Fix the 5th trash game

Here are my general comments on the saves:

Some of you have unescorted workers and settlers!!!! I'm surprised at how many of you are willing to take that risk... The scouting in some saves is a little troubling since they haven't found a good spot for a second city yet. It's also interesting how some of you moved from the starting location. I didn't move because the game automatically clears your bfc of jungle. I was worried that the south was all jungle, so I wanted to maximize the tiles that I could get near the jungle border. And I'm also a sucker for river tiles...

As for specific comments asides from the above...

cabert - you have some unmined hills in your cross - I think they're more valuable than a farmed FP.

Ojevind - I don't really agree with the spot for your second city... it has huge maintenance costs and doesn't have any hammer producing tiles until you get a border pop. I'm guessing you built the city here for coastal bonus + fresh water bonus?

me - my second city site is :smoke: I was worried about the unhealthy from the jungles but I think a city one tile south can handle the unhealthy up to size 4 (not sure).

fbelintani - I don't think you need to research fishing so early unless you're going to build a coastal city - there are more pressing techs like pottery/writing/iron working at this point.

Feel free to disagree with any of my points :D Oh and Roland, nice teching! I'm envious of your RNG luck :cry: The RNG gods ate all my scouts and gave me junk.

Cabert - I think I'm the only one who took meditation. I generally research meditation before polytheism unless I come across early marble. I don't like building the GL without marble, and meditation sets up a COL (from oracle)-philosophy GS bulb. Then you hop into pacifism, crank out GS, and go tech crazy up to liberalism. I don't build the polytheism wonders anyways so I always just trade for poly after the wonders are completed (and monotheism too). Plus, Gandhi is spiritual = caste system rules. I'm looking forward to abusing scientists with lots of food specials!
 
fbelintani - I don't think you need to research fishing so early unless you're going to build a coastal city - there are more pressing techs like pottery/writing/iron working at this point.

As for my defense, that was EXACTLY the main reason I chose to research Fishing: my second city was intended to be coastal. :cool:
The other one was the discount it would give me on Pottery eventually. :mischief:
 
Some of you have unescorted workers and settlers!!!! I'm surprised at how many of you are willing to take that risk...

how about an undefended capital! bonus trash points for not realizing the risk comes so early :trophy: and even while thinking "our UU is great for mining hills" not remembering that we can pre-chop forests without losing a turn having to climb back up there to finish it off later :crazyeye:

signed, anonymous, who feels that she deserves no defense, more like campaigning :lol:
 
Thoughts on games:

Mine: I went for early religion because I could. I subscribe to the polytheism myth. Didn't explore vigorously but found enough territory to identify at least two decent city sites. Going for religion first meant I lost a few beakers by delaying hunting/ivory. I'm sure I could have micromanaged better to get settler out earlier, maybe I should have chopped.

Shyuye: solid research and tile development helped game off to solid start. Getting buddhism late was kind of lucky (risky?).

Ojevid Lang: Bit surprised by tech order. I would have thought wheel could wait until after hunting/AH/agric because generally early game is about maximising output from a small number of tiles rather than hooking up resources for health and happy. Bombay's location is interesting ,nice example of aggressive settling but doesn't seem to be many resources in BFC.

Fbilentani: Didn't go for early religion, fair enough. Not sure about fishing; there ain't many seafood resources nearby.

Cam_H: Moving north to get rice, should have helped growth/development but for some reason a bit behind other games in BW and first settler.

cabert: Same comment as for Cam_H.

Roland: Solid start, two techs from huts is a definite bonus. Not sure I agree with your dotmap but we could argue that later.

KM: Solid start. As you said not quite enough exploration near settler to identify best site.

Mice: As you said a bit meandering. Not sure about tech order in view of available tiles.
 
thoughts on games :
- Pigswill, I know the fast worker can outrun any enemy. But panthers move 2 jungle tiles = big risk.
- Roland, I certainly don't agree with your dotmap, but that for another story. You're in the same slow boat than I am = no settler out.
- Cam, You game looks a bit like mine, only worse :p
- Kmad, nice game but your settler is in a bit of danger (fogbusting isn't good enough). Having no unit in a size 2 capital at this time isn't a problem. It will be in 10/20 turns. No agriculture is a bad move IMHO (could be wrong).
- mice, no agri. 4 warriors for large fogbusting is good. A well placed, well cultured city fogbusts more. The well cultured part can be achieved through religion ;).
- FB, same as mice : no religion, no agri. Fishing? where is this settler going to use fishing? Not a lot of seafood out there.
- Ojevind, what is a woodsman 2 doing in the ice? Didn't like jungle maybe? Bombay is oddly placed : no new resource, far from capital, not on a river... I'm sure other city sites could have been better (and nearer!)
- Shyhue, bombay would have been better one tile S, fogbusting to the next city isn't optimal (you need no city garrison at this point, being only size 2, so the warrior could be fogbusting the way to your next city). Other than that, good playing.
 
