First Three Social Policies

[bhavv]

No I play on epic and wonderspam before building the NC.

I had 1307 BPT when I won, really have no idea if I could have managed more:

Spoiler :

I started a new game as Russia, did the same again with a 4 city rex, and have them all at 5 pop with a monument, library, and watermill easily within the BCs:

Spoiler :

Currently researching Education

I did the same thing again, no worker training or any buildings other than a monument in the capital: Monument - Settler - Settler - Wonderspam with all the other buildings in the capital rush bought from selling luxuries. I got 3 or 4 free workers from barbs + city states again on top of the free one from Citizenship.

This time I'm also trying to control my GP points to spawn a GS, GM, and GA at 150 points each.

I realize that sometimes it is very important to grab those good city sites early, but having such a big tech boost from the NC first start is just too attractive to me.

Going NC first gives you a strong tech start, but really slows down city development. I'd rather have 4 good cities placed first, and lots of GS and GE generating wonders in the capital. I like to try and pick up Stonehenge, Glib, Oracle, Pyramids and Great Wall first before building the NC.

 

[Tabarnak]

For deity games i think it's a priority to get NC first. Otherwise, you can delay NC almost as long as you want depending of AI tech rate and successful RAs. Sometimes i wait until ADs to build it. At that time the % gain of beakers is lot lower than early turns. If player REX to 4-6 cites and manage to get some libraries in 8+ pop cities, NC is less valuable over time.

In a game played for fun in another thread, i forgot to finish NC in a deity game and i finally built it around turn 170! My tech rate wasn't bad after all. If only i had more RAs and set up universities earlier...

 

[duxup]

Going NC first gives you a strong tech start, but really slows down city development. I'd rather have 4 good cities placed first, and lots of GS and GE generating wonders in the capital. I like to try and pick up Stonehenge, Glib, Oracle, Pyramids and Great Wall first before building the NC.

The NC start for me (I'm playing the middle difficulty) doesn't seem to take long and after that I can try bust out when it comes to expanding / city development.

At this point I'm NC starting all the time although that is likely because I just discovered that it can be useful.

 

[Roghar]

I think what Honor really needs is some kind of +x culture for taking cities. This would really draw the focus of the warmonger so they can also afford the other military tree later on.

I tend to Tradition for it's +3/t first when warmongering, leaving the door open for a change of mind to go Liberty or Honor. I don't think Honor is powerful enough to drop both the other early trees, and it would require a quick route to the Industrial era to get the last 2 opened up to get to the other one. Giving Honor some kind of culture gain would allow it to be at the expense of both Tradition and Liberty. And restricting it to only taking cities would reduce it's usefulness in Cultural games, allowing for it to reduce the chance of it being used by culture civs to speed up victory. It could be incorporated, but you'd be dropping one of the later trees for it, and they're all more useful I'd think.

Yeah, if I’m going Honor I mix and match with Tradition early. I leave Liberty completely, opening the door for Autocracy later (good in combination with Honor, otherwise not worth going for).

The free garrison Tradition ability has great synergy with the Honor garrison happy bonus as your puppeet empire grows late game.

 

[Muskie]

This is a long thread and I'm at least a patch behind, being a Mac guy. I've tried all the three options and I think Tradition works best for me, a peaceful builder type mostly. I like to expand to so I don't compete Tradition at any great speed. I tend to switch to Piety when it becomes available then Patronage if things are going well. Sometimes I just about complete Piety before Patronage is an option. Piety and Patronage are my staple social policies.

The others ones I experiment with but lately I like Freedom. With my last one assuming no great wars break out, is probably Order.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Tradition speeds up 2nd-3rd policy and then comes back to bite you with more expensive later policies, for overall net loss. I see no reason to take it unless you want something deeper in that tree.

 

[lilnev]

Tradition speeds up 2nd-3rd policy and then comes back to bite you with more expensive later policies, for overall net loss. I see no reason to take it unless you want something deeper in that tree.

