represents the Roman use of legions. Gives the ability to build Hastati, Principes, Triarii and Velites (More on them later). This leads to increased legion size.

Increased Legion Size

A bit iffy on this one. Each Roman legion was approximately 4,500 men at the start of the war, but by the end it was about 6,000. I was thinking about the ability to build larger Legion units, but they have a lower defense to represent the greater disorganisation in this size of legion.

Roman Determination, Roman Patriotism, Roman Discipline

These are techs the Romans start with, which represent unique parts of the Roman culture during the war.

Roman Determination represents the determination to win and win no matter the cost. I was thinking this could be put in to make population costs for units higher than their carthaginian counterparts (if population costs are implemented). This conveys a disadvantage on the Romans, as some parts of Italy were neglected during the war due to all the men joining the army or navy.

Roman Patriotism represents the nationalism of the Romans during the war. It symbolises the fact that Roman units are cheaper that their carthaginian counterparts, because so many men wanted to join up.This leads to Private Vessels.

Roman Discipline explains the higher attack and defense levels of Roman units compared to mercenaries and some Carthaginian units.

Private Vessels

This tech is possible by the starting tech of Roman Patriotism. It represents the fact that once Rome's finances were exhausted after storms and they could not build further ships, some citizens banded together and built a private vessel. This would introduce a new type of ship, cheap and with no upkeep, but which has a bad attack, speed and defense level compared to normal ships.

That just covers Rome for now, and comments are welcome, along with thoughts for Carthage - i think a different tech tree is in order, with civ specific techs like the Romans (Carthaginian Seamanship? Mercenaries?)

Population Costs

Should it be implemented? I think so, because it adds more of an element of conserving your resources, and the concept of limited manpower in Rome and Carthage is actually used. Would also encourage mercenaries, which would not cost manpower.

Population costs would mean non-mercenary units would take population away from the city they are built. For example, a Velite may cost 1 population point, and a quinquirime may cost 2.

Opinions on that?

The Triplex Axcies

This (may be spelt wrong) was the early Roman legion formation. The Hastati (young troops) in the front line. Principes in the seond line, older, more experienced soldiers. Triarii in the back line, armed with spears and the Gladius. Hastati and Principes both had pilums and the Gladius. Velites in the front line to bombard the enemy, then usually shift to the wings to support the cavalry, which were always there.

I want to use the Hastati, Principe and Triarii as separate units. I think they should be used so that using them all in a stack, with velites and cavalry, is a big advantage than just all infantry or cavalry stacks. This could happen like this:

Hastati - Average attack, Average defense
Principe - Good attack, average defense
Triarii - Poor Attack, Excellent defense (spears against cavalry, most experienced troops)
Velites - Average attack, poor defense, defensive bombardment
Cavalry - Good Attack, poor defense, faster than others (sweep around for enemy units)

Opinions on that?

Thats all i am going to write for now, i have other things to say, but not the time to write them.
 
:bump:
Just looking to stimulate some conversation - any opinions on the above topics really would be appreciated. A modder's alcohol is comments.
 
I know what you mean! I was typing a reply yesterday, and then I saw this chair leg that I had ripped off a chair. Being a good student, I decided at that moment to begin carving it with whatever implements I had available... long story short, I ended up with a samurai sword / chair leg, and you ended up without a reply ;p

I vote weak attack on the cavalry because (as you must be aware, having brought up the triplex axcies... i cant find my darn roman strategy book, so I have no idea how that is spelled either. did you get that from Machiavelli's Art of War, or am I just totally mixing my books up? its either that or the Discourses on Livy, because I distinctly remember reading something about how bad events were described as "having come down to the triarii") the heavy cavalry of the period was pathetically weak, lacking stirrups etc.

Alexander used it most effectively as a flank assault force upon an already broken enemy already engaged with the infantry. At Zama, Scipio (by fortunate accident) does much the same.

Only problem with your current idea is that there is no reason to use the hastati... so perhaps give them a bonus HP or some really sick abilities (like hyperspeed fortification and road building... although that is hardly accurate for the period, considering when marius and his mules DO show up ;p) I do not see a way to implement them successfully without either A) eliminating the need for the two specialists, or B) elimintating the need to build it

A player will still choose between them (Rhye's mod anyone?) but you are extremely unlikely to see them together in the same game (and especially not in the same stack).

How about taking a hit point from each unit (starting from the Principes and going down) to represent the lessening numbers of units in each formation? Or go the other way to represent the fact that each formation was reinforced by the ones behind it. OR take the route Loulong did, and make the Triarii and Principes have the same stats and give one a bonus hp and the other defensive bombard (although he did it with pikes and muskets).

The problem is that it renders the velites useless... unless you make them have a low level real bombard so that they can soften up the enemy lines without engaging... but what would be the point of building them when you have catapults...

anyway, before I confuse myself any further (and probably make you think that I am on crack or something ;p) i will go stare at a wall :crazyeye:
 
Aeon221 said:
I vote weak attack on the cavalry because (as you must be aware, having brought up the triplex axcies... i cant find my darn roman strategy book, so I have no idea how that is spelled either. did you get that from Machiavelli's Art of War, or am I just totally mixing my books up? its either that or the Discourses on Livy, because I distinctly remember reading something about how bad events were described as "having come down to the triarii") the heavy cavalry of the period was pathetically weak, lacking stirrups etc

Been getting most of my information from Polybius, with a smattering of Livy as well. Yea, i have read some stuff from the Punic Wars about horsemen getting off and fighting on foot. This happened with the close order Punic and Latin cavalry. The Numidians stayed on their horses.

