First Three Social Policies

[snarzberry]

Yeah, seems like there is some kind of agreement. Is Liberty now too attractive, is the free GP a bit too much? How could something compete with that when it can come in the first 50 turns and can be adapted to any play style or win condition and offers multiple awesome possible uses?



edit, ok good to hear a different opinion. Stealing workers is very easy so I'm with you there. And expansion is better served by LE you're right, deep tech grabs better served by Liberty. Playstyle is everything I suppose

 

[duxup]

Before the patch I barely, if ever, touched the Liberty tree. Now on almost every game three of my first four SP's are Libs.

I feel the same way. Maybe it is my mid western background "ooh free stuff" but man I like the free stuff...

 

[bhavv]

I disagree. The bigger hammer output from LE is superior than a free settler and worker. It's so easy to steal a worker or 2 and buy a settler that i find Liberty useless for the most part of the game. Only the free GE at the end with meritocracy is appealing for me.

Taking LE early means wasting Legalism on Monuments, I dont think that is worth it. I saved Legalism until it got me 4 free Opera Houses, and will take LE after that.

 

[Tabarnak]

Taking LE early means wasting Legalism on Monuments, I dont think that is worth it. I saved Legalism until it got me 4 free Opera Houses, and will take LE after that.

Again, i think it's more a matter of playstyle. I usually don't bother with temples or other culture buildings excepted UBs. Good synergy between instant expansion borders and a fast early grow.

 

[bhavv]

Again, i think it's more a matter of playstyle. I usually don't bother with temples or other culture buildings excepted UBs. Good synergy between instant expansion borders and a fast early grow.

Actually, I took your advice on board and managed a good synergy between getting Meritocracy, 4 cities + free temples, and Landed Elite by 500 BC:

Spoiler :

I started with building Monument > 2 Settlers then wonder spam in the capital. My first 680 gold went on to purchasing my 4th settler so I had 4 cities placed very early.

I built Monument > Library > Watermill / Granary in each city, and for social policies went with Tradition > Liberty > Citizenship > Meritocracy > Legalism (giving 4 free temples) > Representation from Oracle, and then Landed Elite.

I also got 4 free workers, one from Citizenship and 3 captured from barbs. I agree that Collective Rule + Republic are a waste and not worth wasting early policy picks on. They can be ignored, unless you want a culture win in which case you can pick them up at the end.

I find culture buildings to be very important because I want to be able to fill out the Rationalism + Freedom trees. My previous try was too slow with wasting policies on collective rule + republic.

 

[kamex]

Legalism is great fun. I try not to 'waste' it on monuments. Templeas are good for anyone, but the best winners are Egypt, with the instant 8 happiness, 8 culture and no maintenance, Songhai, with instant 20 culture and no maintenance, or even better, Siam, with instant 12 culture AND 50% science (free Wats).

 

[bhavv]

Siam get Wats for free with Legalism???

Sweet!

 

[kamex]

Siam get Wats for free with Legalism???

Sweet!

Apparently from hat I heard, not tested yet. But it is a culture building.

you need to mm tho so first four cities have monuments and temples, and maybe monasteries if applicable. Also want to time it with the unlocking of education, to get the adv. asap.

 

[Tabarnak]

I just hate to pay 8 maintenance for only 12 culture(assuming 4 cities). I prefer keeping money for a cultural cs and a free luxury. I'm also a warmonger in most of my games...warriors upgrade all the way(warriors instead of monuments).

But the good thing around all this is everyone has something interesting to do from many paths observed. It means that the new patch is somewhat well balanced.

 

[slobberinbear]

I would love it if someone could demonstrate that Honor is equal/balanced to either Liberty or Tradition.

Don't get me wrong ... I LOVE the 1.5x XP social policy in honor ... the great general isn't bad either ... and the garrison +1 happy can be somewhat useful. But I've found that if I go Honor and go warmongering, I am pretty much giving up on ever getting more than 10 policies in the game.

Put another way ... is an Honor-infused player army substantially better than a "normal" army, enough to justify what you give up by going down the Honor tree?

By the way, I imagine that Honor is wonderful in multiplayer.

 

[DaveMcW]

But I've found that if I go Honor and go warmongering, I am pretty much giving up on ever getting more than 10 policies in the game.

