For or Against “Pro Illegal Immigrant”

[jamiethearcher]

They get paid less, just because they're illegal immigrants? Link?

I cannot provide a link for that because its not recorded anywhere - illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, or record their income in any type of census. Because illegal immigrants cannot get work authorization, they cannot get social security numbers, and are not official employees at any business.

Unscrupulous employers can say, you work for $X/hour, or I;m gonna anonymously let the Department of Homeland Security know about you, and they are going to send your ass back to (Insert country of origin here).

Obviously this is a generalization - there are decent employers out there, and I am sure many illegal immigrants get paid comperable wages to Americans. But just think - if YOU were an employer, and you had that kind of power, how would you act? If you think that employers don't take advantage of the situation, you are in dreamland.

 

[kingjoshi]

I cannot provide a link for that because its not recorded anywhere - illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, or record their income in any type of census. Because illegal immigrants cannot get work authorization, they cannot get social security numbers, and are not official employees at any business.

Unscrupulous employers can say, you work for $X/hour, or I;m gonna anonymously let the Department of Homeland Security know about you, and they are going to send your ass back to (Insert country of origin here).

Obviously this is a generalization - there are decent employers out there, and I am sure many illegal immigrants get paid comperable wages to Americans. But just think - if YOU were an employer, and you had that kind of power, how would you act? If you think that employers don't take advantage of the situation, you are in dreamland.

Many illegal immigrants pay taxes. Some use social security numbers of legals that have left or use fake numbers that don't collide with anyone else. Obviously there are those that don't use SSN and don't pay any sorts of taxes, but I don't know what percentage that is. While many illegals are Hispanics that crossed the border, millions are people that have overstayed their visa. They got jobs and so forth, but their visa ran out and they continue to use their OWN SSN and pay taxes.

Of course many employers take advantage of their employees. But theatening them with DHS wouldn't be very effective, especially if the employer already employed them for a limited time. It is illegal to hire someone that's not allowed to work and the employer would get themselves in trouble. I doubt prosecutors care enough to break that employer a deal because some harmless immigrant was being abused.

For people to leave their families and culture behind to work illegally in another place, it has to be financially worth it. Working below minimum wage would make it difficult to save money, much less send money home. Rent, food, etc isn't cheap when you're making below minimum wages.

Some statistics on illegal immigrants can be inferred from many other measures. Looking at child births, backgrounds of students at schools, housing statistics, etc.

 

[MobBoss]

I want stronger immigration laws. There is nothing wrong with ensuring that those immigrating to the United States are legal. All the people protesting this just emphasizes why we need to do it now and not wait...the longer we wait only the more opposition it will face.

I want a fence put up and manned 24/7. I want it to be a felony to employ illegals. And I want it to be a felony to be an illegal.

People should still be allowed to immigrate here...but just do it legally.

 

[kingjoshi]

Without a way for the illegals to become legal and without a way for the employers to get migrant workers (the House bill lets the old migrant worker policy lapse without renewing it), your plan won't work.

If those are included with the fence and stronger illegal-immigration laws THEN there is a possibility of this working. But having one without the other is a doomed policy. And i have no idea why so many support a policy that is clearly not going to work.

 

[jamiethearcher]

For people to leave their families and culture behind to work illegally in another place, it has to be financially worth it. Working below minimum wage would make it difficult to save money, much less send money home. Rent, food, etc isn't cheap when you're making below minimum wages.

But you have to remember that many people come here with the intention of only staying temporarily, earning some money, and sending it back home. Many illegal immigrants are willing to live in squalor while they are here, earning precious american dollars to send back home. I know this for a FACT because my greatgrandfather did it, As did my grandfather - he just liked it enough that he wanted to stay.

When you consider that the exchange rate between pesos and dollars is something like 10-1, you can earn quite a bit of money to send home, even if you are earning less than minimum wage.

EDIT: and as for your point that threating them with the DHS isnt effective because they are just as guilty is bang on - I know that, and you know that, but do you really think that an illegal immigrant with a rudimentary knowledge of english who has just come over here as a seasonal agricultrual worker knows that?

 

[Leonel]

Well to me, if illegal immigrants pay their taxes, then I'm okay with them around.

As a matter of fact, illegal immigrants should be paid the same wages as US citizens as to give companies no incentive to hire illegals over US citizens.

 

[kingjoshi]

EDIT: and as for your point that threating them with the DHS isnt effective because they are just as guilty is bang on - I know that, and you know that, but do you really think that an illegal immigrant with a rudimentary knowledge of english who has just come over here as a seasonal agricultrual worker knows that?

