First Three Social Policies

[Hammurbabble]

The key effects of Honor (GG and XP)

I don't consider those the key effects of Honor; in fact, those are the ones I don't bother with. GGs are very easy to get, so the only thing that SP does is give you one for the first war you fight. Well, the first battle or two of the first war, really, because you'll have one before the war is over. As for the XP, it's nice but there are nicer things out there.

For me, the best part about Honor (and this is only true if I'm going for Domination) is the half-price unit upgrades. To get that you also have to take the 10% bonus for a unit in the next tile and the 1 happy point per garrison unit, which are also nice.

My first SP choice, every game, is to unlock Tradition. My second, every game except if I'm going for a culture win, is to unlock Liberty. (I don't do that for culture because I don't build enough cities for the 1 culture per city to be worth it.) My third depends on what kind of victory I'm after. Unless I'm going for Domination, I never unlock Honor at all.

 

[Teagen]

Honor does seem really gimp. But I really feel that it's going to always either be gimp or super-powerful....and never in any middle ground.

 

[CYZ]

Honor does seem really gimp. But I really feel that it's going to always either be gimp or super-powerful....and never in any middle ground.

This is true, and it's fine that way for a millitary branch IMO.

 

[kamex]

I believe that since the patch, Honor does need a slight buff. Perhaps adding + 50% military production in the capital to the GG SP would componsate.

 

[slobberinbear]

I believe that since the patch, Honor does need a slight buff. Perhaps adding + 50% military production in the capital to the GG SP would componsate.

That's too overpowered, Kamex. I'd rather see something that addressed conquest ... perhaps reduced unhappiness effects after annexing, discounted courthouses.

 

[Nurgle84]

I experimented with Honor in the last game:

I played as Songhai, King difficulty. First pick was Tradition, then Honor, Discipline, Oracel for professional Army and finally oligarchy. That allowed my to quickly upgrade from Horsemen to Mandekalu Cavalry and pillage Russia. The combination of Oligarchy and Warrior Caste reduced the unhappiness considerably without any cost except some gold for rush bought units, which russia was so generous to give me for conquering their cities

 

[RogerN]

Even when I'm warmongering I rarely go for Honor. I find that if I don't take advantage of early growth/economy bonuses from Tradition or Liberty then I fall behind in science too quickly. And with Liberty/Tradition you can still choose to leverage your increased growth toward building a larger military or researching more military tech. But with Honor you get locked into a single strategy, *and* you risk a lower SP acquisition rate due to lack of culture bonuses.

Going for Honor later in the game is similarly hard to stomach because the immediate benefits for unlocking the branch (bonus to combat vs barbarians) is practically useless. All the barbarians are wiped out by that point. There's always another SP available with significantly better advantages.

Now if Honor provided some military freebies in the early game then that might change my mind. Tradition grants free culture buildings while Liberty grants free settlers, workers, and GP. Seems like a free Barracks or two would even the score ('course I'd probably sell all but 1 of them). Yes, I know Honor can grant a Great General, but those guys pop up all the time anyway.

 

[André Alfenaar]

In vanilla I often chose Honor, but after lastest patch I have stopped doing so. A combination of Tradition and Liberty is just too powerful early on. And with the advent of Renaissance Freedom is just a too powerful SP to keep it waiting.

 

[slobberinbear]

I experimented with Honor in the last game:

I played as Songhai, King difficulty. First pick was Tradition, then Honor, Discipline, Oracel for professional Army and finally oligarchy. That allowed my to quickly upgrade from Horsemen to Mandekalu Cavalry and pillage Russia. The combination of Oligarchy and Warrior Caste reduced the unhappiness considerably without any cost except some gold for rush bought units, which russia was so generous to give me for conquering their cities

Good description of a strategy to use honor. Personally, I like the bonus xp policy and the early great general. The problem is that your policy accumulation comes to a grinding halt unless precautions are taken .. Oracle, not founding/annexing many cities, diverting hammers into culture buildings, etc. Also, many current military strategies rely on beelining, bulbing, and exploitation of the AI trading process, which honor does nothing to aid. I therefore conclude its best current use is in an early rush situation, possibly with an early UU.

 

[Nurgle84]

Actually the described strategy is not very useful for a rush, but more for a medieval war strategy. Half-price upgrades makes only sense, if you have something to upgrade. The other problem is, that their are only a few cultures that can work this strategy. (Songhai and Spain more then other I think)

 

[neilkaz]

In vanilla I often chose Honor, but after lastest patch I have stopped doing so. A combination of Tradition and Liberty is just too powerful early on. And with the advent of Renaissance Freedom is just a too powerful SP to keep it waiting.

For me, for honor to be somewhat viable to compete with Liberty and Tradition, it needs to be put back to Vanilla levels with 15% per adjecent and 2x experience.

 

[kamex]

For me, for honor to be somewhat viable to compete with Liberty and Tradition, it needs to be put back to Vanilla levels with 15% per adjecent and 2x experience.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. In the patch before last, there was a huge nerf to early military, and thus honor. The last patch greatly boosted tradition and liberty, but not honor, making it the weakest of the three.

 

[troytheface]

Fact- any upgrade strategy makes Honor superior to tradition and liberty

Fact- Island Citystates (standard, continents, there are always islands on standard, continents)
as targets

the evidence is clear- Honor, for the superior

 

[slobberinbear]

Fact- any upgrade strategy makes Honor superior to tradition and liberty

Fact- Island Citystates (standard, continents, there are always islands on standard, continents)
as targets

the evidence is clear- Honor, for the superior

Fact - I have never known whether your posts are actual opinion or pure shtick.

I suspect that someday I will arrive to the conclusion that I've been reading the posts of Civfanatics' resident Onion writer. Either way, I remain mildly amused.

 

[Meanness]

When I play on Immortal, I usually have to go Liberty -> Free Settler or I simply can't block off enough land to settle four cities. I then rush buy a library (380gp) and build NC. If I sit around building the NC first and don't spit out a settler, I miss out on prime spots, and am often limited to 2-3 cities.

For those who go the Tradition route, how do you get that first settler out quick enough to make a difference? I rarely have enough gold early to rush buy both a settler(500gp) and a library, so NC is delayed, which means later IW and Scholasticism.

 

[MadDjinn]

yeah.. .It'd be nice if honour was considered a good choice again. Not 'the choice' but 'a' choice.

Keep in mind though that any bonus to honour just helps the AI even more. (they still seem to like it) So 'free' stuff is not as nice as you might want it to be.

Askia, Darius, Alex and Monte would still benefit from going honour first though. Maybe not as much as going Liberty/Tradition, but at least for a start.

 

[Muskie]

This is one of the best threads on this forum. I have more thoughts, but am on the iPhone now so they can wait a day or so...

 

[Antarion]

I believe that since the patch, Honor does need a slight buff. Perhaps adding + 50% military production in the capital to the GG SP would componsate.

ever played honor with aztecs, germans or songhai? its fine !

 

[MadDjinn]

ever played honor with aztecs, germans or songhai? its fine !

it's 'fine', but sub-optimal even for domination games if you take it first.

Early game, you don't really need Honour to run over an AI. Even worse, going to Meritocracy makes it faster to get Longswords/etc.

 

[Antarion]

try to spamm warrior n archers and conquer a hostile city state without the free general.

of course i dont take it always as first pick, mostly i combine honor with smth else like 1p in tradition (aztecs although i pick just honor and later on piety; with japan u can also abuse honor to its maximum)

meritocracy is not better then warrior caste regarding unhappiness and so on. honor is not that bad as you believe. of course if you just exploit vs AIs its smth else, but not in MP.