Is that because you forgot to puppet, or because you won so fast?

 

[Roghar]

The Tradition/Liberty balance is excellent, they've done a good job there. Honor is definitely lacking except in rare circumstances. The SPs are good in war, but Tradition/Liberty are good all game long. I think one of the early SPs should be a slight (say 10%) reduction in unit cost. Or perhaps a greater reduction(25%) for the capital only.

The opening Honor SP, and the one gifting the Great General, are the ones I'd pick on for replacement.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

To beef up Honor it could also be some sort of boot to Heroic epic. It could give a few hammers, some xp, or a % boost when building units.

 

[bhavv]

I've never played a single civ game as a warmongerer. City building and research is what I like to do.

Culture buildings do cost a lot of maintenance, but playing as Inca gives me a huge reduction in maintenance costs.

Also, if I need to go to war, I've never really needed any more than 4 units to completely obliterate an AI opponent in Civ V.

 

[slobberinbear]

Is that because you forgot to puppet, or because you won so fast?

Guilty as charged. I just don't like puppeting. I need to get over that.

 

[Michl2602]

Siam get Wats for free with Legalism???

Sweet!

The problem here is that Landed Elite is blocked until you researched Education. Not blocking this for too long affords high diplomatic and research-blocking skills.

But if Martin tells the story it sounds easy. When I tried (not at Deity) it wasn't.

Here the full story:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=416112

 

[Firvulag]

I think what Honor really needs is some kind of +x culture for taking cities. This would really draw the focus of the warmonger so they can also afford the other military tree later on.

I tend to Tradition for it's +3/t first when warmongering, leaving the door open for a change of mind to go Liberty or Honor. I don't think Honor is powerful enough to drop both the other early trees, and it would require a quick route to the Industrial era to get the last 2 opened up to get to the other one. Giving Honor some kind of culture gain would allow it to be at the expense of both Tradition and Liberty. And restricting it to only taking cities would reduce it's usefulness in Cultural games, allowing for it to reduce the chance of it being used by culture civs to speed up victory. It could be incorporated, but you'd be dropping one of the later trees for it, and they're all more useful I'd think.

 

[neilkaz]

Honor was nerfed in the Dec patch. Tradition and Liberty received huge buffs in the March patch.

Maybe to make Honor more attractive it should be restored to its original values? .. ie pre Dec patch.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The problem here is that Landed Elite is blocked until you researched Education. Not blocking this for too long affords high diplomatic and research-blocking skills.

But if Martin tells the story it sounds easy. When I tried (not at Deity) it wasn't.

The micro is a serious headache. I screwed it up (by mistiming Cultural alliances) more often than not on my first attempts, getting the Wats around turn 80 rather than turn 70 like you should. Not having (many) specialists that you can pull out to correct errors is a pain.

 

[RedRover57]

Actually, I took your advice on board and managed a good synergy between getting Meritocracy, 4 cities + free temples, and Landed Elite by 500 BC:

Spoiler :

I started with building Monument > 2 Settlers then wonder spam in the capital. My first 680 gold went on to purchasing my 4th settler so I had 4 cities placed very early.

I built Monument > Library > Watermill / Granary in each city, and for social policies went with Tradition > Liberty > Citizenship > Meritocracy > Legalism (giving 4 free temples) > Representation from Oracle, and then Landed Elite.

I also got 4 free workers, one from Citizenship and 3 captured from barbs. I agree that Collective Rule + Republic are a waste and not worth wasting early policy picks on. They can be ignored, unless you want a culture win in which case you can pick them up at the end.

I find culture buildings to be very important because I want to be able to fill out the Rationalism + Freedom trees. My previous try was too slow with wasting policies on collective rule + republic.

Only +20 beaker/turn on turn 140? That seems quite low. Is this standard speed?

With a single city NC first start (Tradition [if you hit a culture ruin], Liberty, Citizenship, Meritocracy - using Meritocracy to bubble Civil Service), plus some well placed RA's you should be about ready to build universities in your cities by that time, which is why I really prefer the single city NC start. It is not uncommon to have around 100 beakers per turn by the time.

I realize that sometimes it is very important to grab those good city sites early, but having such a big tech boost from the NC first start is just too attractive to me.