Yes. Because they don't come here or live here in a vacuum. Other illegals and even some legals will give them information to help them. And part of the reason there's so many coming is because there are jobs here. So the illegals can look for another job.

Also, besides paying takes, some illegals are too scared to file tax returns. The IRS just loves those cases.

 

[Ethics]

You have to remember that many people come here with the intention of only staying temporarily, earning some money, and sending it back home. Many illegal immigrants are willing to live in squalor while they are here, earning precious american dollars to send back home. I know this for a FACT because my greatgrandfather did it, As did my grandfather - he just liked it enough that he wanted to stay.

When you consider that the exchange rate between pesos and dollars is something like 10-1, you can earn quite a bit of money to send home, even if you are earning less than minimum wage.

This isnt whats happening at all. Its absurd to believe that anyone is going to sneak across the desert, setup roots here, and then leave later back to be an unlanded peasant for Vicente Fox and the rest of the Mexican aristocracy.

Why would anyone leave the US when theyre supported by the welfare, education, and political system? Noones giving free-lunch down in Mexico or pandering to them in an education system (its absurd that we spend more money on the children of illegal immigrants than those of natural born citizens in our education system).

Noone left under Reagan's "immigration reform" and theyre not leaving after so many years of some guest worker program that will give them even easier access to becoming a full citizenship after breaking our laws in the first place.

 

[kingjoshi]

Why would anyone leave the US when theyre supported by the welfare, education, and political system?

I guess you don't value your family. Most of the illegals don't come with their family. That's quite an incentive for many to return. Oh and the cultural difference. And constantly being looked upon as second class citizen/resident. Lack of voting (without citizenship). etc.

Many illegals go back and forth through the border. They come for so many months and earn money and return home. The tougher it is to cross the border, the more likely they'll stay. The easier it is, the more likely they'll see their families. They wouldn't be able to afford to have their whole families here.

Reagon's immigration reform wasn't comprehensive. The reform in 1995 wasn't comprehensive. And the pathetic bill passed in the House wasn't comprehensive. You can't look at this issue from some theoretical and idealistic view without any relation to reality. And that goes for all the sides on this issue.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

 

[Kingshaggy]

What would happen if a few of these people (illegal immigrant) refuse to Learn English as a part of the new immigration law going thru the senate to become a citizen?

 

[JollyRoger]

What would happen if a few of these people refuse to Learn English as a part of the new immigration law going thru the senate to become a citizen?

Half the Senate struggles speaking understandable English.

 

[Ethics]

I guess you don't value your family. Most of the illegals don't come with their family. That's quite an incentive for many to return. Oh and the cultural difference. And constantly being looked upon as second class citizen/resident. Lack of voting (without citizenship). etc.

Actually, many have children in the states so that eventually they can bring the entire family through that way in the law (although this has created a weird situation where many of these children are coming of age with no real social security card due to their parents decision but thats another time for another debate).

Many save their wages to buy their family in legally later. This is exactly what happened last century with eastern Europeans (although, Poland wasnt a horrible place to return to comparatively to Mexico) except the difference is that they paid their way legally in the first time.

Nooone is looking at illegal immigrants as a second class "citizen." As I previously stated, they receive just as much federal support (and even more so) then your average US citizen. Who cares about the right to vote (which is hardly used by most citizens to begin with) when you have pundits like Geraldo demonizing anyone who speaks against someone who breaks federal law and is a burden to our governmental system and a congress who buckles the second a bunch of spoiled teens looking to get out of class unfold a Mexican flag and begin scream "MORE RIGHTS FOR MEXICANS."

Second Class "citizens"... right.

Many illegals go back and forth through the border. They come for so many months and earn money and return home. The tougher it is to cross the border, the more likely they'll stay. The easier it is, the more likely they'll see their families. They wouldn't be able to afford to have their whole families here.



Reagon's immigration reform wasn't comprehensive. The reform in 1995 wasn't comprehensive. And the pathetic bill passed in the House wasn't comprehensive. You can't look at this issue from some theoretical and idealistic view without any relation to reality. And that goes for all the sides on this issue.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

I am looking at this from reality. I work in the education system and have lived in Houston most of my life. I know from experience and from work on my bachelors degree and personal visits to Mexico of the status quo that has existed there for centuries.