thoughts on games :
-- Ojevind, what is a woodsman 2 doing in the ice? Didn't like jungle maybe? Bombay is oddly placed : no new resource, far from capital, not on a river... I'm sure other city sites could have been better (and nearer!)

LOL - the warrior opened a goody hut on the tundra - very near the ice - and got two promotions. I chose the woodsman 2 promotion because it will be useful once the warrior has returned south. I built the second city by the sea to be certain we get sea access, and to box Bismarck in. I researched the Wheel to be able to connect everything. Third settler soon coming up and going to the west - I would have done that even if I didn't know from looking at other people's games that the only bronze resource is there. Fourth city by that gold. Fifth city betwen the first and the second city.
I didn't know about the bronze to the west, so settling in the jungle there did not seem like a priority to me.
 
Today I really looked at the games. Everybody did a real :goodjob: here. No big :smoke: this time. Hard to vote... But I have some things to say:

  • My game: at last I remembered why fishing. You either get pottery through Agriculture or Fishing. As I didn't want to settle in the jungle, I chose the latter (English guys: is that the right way to write?) to found a coastal copper/cow city AND for it's being cheaper than Agriculture. Then I'd not research worker techs for a while, as I had a ambitious plan. I may talk about it later.
  • Cam and cabert: these two games were almost identical. It shows how much you guys have played together. :lol: I can only say that it's a path I'd not choose, but it's because my game play style tends to stay away from early religions. :blush:
  • Kmad: your exploration was one of the best in terms of revealing tiles. But you really could have explored a little more near Delhi. Other than that, just look at the above statement.
  • Mice: your save was the closest to mine, as I could see. We were the only ones not chasing religions. you chose Agri on the way to pottery, when I chose Fishing. I thought about doing the same for a good while.
  • Ojevind: This was a different game. Haven't you built a worker or I missed it somewhere? :crazyeye:
  • pigswill: A very well defined religion chasing game. Same comments for cam and cabert's apply here. I just think you could have explored a little bit more. Maybe you mentioned something I can't recall now. :blush:
  • Roland:You have the best score, helped by the luck with the goody huts. Well, it shows your good and fast exploration! The most important thing in your game was Delhi at size 4 and a Settler almost out. It gave you some :commerce:, at least.
  • shyuhe: Your game was different too. A good mix between religion and worker techs. I didn't like one thing: Bombay is one tile off the coast. I can remember how much people complained about the AI doing this on Vanilla. :mischief:
Again, I'm not criticizing anyone here, as I'm no pro. Most of you know I just claimed a Prince victory. It's just a latin-american-guy's opinion. :mischief:

One curiosity. Have you guys noticed we have 9 saves. 5 have 117 in-game score; 1 has 110, 1 has 124, 1 has 130 and 1 has 137. THe last 3 were helped by huts, IIRC. What a coincidence, uh? ;)

Oh! One more thing: Roland, how did you do that in-game dotmapping???? :)
 
everybody seems to hate the location of my Bombay :lol:

@cabert - I didn't send a fog buster out to my second city because I was just going to send out the warrior in my capital ahead of him. Then build a new warrior while growing the capital again.
 
This is a bit lengthy post. Just read the part that interests you (probably the part about your own game). I hope I haven't insulted someone. It's just my way to look at it, nothing more.

Oh! One more thing: Roland, how did you do that in-game dotmapping???? :)

You can zoom out until you see the clouds appearing and then the buttons above the minimap change. The most left one is called the strategy layer and it allows you to put signs on the map and to draw on the map. Signs can also be placed on the map whenever you press ALT-s


About going for a religion. Many seem to think that they would have a good chance to win a religion race with an AI when they went for the same religion technology. That is not true with this game start and these starting tiles. The ones who won a race to a starting religion (that includes me) were just lucky. We gambled and won. Of course, it is a positive thing to have a holy city, but we were just lucky.

