Fix the 5th trash game

[Cam_H]

solid plays

! "Here ... take my tech?" !

 

[cabert]

! "Here ... take my tech?" !

someone here already has alphabet?
Now I must play to be allowed to open those spoilers!

 

[FeedBack]

! "Here ... take my tech?" !

I didn't understand this too....

Spoiler :

Only open if you already played!

Spoiler :

I was just trying to make cabert curious to play faster.
Actually, Cam did a regarding this!
And, please, if you have the time.. Would you explain me why all these laughs? English is not my native language...

If you didn't play and read this, feel ashamed!

 

[KMadCandy]

take your time, i'm in no rush to get my "Trash Queen" title i still think i will, but waiting adds to the suspense *giggle*

I'll put another rule that the same guy cannot be trash game in the same round in 2 consecutive games. I'm the captain, ain't I?

you are the cap'n but i shall object if you start making rules for "guys". especially since that's what got me into this mess in the first place, was a post about all the wives! *gigglefest*

ps i really am just joking, in case anybody can't tell. i grew up with 2 brothers, friends and i call each other "dude" in RL sometimes, just as a figure of speech, i'm used to all that stuff. so don't worry and go putting his/her in all of your sentences for fear that i'll go on a rampage. it's just that it's oh so fun to tease!

potential good news for our survival: i started my own game to practice the stuff i'm out of practice with (barbs, normal speed, vassal states not disabled, i haven't even played Gandhi in warlords i think). i made my own map, and turned down the difficulty a notch since i won't have you wiseguys ... errr ... i meant your expertise and advice ... to help me. i put in the leaders that i've met but that's no guarantee that they'll be our neighbors. anyway, if i die, i'm not killing all of us, and at the very least i'll re-learn fog-busting and get a sense of when they stir up trouble (even if it's learning the hard way). i've played with barbs but not ever on normal speed probably.

of course i world-buildered in the Great Wall at my capital on turn 1. nah, just kidding.

 

[cabert]

I was getting anxious to read the spoilers so I coawed my wife into letting me play, and rushed my turns. Here they are :

Spoiler :

In a space race, money is just as important as science ($ rushing!), and a good way to make $ is to have one or 2 shrines.
This is why I went to religions.

turn 0 :
I move the warrior to the hill, not much to see
It's very rare for me, but I move the settler to have the rice in the fat cross.
I start researching polytheism and start building a warrior.

Nothing much up to 3840 BC : border pop, so I start working a river side elephant.
I met bismarck east of our capital. It's a scout, so he may come from quite far.

A bit later I grow the capital to size 2. One more turn for the warrior so I let him finish, then go for a fast worker.

In 3560 BC, I found hinduism. next tech : hunting.
The initial warrior kill a panther. I let him heal.

In 3220BC, hunting is in, I select agri as next tech (rice!)
Another panther gives my initial warrior combat 1 (heading to medic)

gold from a hut

the fast worker goes to an elephant for camping. Next build started (not necessarily to be finished) is stonehenge, to let the capital grow.
Map from a hut.

In 3080BC, I found a coast.
A wolf suicides to offer me 1XP.
In 3000, agri is in.
AH next.

at size 3, I switch to a settler. I have no idea where to send him. Let's hope for horses.

saw a celtic archer+settler. Brennus is my favourite target. Don't know why .

AH in. No horses in sight. Next tech : Bronze working. Elephants are good, but a bit late.
Brennus settles us (we won't leave him this city, will we?) a pretty good city : cows, rice, double spice, dye. No iron working = useless city for a while.
A lion suicides against my brave warrior (in the open ). I found cyrus. Another favourite target of mine.

I lack exploration on the NE, so I send out my garison warrior.

I'm 4 turns away from BW while 2 turns away from the settler.

I'm certainly not safe from the trash game

 

[KMadCandy]

yay for wives! have you laid the foundation for your "can i take the computer on our holidays?" diplomatic attempt yet? look up her favorite food, generous trades, gifting luxuries, that sort of thing. don't forget potential "+10 you were very thoughtful and did the dishes without me even asking!" i don't recommend a military approach. even if she capitulates, she could refuse to give you that one computer resource and then you guys at war, not good!

as for the actual game...