Were not talking 19th-20th century immigration where many go back. Theres nothing worth going back to and the roads are literally paved with gold with what even an illegal is given in this country. They may go back to see their family, but trust me, theres no majority of them going back there to stay there. Peasants in Mexico don't get what an illegal does to raise a family in Mexico.

Perhaps you should try looking at this from reality? The reality is, Americans are getting sick of paying out the wazoo to be second class citizens to a group of people who don't play by the rules in the first place. Most people don't have a problem with immigration. They have a problem with illegal immigration who are rewarded for not playing by the rules (that my ancestors and others) played by.

 

[kingjoshi]

Actually, many have children in the states so that eventually they can bring the entire family through that way in the law (although this has created a weird situation where many of these children are coming of age with no real social security card due to their parents decision but thats another time for another debate).

A US citizen cannot sponsor a family member until they're at least 18. So you're saying someone has a child for the purpose of using the law 18 years later?!

And why the heck wouldn't a person get a valid SSN? Those can be sold or temporarly used by many people. You got to be out of your mind if you think family's wouldn't get their children valid SSNs.

Many save their wages to buy their family in legally later.

Wait, how does someone buy their family in legally later? Do they bribe the US consular office in Mexico?

except the difference is that they paid their way legally in the first time.

It's always easy to point to the rules when they were in your favor. "My parents bought their freedom from servitude. You're just trying to run away."

Nooone is looking at illegal immigrants as a second class "citizen." As I previously stated, they receive just as much federal support (and even more so) then your average US citizen. Who cares about the right to vote (which is hardly used by most citizens to begin with) when you have pundits like Geraldo demonizing anyone who speaks against someone who breaks federal law and is a burden to our governmental system and a congress who buckles the second a bunch of spoiled teens looking to get out of class unfold a Mexican flag and begin scream "MORE RIGHTS FOR MEXICANS."

So the idiotic few who waived Mexican flags in the demonstrations and chanted crap is a valid reason to stick it to all the others? How about the millions of illegals who aren't Mexican? How about those who have lived here almost all their lives? And it's truly sad that you would diminsh the right to vote like that.

This doesn't even get into the fact that no one knows the true value and costs of illegal immigration. That's 11-12 million people. Working jobs many wouldn't want to do. How do you calculate the effects of their work on the economy? Despite your intentions, many pay taxes. And don't collect on their returns out of fear.

And you say they receive better benefits?

Perhaps you should try looking at this from reality? The reality is, Americans are getting sick of paying out the wazoo to be second class citizens to a group of people who don't play by the rules in the first place.

Right, so even though I was legal in the US for many years and my family always paid taxes, when going to college, I had to pay international fees because I was treated better. So even though I graduated salutatorian of my class, I couldn't get any financial aid to public universities because I was treated better. Even though I've lived in the US since I was 5 and i'm 26 now, I can't work legally because I'm treated better. And even though I have a Master's degree in Computer Science, I have to work at fast food jobs or whereever they'll hire me because I'm treated better. Go cry me a river about how you're actually treated second class.

They have a problem with illegal immigration who are rewarded for not playing by the rules (that my ancestors and others) played by.

My international friends in college could afford to come here because they had parents that owned hotels, were venture capitalists or were ministers of some office in their home country. And even though we're equally talented, they can get jobs in Silicon Valley and I can't. My brother who was born here has all the freedoms I don't. Sorry for being born in the wrong place. Next time, I'll tell my parents to return back to their war torn country instead of over-staying their visa because their children don't deserve an education.

It's always easy to point to the rules when they are in your favor. May you never have to experience your sheer presence being on the wrong side of the law.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Since when is there such a big deal about simply enforcing the rule of law, an indispensable element of civilization? Deport the illegal aliens one by one, send them all back to Mexico. Put land mines on the border if necessary. Maybe drop a few by Washington too around all these insane politicians who are so incredibly out of touch with the realities of modern American life.

 

[Kingshaggy]

lol someone might get hurt or killed someone crossing the border if you put landmines!!! Deport the illegal aliens one by one? how you going to find 11 million people!!! we cant find one person call Osama overthere in a country smaller then us

solution ask Mexico to become a state of America?


Then these company would have to find new workers to do the jobs that these new citizen won't do,we are heading back to Slavery , but you cant call it that bc you paying them a wages

 

[JohnRM]

Because I'm too lazy to type a custom post for this thread.

I am newcomer to this discussion, so I am going to address several issues and statements that were covered by various posters.