For instance:
Meditation costs 119 for us. We can research at a rate of 10 during the starting turns because we can use a tile that gives us 1 extra commerce. Because you get one free research point and a bonus of 20% due to the knowledge of one prerequisite technology (mysticism), you get to 11*1.2=13 research points per turn. Therefore, it will take 10 turns to research meditation (9*13=117). Growing to size 2 won't help you to get it quicker, it takes too long.

Meditation costs 104 for the AI. The AI has a minimal research output of 9 (not using a commerce tile, just palace and center tile). So an AI who starts with mysticism gets 1.2 * (9+1)=12 research point per turn. Therefore, it will take the AI 9 turns to research meditation.

We were just lucky that Brennus didn't choose to research Polyetheism at the start. If we had started with a 2 commerce tile (say an oasis), then we would have stood a very good chance to win a religion race with the AI going for the same religion.


Okay, now about game analysis.

My own game: After settling on the spot (trusting the placement algorithm that the hidden tiles would be good), I saw 6 good tiles, grassland ivory, grassland cow, 2 grassland hills, floodplain and a river banana. These tiles are good tiles (in my opinion) because after some basic tile improvements, using any of them will invest 2 hammers per turn in a worker or a settler. It is clear that the grassland cow and the grassland ivory are good. But the irrigated banana tile that I'm using is also nice. It produces 4 food, 1 commerce. After feeding the population that leaves 2 food, 1 commerce to invest in my empire. The food can be used to grow the city, pop-rushing or building settlers or workers. The 1 commerce is a nice extra. While using pop-rushing or building workers or settlers, the tile is superior to a mined grassland hill. Of course, I will build a plantation on that spot when it becomes available.
Because so many good tiles were available to the capital, I chose to grow my city a bit bigger before building a settler. That's why my city is size 4 and I don't have a settler out yet. I could have pop rushed, but that would reduce the production power of my capital which would not have helped in the long run. Pop-rushing is good when you get near the happiness cap or when there are no good tiles to use. Both are not the case in my capital.
While I don't have a settler out yet, I can build workers and settlers very fast and I have a barracks to produce experienced units. The barracks is not that important, but it is nice when the barbarians start to appear (which will be soon). I just built it because there was not a lot of better things to do while the capital was growing.
My city will also produce some commerce when I plant a cottage on the floodplain and grow to size 5. So I will be able to pay the maintenance for the continued expansion. So I went for a more long term expansion plan compared to a fast 2-nd city.

I was lucky when exploring. The fact that my explorer survived an early encounter with a bear (3 turns after he was created) allowed it to continue on to pop 2 or 3 goody huts. But I do value early expansion because it allows you to place your cities better and take into account the placement of future cities when placing your second city. So if I would have lost some units, then I would have created some new warriors to explore and the barracks would not have been completed before I started the settler. And I would of course have a little less knowledge about the world because my newly build warriors would need to walk to the edge of the fog of war again. I was also lucky that 2 out of 4 (I believe) huts gave me a technology.
The large area of exploration was partly due to the fact that the explorer won a number of battles and got a woodsman II promotion. It can now quickly explore the jungle in the south.

I improved the rice for a future city and to be able to connect it with roads for health benefits when my worker didn't have anything better to do.

In so far my approach.


Shyuhe: Looks good. About to connect copper. But I don't like the placement of that city. I do understand why you placed it there. It will be a good city, but it seems a bit of a waste of some good coastal tiles and I just don't want to waste good tiles (purely a personal preference). Also coastal cities give far better trade routes.
You are going for another city. I think you pop rushed with the idea that you would grow back while building a barracks (or something). However, the gold site made you rethink that. I agree with that, but the small city is not a fast settler and worker builder and you also need some units to defend your 3 city empire. I guess that you will (need to) stop expanding for a while after that third city to get some workers and units and get your cities a bit larger and more productive.
Were you talking about the gold site when you were being secretive about an important resource?

