First time FfH2 player -> Need help...

[Darkness]

So, last night I downloaded FfH2 and played around a little bit.

Needless to say I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing (although I've played Civilization for years and am actually fairly decent at it, but this game just 'feels' much more complex).

I could use some pointers, like:

- What's a good civ to start with?
- What must I focus on in the early game? (which techs/buildings/units are important for me to get reasonably quickly ?)
- What do I need to watch out for?
- Is there any good material to read about playing this mod (I've already downloaded Xienwolf's manual and read the tutorial, but I really need more help) ?

Thanks!

 

[Monkeyfinger]

- What's a good civ to start with?

First, say a bit about how you like to play civ games. You a warmonger? A peaceful builder? Diplomat? Someone who switches gears as the game goes on? Have a strong opinion on CE vs. SE, or even know what that means? These things help to pick out a good starting civ.

- What must I focus on in the early game? (which techs/buildings/units are important for me to get reasonably quickly ?)

Exploration for roads
Agriculture for farms
Ancient chants for monuments (same as civ4 building) and Agri + AC leads to:
Education for cottages (the only option for commerce at first)
Crafting then mining for mines and forest chopping, and the 2 techs it allows:
Bronze working, because copper makes your troops stronger, and it lets you chop jungle
Archery, for lumbermills (don't ask) and, well, archers

Those are the bare essentials, and some civs have some other tech they really need to prioritize (Lanun needing fishing ASAP is a huge example.) Beyond that you have a lot of options.

- What do I need to watch out for?

Barbs are weaker but way more numerous and aggressive in FfH, compared to normal civ. Overall they're more of a threat since they attack earlier, the numbers mean you need more defense even though they're not as strong individually, there's no great wall in FfH, and they like to pillage.

AIs like to attack very early, and not necessarily you. Build a strong force of warriors early to fight off potential attacks + the barbs. If a neighboring AI turns his attention on another AI instead, be ready to jump in and capaitalize.

Religions are very different from each other in FfH - IMO, even to the point where choice of religion is more important than choice of civ. Talk about your playstyle and we can help you here too.

- Is there any good material to read about playing this mod (I've already downloaded Xienwolf's manual and read the tutorial, but I really need more help) ?

This board.

 

[Demus]

Like with normal civ, your first priority should be setting up a basic territory, while increasing commerce. As monkeyfinger said, education is pretty important here. Look at your starting location and the immediate surroundings before making a final decision though. If you start with 3 or 4 sources of reachable dye or silk, consider going calender. Same with gold/gems and mining. Hook up your starting res. rather sooner than later.
With one or two exceptions, always get an economy going before specialising down a specific tech lane.
About these tech lanes: where civ4 is pretty steamlined, requiring you to research all available techs sooner or later, FFH is a lot more specialised. You pretty much have to pick a specific area to focus on, like melee units, magic, mounted units (hippus!), recon, archery or devine troops. Different paths appeal to different civs. This is more clearly described in the manual, but looking at a civ's UU's and UB's can give a clear indication as well.

Generally, civs like the bannor and the grigori are recommended for first-time players.
The bannor because their playstyle is pretty lineair. Focus on melee troops (metal working line)early game (axemen), and founding the religion "Order", while cottage-spamming like crazy (seriously, as much as you can possibly cope with). Then head for their unique civic "crusade". Start a war with someone, watch units pop up from each developed town, and go on a general rampage. Don't forget these units disappear when you're not at war though, so declare on the next target before you finish off the first .

The grigori have 2 features which are unique to FFH, but these two make them a nice learner civ.
The first is their leader trait "agnostic". This basically means, they can't adopt a religion, they can't even research the techs for those religions. This means they've got one HUGE choice they don't have to make anymore, making the game a bit simpler.
The other feature are their "adventurers". These are combat units, generated like GP's (don't worry, you'll pop your fist before you're even capable of getting other types of GP's). They can be upgraded to every normal combat unit, with 1 added promotion: "hero". This promo allows them to slowly gather exp over time (1 point per turn up to 100 exp), as well as opening up some specific very useful promotions (heroic strenght and defence, and twincast).
With the grigori, you can more easily adapt to the less units, higher experience fights that FFH offers compared to normal BTS, without worrying about religions too much.

 

[Darkness]

First, say a bit about how you like to play civ games. You a warmonger? A peaceful builder? Diplomat? Someone who switches gears as the game goes on?

I can do both warmongering and building pretty well. Won regular CIV MP games using both basic strategies.

I was leaning towards a builder strategy, since that will allow me to (somewhat) lean back and let the game come to me, instead of rushing into the game (other civilizations)...