Spoiler :

saw a celtic archer+settler. Brennus is myfavourite target. Don't know why

really? i hate that guy! i've been up against him numerous times and i cannot recall a single time he did NOT have jumbos. he totally rigs the RNG i think. at the end, he always ends up dead and i end up alive, but it still makes it harder than it would have been if he didn't cheat like that.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Well done, Cabert. I hope you didn't promise her too much. You never know when you need time for the next round and what you'll have to promise at that point.

So, if I see this correctly, we now only need the savegame from mice. The last time I saw him posting, he was having trouble with a mod in the customassets folder. I wonder if he was able to fix those problems?


I have watched all of the other savegames.

How does this voting work? Are we going to argue about the merits of each approach or is it just a blind vote? I assume it will be the first...

 

[pigswill]

Previously discussion of various sets was open but the voting itself was secret. I myself favour secret voting: I don't want to know who voted my game as trash!

 

[KMadCandy]

i figure if anybody would rather have blind voting as far numbers, then let's go that way. IMO as long as we have open discussion about strengths/weaknesses of the games played, that's the part we learn from. no sense hurting anybody's feelings. so i'm in favor of "go blind since one prefers that way" and not potentially hurt one even if the majority don't care open/blind. but we do need discussion and bickering, that's fun and educational!

speaking as " of not realizing how early you need to fogbust on normal speed", is there a rule against voting for your own game if you really think it leaves us in the worst position for the future? i am going to honestly compare the games, i haven't pre-decided, but i do wonder.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I don't care about blind voting or not, my feelings are not easily hurt. But I do agree that it might be better. It's never nice to see everyone voting your game as 'the trashiest'.

I do hope that I get some honest comments about the bad or less optimal moves in my game. I actually think that after all comments are made, you can often guess what most people will vote. But still, it's not nice to actually see your game voted 'the thrashiest' with a 8-1 score or something like that (where you voted for 1 other player).

 

[pigswill]

No, you're not allowed to vote for yourself (either as best or trash game).

 

[shyuhe]

maybe I missed something... but how exactly do we vote?

 

[pigswill]

We vote 3pts for worst (or best), 2pts for 2nd worst/best, 1 pt for3rd worst/best. Cabert nominates a returning officer for the round. We pm our votes to the returning oficer who tallies the scores and then posts the 'winner' i.e. highest vote total with posting any scores.

 

[mice]

Sorry to hold things up.

Ive had big problems with my PC. Nothing to do with the game, but it did require a reinstall, so I'm back in business now.

Will post my save in a few hours.

 

[cabert]

I'll be the returning officer of this round. (pigswill explained the mechanics already : no voting for yourself, 3 votes for the worst game, 2 votes for second worst, 1 vote for 3d worst)
Secret voting, no bashing.
Please wait for mice before voting.
I'll close the votes saturday morning french time (provided mice posts his game in the next 24h). This is 48h from now, you should have time to open the games and make yourself an opinion.

My way to do it is to check my criteria for each game, then look for anything "special" (like a settler without escort nor fogbuster or a dual or triple holy city ). I usually give out my criteria (I already did) and my opinion on the games regarding those criteria. Except in the rare case where one game is especially bad in every regard, this doesn't really point on who I vote for, but it may give hints.
If anybody is hurt, just say so.

My feelings are easily hurt, so if you vote for my game, do it nicely (like "you know I love you, but your game is still the worst") .

 

[mice]

All the elements of a trash save are here. Meandering tech path , unworked tiles, it's got the lot.

No need for a spoiler as all others are in.

Settled on spot, decided to not go for a religion. AH - Wheel - B/W - Agric

Warrior to pop 2 , then worker, warrior .

Huts gave a scout, a warrior, and gold.

Buddhism went to Cyrus. Bismark and Brennus met.

Settler on the way to my site in the jungle. It will be great after iron working and a lot of clearing, with 2 food, grassland and hills, and before IW it can work bronze and food.

Worker developed the elephants and the cows , and a mine because no techs for farms or cottages. Delhi at 3 pop.