Ojevind: I very often go worker first or at least very early. A cow tile gives you 1 food after feeding the population. An improved cow tile gives you 2 food and 2 hammers after feeding the population. The value of tile improvements is huge, often easily doubling the nett output of the tile and will greatly improve your capital and thus the growth rate of your empire.
The area to the north of the capital is actually very promising and I would have explored it early. You have explored a significant part of the world. I would have explored a bit more to find settling positions. For instance, I would have chosen to explore the area around the gold. It seems like you discovered the area early.
I would have chosen a more productive second city site. I think it is quite impossible to block Bismarcks expansion because there is not a really good choking point. Blocking can be an interesting option sometimes, but I don't think it will work here. And Brennus can still expand freely. I think going for your own strength instead of limiting the strength of others is better in the very early game. But I'm more of a builder than a warmonger, I guess. ;)

fbelintani: Your settler looks vulnerable. I don't think one escort of a settler is the best way to get it to a settling spot safe. If you have one or two units that are a few steps ahead of the settler, then they can make sure that there are no animals in the region that could attack the settler and the settler can move at full speed, not limited by the speed of the warrior. This works best when there are some hills so that you don't need many fogbusting units. One warrior is very vulnerable to animals.
I think that agriculture is more useful than fishing. There is some rice in the neighbourhood.
Exploration and capital improvement looks good to me.

pigswill: I like the naming of your capital, but I have better hopes of our empire. ;)
Your worker and setler are in serious danger. There were panthers in the jungle and they could come out of the fog of war.
Your exploration is good enough to find a good settling spot, but if you had explored a bit further then you might have found the gold settling spot (which I think is great). It is a bit of luck to find it of course.
The capital is a bit small, don't actually know why. Did you pop rush? If that is the case, it doesn't help you with the building of the second settler or anything else after that.
You're going for two religions. That's a bit of a gamble. It also takes a while before it pays of. You need two great prophets and twice as many missionaries and only one of your holy cities can contain Wall Street. I wouldn't do it and prefer to go for pottery for the cottages first. It can of course be defended, it's a bit of a gamble and I don't like to gamble. ;)

KMad: I would send the settler toward the gold spot. It is great for our commerce and that can sustain our expansion. The copper spot is of course important too.
Your capital is a bit small, but I guess you pop rushed in anticipation of building the barracks.
Extensive exploration and good terrain improvements.

Cam_H: I would have explored more to the north instead of the south. The jungle area isn't that great for settling. You do have a good settling spot around the gold but it is a bit hard to predict where your other cities will be in the future in relation to that city and your capital, making it hard to get a good layout of your future empire. I always like to plan ahead as you can see when you download my savegame. But I'm a bit extreme in that regard. ;)
After the settler, I would build a warrior to explore the north western region which looks good for settling.
Good terrain improvements.

Cabert: Same comment as to Cam_H about exploring, more to the north, less to the south. I think you should have build the worker earlier or you should have chosen to improve the cows sooner. They are your best tile. See Ojevind, why I think workers early are important.
You haven't found the gold spot yet. It's around the river area which is a good area to explore because the floodplains are good spots to settle. The gold is of course a superb spot to settler when discovered.

Mice: I would have finished exploring the gold spot, it's a good settling spot. It looks as if a unit might have died around that area while exploring so that's just bad luck.
Your settler could easily be eaten by a panther who appears out of the fog of war, the warrior is no full proof defence. If you move fog busters in front of your settler, then they can walk safely towards the settling spot knowing there are no animals in the neighbourhood. It also means that your settler isn't limited by the movement rate of the warrior.
Good exploration and tile improvements.
You also found both the copper and the horses. We were both lucky to find those horses (and silver). But they are probably too far away to use soon. And we might be forced to forget about their existence.

It's fun to see so many approaches to the same game start. Let's see which one we will continue.
 
Your settler could easily be eaten by a panther who appears out of the fog of war, the warrior is no full proof defence. If you move fog busters in front of your settler, then they can walk safely towards the settling spot knowing there are no animals in the neighbourhood. It also means that your settler isn't limited by the movement rate of the warrior.

Thanks for this feedback. I usually send the warrior ahead as you suggested. In this case I have no excuse except that I forgot to do it!