Have a strong opinion on CE vs. SE, or even know what that means?

What's CE and SE ?

 

[Demus]

CE = cottage economy
SE = specialist economy

some civs are more biased towards a specialist economy, other more towards a cottage economy

 

[JFSebastian]

What's CE and SE ?

Cottage Economy (CE)
The bulk of your wealth and science is generated from the commerce generated from cottages.

Specialist Economy (SE)
The bulk of your wealth or science is generated from specialists supported by farms. Your wealth or science may often be concentrated in specialized cities that are enhancing the specialist's output.

Most often I find myself combining the two.

My advice is to go through the manual and read the description for some of the civs. Pick one that sounds like fun and then read the full entry for that civ to get a heads up on what its special buildings, units and abilities are. Dive in and enjoy the surprises.

 

[Darkness]

CE = cottage economy
SE = specialist economy

some civs are more biased towards a specialist economy, other more towards a cottage economy

Oh, right... The choice between farms and cottages...
I didn't know there were abbreviations for that... :?

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Kael]

I usually recommend new players start with Mahala of the Doviello. She doesnt need building to make most of her units so its more like a typical Civ4 experience.

You may also want to play the Grand Menagerie scenario (to play a scenario from the Main menu select Single Player -> Play a Scenario -> Fall from Heaven II Scenarios) or the Gift of Kylorin scenario as they are good introductions to the game.

But I have a question for you. What is the most confusing for a new player? What could we do to make it easier to jump into?

 

[Grey Fox]

Might not be that of a good idea to start with Gift of Kylorin. I'd wait with that till after at least one regular game.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The Elohim are also excellent for a new player, I would expect. Nothing too crazy, at least not until you conqueror some cities, and you have 2 big "get out of jail free cards", your world spell makes your lands invulnerable for 20 turns, and you hero can end any war (one time only).
So if a war goes badly because you are just trying stuff out, it won't be the end of the game.

 

[PanzerWolf]

But I have a question for you. What is the most confusing for a new player? What could we do to make it easier to jump into?

I can maybe give you an answer as I still remembered how it was in the beginning It's actually the same "issue" I have with every huge mod that basically changes everything; the tech tree is now a completely new thing to learn. Units and mechanics that I'm (well, now was ) used to, are changed. I would normally just start the mod/ game and try it out, but as I play the old fashion way from Civ, I soon get lost. But with FfH2, I really wanted to get it going, so I started to read more about it to get a better grip of how it works. The FAQ, manual and fairly updated Civilopedia to look through, really helped, so the tools for a beginner is here. (S)he must just be pointed to it.

BTW, my first game was with the Khazad and was fairly ok (0.33) when I finally sat down and made up my mind to try this mod. It wasn't untill later I understood what Hyborem was and why all that land was burning. And the surprise was huge when Basium took my best city (I built the gate for the reduction in war weariness... )

 

[Darkness]

But I have a question for you. What is the most confusing for a new player? What could we do to make it easier to jump into?

Big issues:

- Unfamiliar tech tree, so my usual starting strategy needs a thorough revision
- Worker actions are not the same as in regular CIV (required techs, etc.)
- World improvements? You know, the one of a kind thingy's. They're supposed to be special, but I can't find anywhere what every different world improvement does. I scouted one (can't remember which one, and I got two barbarian units (including a 8 strenght ogre) on turn 3...
- Civic: Lots to absorb in a single go...
- What to build/do at the start of the game. In regular CIV the first 70-75 turns are vital (at least at the higher levels) and here I don't have a clue what to do. That's kind of disheartening, since my 'feeling' based on reqular CIV tells me that if I mess up the start, then I am pretty much screwed. Although on noble (which I played in FfH2) it's probably not that bad. But the complexity is still somewhat repelling (really didn't want to use the word, but couldn't think of any other), because there is very little that is familiar that you can latch on to...

I am sure that when I get a bit more familiar with FfH2 I will like it a lot...

What would help?
Perhaps a somewhat more extensive tutorial (in-game?), to get people started? I think if a player can get into a game with some help/suggestions (like the regular CIV tutorial), then that would greatly help to get started...
(perhaps a beginners game, to be started like a scenario, or something like that?)

 

[Kael]

Yeap, I understand exactly what your saying. My challenge is that even if I provide detailed descriptions for each its still a lot of detailed descriptions to swallow all at once.

Most of the people here have played so many games that we have memorized patterns for most of the stuff, so we forget how many details there are.

But I think I am going to add a popup screen for the first game that talks about different teching strategies, explorable lairs and points new users to the concepts section of the pedia.