This is true, and I often avoid it for that reason. I like Patronage third to get to Scholasticism. If I go Tradition, it's probably Trad-Legal-LE, then Patronage fourth. With the +3 culture and the free monuments, the mid-game SPs aren't too slow (though Trad + 4xMonument together is no better than a cultural CS). And your initial cities grow and claim tiles very well. It can be a good path if you've got 3-4 good sites, each claiming multiple resources with their second and third rings

 

[Strategist83]

Haven't read through all four pages so apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned. But:

I really like Tradition's +3 CPT, and I think you get more policies quicker in the long run by taking Tradition first, but you get the Free Settler faster by going straight to Liberty first.

I would say that is bad play. The initial policies of each tree generally aren't as powerful as those deeper in the tree. Each policy you pick increases cost of all following ones. You are only going to have a limited amount of policies. So, even though it gives you that +3 culture early on, you pay for it later by NOT having some other policy that could have been much more useful to you. +3 culture now, but NO Communism later, for instance. Shopping around and picking the first policies from each tree is thus not a good idea (possibly with the exceptions of the initial policies in Freedom and Autocracy, both of which are absurdly good). You should select a few trees and go deep into them.

I think it is better to use social policies to define your general game plan. Tradition and Liberty and more or less each others opposite and thus do NOT mix well. It does not make sense for you to choose Liberty unless you are going to be founding many cities early on. So, instead of that +3 from the capital you could have had Representation and made each city increase policy cost by only +20% instead of 30%, allowing you to rake in that +3 culture from three very early cities. I say again: DO NOT pick Liberty unless you are going to city-spam a lot early on.

 

[Tabarnak]

DO NOT pick Liberty unless you are going to city-spam a lot early on.

You can city spam under Landed Elite. Buy a settler and hard build 2 more. Steal 2 workers along the way. Ok that's only 4 cities but hey your borders expand fast for every city and your growth and hammer output is higher.

 

[Strategist83]

Read a few more posts from this thread. This quote about sums it up:

I sincerely think that they did a good job balancing both of them. But when i play against humans, liberty takers are always falling down somewhere around 800 BC.

I see the same. The reason is this: They're not utilizing Liberty correctly. You don't take Liberty and use it to expand to just 3-4 cities then grow vertically. Then you should have played Tradition instead. 4 cities seems to be the number Tradition is aimed at. Liberty civs certainly want a lot more than that - and if the conditions don't allow for it, don't pick Liberty at all.

 

[Strategist83]

You can city spam under Landed Elite. Buy a settler and hard build 2 more. Steal 2 workers along the way. Ok that's only 4 cities but hey your borders expand fast for every city and your growth and hammer output is higher.

That's true - Landed Elite is kind of REX in that it gives a bonus to every city, even though it's placed under Tradition. You still don't want to pay three policies to unlock it, though, unless it fits with your general strategy of a small, tall empire. If city spam is what you want to do, neither Tradition nor Landed Elite is how you want to do it.

 

[Tabarnak]

Read a few more posts from this thread. This quote about sums it up:



I see the same. The reason is this: They're not utilizing Liberty correctly. You don't take Liberty and use it to expand to just 3-4 cities then grow vertically. Then you should have played Tradition instead. 4 cities seems to be the number Tradition is aimed at. Liberty civs certainly want a lot more than that - and if the conditions don't allow for it, don't pick Liberty at all.

The problem with Liberty is the bonus to get over 6 cities is not high enough. The only real good side is the free gp.

Building settlers in 4 turns instead of 6(quick speed) with Landed Elite? Wow i saved 2 turns woohoo....

 

[eltoddo]

I used to go straight for Meritocracy as my third policy but I think going for Landed Elite is superior in most situations now. I think the first 2 policies are pretty awash no matter what tree you go. But +2 food and 15% growth in all cities is way too good to forfeit. If you decide to go Meritocracy you better have a darn good strategy for that Great Person. (like Persia Chechen Itza or Babylon GL). Otherwise +2 food 15% growth = superior to GP.

 

[Rittmeyer]

If you decide to go Meritocracy you better have a darn good strategy for that Great Person. (like Persia Chechen Itza or Babylon GL). Otherwise +2 food 15% growth = superior to GP.

Or early Scholasticism if you like having your science output doubled for most of the game.