First: English should be the official language of the United States, for the same reason we have one currency (or Europe for that matter); Because it makes commerce/business safer and easier. I realize that we do not have an official language at this time, and that is fine, but I (and others should) reserve the right to deny employment to any person who does not speak English. It is the de facto offical language. Learn it.

Second: I do NOT support the Amnesty proposal. If we are going to give blanket amnesty to all illegals, then just repeal the law and tear down the border. As others have said, we will just be giving amnesty periodically, forever.

Third: I do support legal immigration on the same basis that Canada allows it; for skilled workers, unskilled workers (when needed), and for asylum. I do not believe we should take just anyone. Immigrants should learn the Constitution, and other pertinent information (and basic English).

Fourth: The statement about the 'tired, poor, hungry masses' is not apart of the U.S. Constitution. It is an outdated doctrine that is no longer sustainable. The threat of uncontrolled immigration is real and it will hurt this country in the long run. The United States needs to control entry into this country, even if that means placing the military on the border. All illegals caught crossing the border should be imprisoned for one year.

Fifth: The right to live in the United States and to obtain citizenship should NOT be based on place of birth. It should be based on whether or not you pay taxes, if you are capable of doing so. Millions of illegal immigrants do not pay taxes and further hurt our economy by sending the bulk of that income back south.

Sixth: Christopher Columbus was an Italian working for the Spanish crown. What does he have to do with anything, today?

Seventh: I am a proud Nationalist. This is not something to be ashamed of, provided that it is not taken too far. I want what is best for my country. What is definitely not best, is for millions of illegals to continue pouring into this country each year, effectively moving Latin America further north. This is not about language or culture, but about what illegals do to the areas that they inhabit. The United States is the richest most prosperous nation on this Earth for a reason. As more illegals come into this country, they are slowly turning those areas into minature versions of Mexico and other poor areas of Latin America. If it is racist not to want that, then by God Sir, I am a racist.

Eighth: In specific regard to "you have no legal premise upon which to set your demands for knowing English as a prerequisite for moving to America"; Yes we do. This government is supposed to be a government of the people. I, and those of us who agree, are among the majority of "We the People", therefore, we have the statute authority and right to demand that any newcomers learn English.


Nineth: In regard to the mentioning of the "outdatedness" of the Second Amendment; That amendment was not established to protect America against the British Army. The Second Amendment was established to protect the States against the Federal Government; and each other. In the aftermath of the American Civil War, the sovereignty of the State was crushed and the Federal Government assumed supreme authority over the States. Thus, in the aftermath, by 1903, the State militias were consolidated into one National Guard system which, for all intents and purposes, placed the former State militias ultimately under the control of the Federal Government. What we have now are weak State and Local governments, because we have no sticks to wave and only a small carrot to work with. NOW is the time that we DO need militias, and those that we do have are few and far between. The States' Governments are either compromised or too weak-minded to assert authority over their own destinies. At this point, the Second Amendment serves one final purpose, for Americans; To protect the rest of our rights.


Tenth: If you have read this far, you have my respect.

 

[CamBot]

Give 'em amnesty, forget about walls and Minutemen and all the other nonsense, and open up the border. There is plenty of room for everyone.

If the existing laws are being routinely flouted, what makes anyone believe that new "get tough" laws will be anymore successful? On balance, the contributions made by all immigrants, legal and illegal, far outweigh what is taken in return, especially when you wait one for two generations for them to assimilate.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Immigration should be controlled in order to keep out undesirables like drug and human traffickers out. We already have a massive uneducated and underperforming underclass, and we don't need to strengthen it by accepting illegal immigrants. I think we should only allow immigration of educated individuals with prospects of a good future.

 

[GinandTonic]

Fact is if you qualify for state support you wont clean a burger bar at five in the morning for below minimum wage. Whole bunch of jobs out there the people in developed countries will not do. Nor will they pay more for their burger, or eat in a dirty burger bar.

Cant have it all ways on.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Give 'em amnesty, forget about walls and Minutemen and all the other nonsense, and open up the border. There is plenty of room for everyone.

If the existing laws are being routinely flouted, what makes anyone believe that new "get tough" laws will be anymore successful? On balance, the contributions made by all immigrants, legal and illegal, far outweigh what is taken in return, especially when you wait one for two generations for them to assimilate.

Wait one or two generations so the Mexicans can complete their conquest? The American people lose the country built by so many hardworking legal immigrants over the centuries and you consider this a good return?




They are not coming here to "seek a better life" or other such nonsense. They are invading to avenge Pancho Villa. There are no "contributions" at all to be made to American society by this invasion.