 

[cabert]

Cabert, you are the leader here, so please take a look and tell me if I should remove some signs or shorten the planning section in my text file. I already reloaded my save and removed some signs.

By the way. I think that reading the planning of other players can be very helpful. A savegame by itself doesn't tell a lot about how someone plays. Of course, once the instructions/planning become too detailed and another player just tries to follow those instructions by the letter, then the learning experience (and fun) is diminished.

Although I agree with the planning = learning part, you went a bit far in the planning section of your text file (I couldn't open it before, since I had not played sorry).
What is done is done, and since you had so much luck with huts and fights (+ good playing, but that was expected ), I don't think we'll enjoy your game in the next round. So all this planning is good for the learning, and won't spoil the game.
The turnlog and thoughts you put in it are great, keep it up, but please don't go too far in the planning section in the next round.

 

[FeedBack]

About the voting: I think it's better be safe than sorry and use the secret voting system. But I must admit that I got really curious last game to see the results, at least nameless numbers, like a private poll.
My feelings do get hurt, but my curiosity is always greater than that.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Although I agree with the planning = learning part, you went a bit far in the planning section of your text file (I couldn't open it before, since I had not played sorry).
What is done is done, and since you had so much luck with huts and fights (+ good playing, but that was expected ), I don't think we'll enjoy your game in the next round. So all this planning is good for the learning, and won't spoil the game.
The turnlog and thoughts you put in it are great, keep it up, but please don't go too far in the planning section in the next round.

Ok, I'll do less planning next time, sorry. I'll focus a bit more on 'the big picture' in planning like Cam_H already mentioned.

Before the blind votes there will be some discussion, right? I mean, what can you learn without some discussion. Or am I missing the point? I think, I'll start in a few hours. First I'll defend my own moves, then I'll post some compliments and criticism on the other players moves. People can react to that if they want, maybe I'm missing their strategy. I will only vote Friday evening/night Dutch/French time.

Oh, for people who think it can help them: here you can find a time converter. It can be useful if you don't know the time difference between France (where Cabert lives) and your home.

 

[cabert]

Before the blind votes there will be some discussion, right? I mean, what can you learn without some discussion. Or am I missing the point?

You're too logical .
The learning thing is not about discussion really.
The discussion are numerous across the forum, including very developped strats.
The learning is more from seeing what other people did, when you open the save. Of course, pointing some things you wouldn't have done (be it good or bad) here helps this learning phase (for you and for others who may not have noticed the difference).
The other point is about detailled reports, and pointing the strategy involved.

For instance, many of us went for a religion. Many of us went for hinduism.
Some of us (you included) stated that polytheism was a better path than meditation. Some indicated why :
- AIs tend to go for meditation first (not always true IMHO, and in most games buddhism was founded a lot later than hinduism, making me think that Brennus tried polytheism first and came out a bit short, then only tried for meditation. So if one of tried poly > med he may have gotten both. I may try in a second attempt, just for fun)
- Poly opens better techs (literature, monotheism) and wonders
- If you fail to get hinduism, you can still get judaism easily.

This is all somewhat obvious for some of us, but not for all of us.
Let me point out that if we human want an early religion while starting with mysticism, we'll work some commerce tiles and try to grow and work more commerce tiles. The AI doesn't. It will work hammer tiles first.
So we still get the targeted religion (this is true up to emperor, I believe. On immortal, if an AI goes for a religion, you lose).

All this lengthy explanation to say that there are things to learn from this first round, and to learn anything, you need to read the spoilers and open the saves. If discussions arise, all the better.
But it's not the main vector of learning here.

I think, I'll start in a few hours. First I'll defend my own moves, then I'll post some compliments and criticism on the other players moves. People can react to that if they want, maybe I'm missing their strategy. I will only vote Friday evening/night Dutch/French time.

You don't really need to defend your own moves. When you see where we all stand, you'll understand you're not in danger .
+ your text file is very detailed

But I'll be glad to hear your opinion on my game (and on others).
Sometimes a straight comparison between 2 games is the best illustration but sometimes the difference is very slight now and will lead to something major thing later on.

Another discussion I'd like to see is when the voting is done, what needs to be fixed in the next round?