 

[joncnunn]

1. Tradition. That early on, 3 extra cultural a turn is going to greatly speed up the next two policies.

2. Liberty. (Reason being I've probably built a Monument and so now need to wait for Legalism until I have the tech allowing Temples.)

3. Either the free worker or free settler one. I play NC first so it's matter of how close the NC is to finishing.

4. This one is usually the one I didn't pick in #3.

5. At this point I'm picking various Liberty ones until I do have the tech for Temples, when I switch to Legalism)

6. Eventually I will grab all underneath Liberty other than Republic. Under tradition I often but not always skip the no unit support in cities policy, and sometimes skip the increased wonder production, but will always grab the rest of Tradition.

Only time I've picked anything under Honor was playing the Mongolian scenario.

What is your typical SP order (if you have one), and how important are getting the early SPs to you?

 

[Mike Lowe]

Quick question:

I usually use my starting warrior to "explore" as he can kill too. What are the advantages of a scout really other than no loss of movement? Seems silly to build early on as those are some valuable turns.

 

[Civsassin]

Quick question:

I usually use my starting warrior to "explore" as he can kill too. What are the advantages of a scout really other than no loss of movement? Seems silly to build early on as those are some valuable turns.

Scouts are much cheaper to build than warriors, and their movement allows them to move to terrain much faster, snatching up ancient ruins and meeting CSs much more quickly.

 

[walkerjks]

Quick question:

I usually use my starting warrior to "explore" as he can kill too. What are the advantages of a scout really other than no loss of movement? Seems silly to build early on as those are some valuable turns.

Killing is overrated. 25 gold for a hut? At what cost? lots of turns of resting and recovering in the wilderness where I can't open up new territory?

Look, I love my starting warrior. Can help with early barbarian invasions. Can clear out a nearby barbarian hut, even it it takes multiple attack-rest-heal cycles to do so. He's necessary. You can also use warriors if you are going early patronage to clear out huts/free workers to get some relatively early friends/allies.

But for meeting with AIs and CSs as quickly as possible, nothing beats a couple scouts (or a trireme where appropriate).

 

[slobberinbear]

Killing is overrated. 25 gold for a hut? At what cost? lots of turns of resting and recovering in the wilderness where I can't open up new territory?

Look, I love my starting warrior. Can help with early barbarian invasions. Can clear out a nearby barbarian hut, even it it takes multiple attack-rest-heal cycles to do so. He's necessary. You can also use warriors if you are going early patronage to clear out huts/free workers to get some relatively early friends/allies.

But for meeting with AIs and CSs as quickly as possible, nothing beats a couple scouts (or a trireme where appropriate).

In the early going, barbs are to be avoided ... they just slow you down, as mentioned here. Scouts are cheaper and better for scouting, and their combat weakness is a reminder of sorts of their role. You won't 'accidentally' get into combat with them, at least on offense.

 

[bhavv]

If you decide to go Meritocracy you better have a darn good strategy for that Great Person. (like Persia Chechen Itza or Babylon GL). Otherwise +2 food 15% growth = superior to GP.

Using it to build a manufactory for your capital so early on in the game already is the most powerful strategy.

Pick up Meritocracy to build a manufactory, and dedicate your capital to wonderspamming if you want to. Its far more powerful than wasting it on a wonder rush, or getting a GS instead, the only civ that maybenefit from a GS instead is babylon - people have been using the two free GS's from Writing + Meritocracy to build two academies very early in the game, which combined with NC allows them to blitz through the first two ages.

Landed Elite can then be specced next giving you enough time to settle 4 cities with monuments already in place, so you get 4 free temples, and then +2 food plus +15% growth per city.

Killing is overrated. 25 gold for a hut? At what cost? lots of turns of resting and recovering in the wilderness where I can't open up new territory?

No, it isnt over rated, you are just under rating the usefulness of free gold. Selling open borders for around 50g, luxuries for 300g even if you only have 1, and taking out barb camps for 25+ depending on speed setting provides with an immense early income.

But for meeting with AIs and CSs as quickly as possible, nothing beats a couple scouts (or a trireme where appropriate).

Exploration and CS's are definitely very over rated. I've never had to rely on either to get a powerful start and win the game.