And one more excuse. New keyboard. It's surprising how much it broke my concentration.
 
my thoughts:

my game - what weird exploration! partly that had to be done on purpose ... as i spoilered in post 31, i'd played once up to getting BW and then crashed, couldn't find the autosave so i had to re-play. and that first time, when i got BW i could see the copper tile but i remember the sick feeling in my stomach from "OMG why didn't i look around MORE there?" so i had to make myself do that again *giggle*. i might have overcompensated during the re-play (which is the one that got uploaded of course), but the idea was that in fact my game was really trashy in that respect so i re-did it the same way.
- part of why i had good exploration of where the other guys are, and resource tiles, is that i am the suckiest fogbuster! i didn't realize real barbs would be out this soon, literally that archer next to my scout is the first non-animal i'd seen. so i was doing the 'look around' thing and not the 'fog-bust in my own lands' thing, so the good resource spotting is the result of :smoke:, see?
- not having agri yet. i didn't chase the rice and i wanted a pasture on the cows, and i wanted a camp on the ivory. i love 4F2H cows! also seeing cyrus i wanted to find the ponies. so, i went hunting->AH without spending turns on agri, on purpose. even knowing it would give me a discount on AH i wanted those cows faster in the short-term. i'm going wheel now rather than backtrack agri just yet since i figure i'll want to connect my cities.
roland - i didn't pop-rush, i just didn't grow my city past 2 between the worker and the settler, would have taken too long (IMO) given the worker techs i had at the time. i think that applies to pigswil's game too, i don't see any whip :mad: in his city. the size difference is just that we made our settlers already waited on growth til after that, you went the opposite direction.

the other games:

pigswill - you don't have a sign for your 2nd city, very sneaky, i can't see if i agree with it or not ;) then again, that's not an issue since it's not settled so we can put it where we want! if the mono gamble pays off i love it - to me separate holy cities is great if one's the capital, because then we're not tied into having wall street in the capital. i guess i'm the opposite of roland there. but, it is a gamble and we don't know if it'll pay off.

shyuhe - i like that bombay is the holy city - see above for WS theory, and you got your BFC already, awesome luck! location would be stronger 1S longer term, but from the log it looks like you'd not have had time to move to the jungle and settle and still get it as holy city. so you'd have had to gamble and change techs a turn to be sure you got it there, or not gamble and then you lose the bonus points i give you for it being the holy city not delhi *giggle*. given that (altho obviously i'm going by what i would have been thinking re:holy city, not sure what you were), and given that you knew we had copper and you're going for gold soon, you might not be going IW real soon so then 1S wouldn't be a better city until quite a bit later. so i don't think it's 100% :smoke:

Ojevind - i'm not a real big fan of your bombay. but having the river connection and sea access are both good. part of what i don't like is not having a worker at all yet, but that's a style thing. i don't understand why you detoured to the wheel already. no worker yet, and when you do build him wouldn't it have better to have hunting earlier, to get AH earlier for the cows? also, i'd have saved the promotions on the warrior for the future. even knowing that i'd use them on woodsman, i'm usually a fan of keeping exp in reserve for if troops needs healing, and woodsman isn't helping him where he is now. hubby says my troops look like blue glowie jedis from star wars movies :crazyeye:

cabert - look at those cultural borders. that's not just a free city brennus built us. that's gotta be the holy city, we know it's not the capital since you'd scouted the tile before he put a city on it, but it's had a culture pop already. and it's not even on a hill! it's ours baybee :) yeah it was his doing, but great luck *giggle* i don't like the capital move. i knew i'd lose 5 river tiles and gain at least one desert and 2 jungle, to me that wasn't worth a rice. but, you never know til you do it.

Cam - same about the capital move. not sure where you're going to send the settler since BW doesn't come in for a bit. but, since you haven't marked a spot i can't nitpick at it, sneaky like pigswil ;)

mice - 2nd city isn't settled yet, but it's marked. i consider the sign :smoke: but it's not a done deal yet so that's ok. it won't be able to work the copper and food until it gets a border pop, which will have to be by monument. and there's only 1 forest in that entire BFC. you can chop it, and mine that hill, and mine the other hill, but that's all you can do before the monument is done so i'd not put it there. (keep in mind this is coming from the person who doesn't know where her own city #2 is going!)

fb - i'm curious about the ambitious plan :) i'd not have chopped that northmost forest in the capital BFC. that was our only chance of forest growth up there. and given a choice, i chop riverside forests first generally, lumbermills are far away so might as well get the commerce the forest is robbing from me while i get the hammers from the chop. here i'll do the one south of the elephants first, since that leaves others with a chance for a spread. (i already got lucky and got a forest growth from that one you chopped, probably why i noticed that it's gone from yours.) i promise i won't be this nitpicky about every worker move in every turnset :lol:

roland - see fb's game about forest you're about to chop. i like irrigating the banana, that's what i generally do too, partly as the jungle spread prevention. but i didn't get an agri hut and did get a jungle spread on 'em before i could have ever researched agri myself :sad:

looking at my own game again - what i said about mice's city sign is even WORSE for my own gah?!?!?! it was there meaning "eww yuck what do i do in this area" but now that i typed out my thinking on mice's placement, that square i marked is about the worst one i could place it on. i have a chance of a religion spread once i road to my capital i suppose, but the only decent tile i'd have before a culture pop is thanks to delhi's border pop. i could work the ivory, but since it still has jungle on it, would be just 1F2H1C until IW, and i have nothing in the borders to chop to get the monument! can chop outside borders but it loses so many hammers, ouch. i think by what little exploration i did do over there, my best option is 1N of the sign so that i get the copper right away. i think i had the sign down there for the extra 3 hills and the rice. moving it 1N puts it 1S of shyuhe's bombay, and thus we go full circle i guess *giggle*.

anyway, those are my ramblings for now.
 
fbelintani: Your settler looks vulnerable. I don't think one escort of a settler is the best way to get it to a settling spot safe. If you have one or two units that are a few steps ahead of the settler, then they can make sure that there are no animals in the region that could attack the settler and the settler can move at full speed, not limited by the speed of the warrior. This works best when there are some hills so that you don't need many fogbusting units. One warrior is very vulnerable to animals.
I think that agriculture is more useful than fishing. There is some rice in the neighbourhood.
Exploration and capital improvement looks good to me.

I actually did what you said. There was a coincidence that on the last move both settler and warrior went to the same spot.
And I won't talk about fishing X agri again. I already noticed you guys didn't like it... Just wait for my evil plan... :mwaha:

fb - i'm curious about the ambitious plan :) i'd not have chopped that northmost forest in the capital BFC. that was our only chance of forest growth up there. and given a choice, i chop riverside forests first generally, lumbermills are far away so might as well get the commerce the forest is robbing from me while i get the hammers from the chop. here i'll do the one south of the elephants first, since that leaves others with a chance for a spread. (i already got lucky and got a forest growth from that one you chopped, probably why i noticed that it's gone from yours.) i promise i won't be this nitpicky about every worker move in every turnset :lol:

Thanks for the feedback on the forest. I really didn't realize it... And I can't recall why I chopped that specific forest. Maybe that was because the worker was right there. Maybe it's because I forgot I was playing India and have fast workers... Thanks anyway. :)
Ok, you're curious about the plan? I'll just give you a hint.. I learned how to make people curious from watching the best guy around here doing this. And I know cabert and you know who I'm talking about. ;)
 
fb - i'm curious about the ambitious plan :) i'd not have chopped that northmost forest in the capital BFC. that was our only chance of forest growth up there. and given a choice, i chop riverside forests first generally, lumbermills are far away so might as well get the commerce the forest is robbing from me while i get the hammers from the chop. here i'll do the one south of the elephants first, since that leaves others with a chance for a spread. (i already got lucky and got a forest growth from that one you chopped, probably why i noticed that it's gone from yours.) i promise i won't be this nitpicky about every worker move in every turnset :lol:

roland - see fb's game about forest you're about to chop. i like irrigating the banana, that's what i generally do too, partly as the jungle spread prevention. but i didn't get an agri hut and did get a jungle spread on 'em before i could have ever researched agri myself :sad:

Yes, I was very lucky to get farming from a goody hut. I don't know if I would have researched it if I hadn't gotten it from a goody hut. I had a jungle spread on one of the grassland hills. I wasn't happy with that either. I would have otherwise mined it.

About the forest chop. My worker was just next to that tile, improving the rice tile with a farm, so that was the only forest tile that he could go to without losing worker turns. I would have moved the worker to the forest tile within the fat cross closest to the gold city next and chop that one and then move on to the gold city to start chopping a temple there for border expansion.
Another worker, partly constructed with the chop hammers of the second forest would chop the remaining two forests and connect the cow and rice for health benefits. So I just chose the most optimal order for worker turns. All of the forest tiles within the fat cross would be gone within 15 turns.
 
All of the forest tiles within the fat cross would be gone within 15 turns.
ah! i don't assume all my forests will be gone that early (even if i hadn't already had a new one grow). yeah, that'd make a difference in whether it's worth wasting the movement.
 
oh, for you it's about playing faster? i'm so curious! i mean yeah i wanna play the game too, but mostly i want to end the suspense.
 
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