Aeon221 said:
How about taking a hit point from each unit (starting from the Principes and going down) to represent the lessening numbers of units in each formation? Or go the other way to represent the fact that each formation was reinforced by the ones behind it. OR take the route Loulong did, and make the Triarii and Principes have the same stats and give one a bonus hp and the other defensive bombard (although he did it with pikes and muskets).

Thats a good idea, thanks. The defensive bombard is sensible, because Principe used the pilum, while Triarii did not.

Aeon221 said:
The problem is that it renders the velites useless... unless you make them have a low level real bombard so that they can soften up the enemy lines without engaging... but what would be the point of building them when you have catapults...

Velites are a problem - could make them pretty cheap. Were certainly not outfitted like the legions.
 
Cheap would work... I could see people using them to overrun the enemy. The AI would probably be the biggest user, because humans usually go quality>quantity, but it could work.

You could also give them ATAR or something and make them into a recon force of sorts (like the Conquistadors in the standard version). I know this is not really accurate, but it will give you a nice fast weak scouting unit not appropriate for main line battle.

I dunno... units are tough in this game because you have to convert tactical advantages into strategic ones.

(about Livy and Polybius :doh: should have thought of them. The construction just reminded me of something I had read in machiavelli... haha whatever!)

When do you think you will have a beta out?

I know its a pain to be asked that, but I, for one, am really excited about this scenario!
 
Enter the Latin scholar: You spell it Triplex Acies. I'll be happy to supply you with any other Latin names if you need them!
I like the idea for the scenario very much, I have always wanted to play the First Punic War!
Here a couple of ideas:
- Sicily contained LOADS of wheat. So how about being able to distribute the wheat throughout the empire? i.e. if you have five lots of wheat in a certain city via a trade route you get a bonus of one food on the center city tile.
- Victory conditions: Make lots of victory point locations in Sicily and a couple in Sardinia / Corsica. Grant a massive bonus for conquering either Carthage or Rome. So to win conquer lots of cities on the islands or just the enemy capital plus a bunch of cities.
I can't think of anymore right now, and they're just ideas, but I hope you think about using them and stick to working on the mod!
 
Wheat as a resource is certainly possible. Getting a bonus for having lots of wheat is not. .. thats the editor for you...

Giving victory points for locations is possible. Not sure if you can give varying victory points. I do know that regicide could be activated, assuring the same result (instant victory).

Thanks for the spelling!
 
Cheap would work... I could see people using them to overrun the enemy. The AI would probably be the biggest user, because humans usually go quality>quantity, but it could work.

Probably - but it is quite accurate if the Roman AI built a lot, because they were used a lot in Roman armies.

You could also give them ATAR or something and make them into a recon force of sorts (like the Conquistadors in the standard version). I know this is not really accurate, but it will give you a nice fast weak scouting unit not appropriate for main line battle.

I would rather not - the Romans were useless at scouting at that time. One quote i have read was that the Romans had the attitude that 'if you can't see the opposing army, then they cannot be there'

When do you think you will have a beta out?

When its out ;)

Enter the Latin scholar: You spell it Triplex Acies. I'll be happy to supply you with any other Latin names if you need them!
I like the idea for the scenario very much, I have always wanted to play the First Punic War!

Thanks for the latin.
I have always wanted to play this scenario as well, so when i didn't see it being done, i thought i would make it myself :lol:

- Sicily contained LOADS of wheat. So how about being able to distribute the wheat throughout the empire? i.e. if you have five lots of wheat in a certain city via a trade route you get a bonus of one food on the center city tile.

As Aeon says, not possible with the editing tools available. Nice idea though. Sicily will be loaded with wheat.

- Victory conditions: Make lots of victory point locations in Sicily and a couple in Sardinia / Corsica. Grant a massive bonus for conquering either Carthage or Rome. So to win conquer lots of cities on the islands or just the enemy capital plus a bunch of cities.

I agree - that is where the war was thought. The Romans failed to take Sardinia but took Corsica. Sicily is obviously going to be the main VP area.

About the Carthage/Rome idea, you cannot set different numbers of VPs for different cities. However, they will be the biggest cities on the map, and you can set a number of victory points multiplied by the population of the city, so it would work. VPs will also be set for unit kill.

I can't think of anymore right now, and they're just ideas, but I hope you think about using them and stick to working on the mod!

Thanks for your input, it is always appreciated.

I do know that regicide could be activated, assuring the same result (instant victory).

Yep, it could. But i don't want to do that, because in my opinion even if Rome were taken then the Romans wouldn't give up. That is Romans for you.

Thanks for the comments. I will post some pictures of city placement tomorrow, with some ideas about the Carthaginian tech tree - also ideas about putting in the Numidians and Gauls to be a thorn in the side of the Carthaginians and Romans respectively.
 
Back
Top Bottom