Thanks for the feedback, this is the type of info I need to hear.

 

[Kyroshill]

I remember my first game.... I set it to random just to see what the game was like.

So... *pop*... I'm the Luchuirp....

Imagine my frustration when I discovered I couldn't build workers!!! :suicide:

 

[notque]

I remember world improvements too at the beginning. Extremely frustrating to spend all this time on something you expect to help you a lot and find out you built guys that will attack you too.

 

[Grey Fox]

Just make sure to make it a player option to turn the popups off (like Tutorial Off).

 

[Thunder_Gr]

In my first game, I opened the civilopedia and searched for something helpful. As there was nothing focused to new players, I picked the FFH concepts and started reading. It was enlightening enough to get me into the feeling of FFH world. After that, I was looking every new building/unit on the civilopedia (well tried to), and the most frustrating thing when I saw a new button for a spell or a new unit to build was that there was nothing more than "no description yet" or no text at all...

Edit: Especially conserning the magical shperes promotion, whose help text does not describe what the spell given does, and some of them they did not have a description of what the spell does in civilopedia, either...

 

[WarKirby]

I'd say Calabim is a good starter civ. Especially under Flauros.

Try to found your capital on a coast, and go for fishing. That will get you a lot of early commerce and negate the need for cottages for a little while.

Failing that, prioritize your research paths towards what resources are around you. Specifically, commercial resources get top priority. silk, dye, gold, gems, etc should be a primary focus on harnessing if you have them, with calendar or mining respectively.

 

[Darkness]

OK. so I started another game.

I picked Einion Logos as leader, noble level, erebus map.
Founded my capital and went scouting with the scout. Kept the warrior in the capital, because there was a goblin fort nearby.
Scout pops a hut: Some dwarfs apparently have some problem with lizard folk in the mines. I pick the side of the dwarfs and get 2 axeman. 3 Lizards appear that kill my settler. The next few turns are spent killing the lizards. After that I destroy the goblin fort. A barrow is close by too, which sends skeletons at me. This becomes annoying after a bit, so I destroy that too.

Now, after 150 turns, I have 3 cities (is that good or bad?), and I am building a settler to found a fourth. I am on a small piece of land, enclosed by mountains on the north, west and south and ocean on the east, but I have no way of leaving this piece of land by any means other than using some ships. I've met Sabathiel, he's beyond the mountains to the south, but I could see his borders.

My questions:
- Very little happened in those 150 turns. Is that normal or is that due to my relative isolation ?
- Progress was slow (technologies came in very slowly). To be expected ?
- Units: For over 100 turns all I could build was warriors and scouts. Did I focus on the wrong techs? What techs are "must-have" for some decent units ?
- Buildings: I had very little building options in this time. Again, did I focus on the wrong techs? What techs allow "good/essential" buildings ?
- I have the "Standing Stones" in my territory. According to the civiclopedia these stones give 1 extra happy face for all cities close by. How far does this effect reach ?
- I have this blueish mana resource just north of my capital. I want to hook it up, but how do I do that ? Elementalism is still far away. Is that really my only option ?
- I can comfortably fit 6-7 cities on the piece of land I have available. Is that enough to build a decent empire in FfH2 ?
- Barbarians: After killing the lizards and destroying the goblin fort and the barrow I have seen no barbarians whatsoever (50-60 turns and counting). Is this normal, or am I just really lucky here ?

Thanks!

 

[DemonMaster]

Very little happened in those 150 turns. Is that normal or is that due to my relative isolation ?

Sometimes, it usually depends on the map generated, but unless you have a serious barbarian threat, then it can appear slow (to get the dwarven axemen is really a powerboost).

Progress was slow (technologies came in very slowly). To be expected ?

I usually have a tech rate of 12-20 turns for the starting techs, depending on starting location and civ.

Units: For over 100 turns all I could build was warriors and scouts. Did I focus on the wrong techs? What techs are "must-have" for some decent units ?

That sounds normal. I usualy build scouts and warriors every now and then a settler (never unguarded) and a worker (usually only one during that time, its enough, you cannot do much anyway).

Buildings: I had very little building options in this time. Again, did I focus on the wrong techs? What techs allow "good/essential" buildings ?

Mysticism, Knowledge of ..., and Bronzeworking is what I usually try to hit first, the order can depend on civ and in the case of Knowledge (I have forgotten the name), it depends if I play a magic strong civ or magic weak civ.

I have this blueish mana resource just north of my capital. I want to hook it up, but how do I do that ? Elementalism is still far away. Is that really my only option ?

You can go for Divination, Necromancy, etc. there are more.

I have to stop, since I have a break.