For those unhappy with vassal behavior

[MrAnon]

here's some hopeful news: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4385382#post4385382

For those who are unaware, the poster, Alexman, is: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?bioid=80

so I guess it's reasonable to expect it to happen

 

[AriochIV]

Alexman only said that a specifc bug related to crossed simultaneous diplomacy messages was being fixed. He didn't say they were changing anything about vassal behavior.

 

[MrAnon]

Alexman only said that a specifc bug related to crossed simultaneous diplomacy messages was being fixed. He didn't say they were changing anything about vassal behavior.

I believe that the crossed simultaneous diplomacy messages involves vassals. Specifically, Civ A asking you to aid them in a war with Civ B; you agree and DOW Civ B, only to discover that Civ B capitulated to Civ A in the time sequence between Civ A's request and your response. This has the net effect of you DOW on Civ A's vassal, meaning that you're now at war with both Civ A & B.

Pray tell, how is this not involving vassal behavior? "Behavior" here meaning "how the game engine handles vassals", not the actions of a specific vassal.

 

[Stuie]

I think AriochIV's point is that Alexman's post indicates that they are fixing the diplomacy bug, period. There are a lot of "complaints" about vassals on this forum that go well beyond that bug.

Now the validity of those "complaints" is another matter...

 

[AfterShafter]

What's being addressed there is a bug which, frankly, is overdue to be dealt with, and I'm glad they're doing so. Aside from that though...

Most people don't like vassals because their returns can be marginal. You whup somebody's ass and they capitulate... But then they have little in the way of resources to give you, won't trade tech, and are a liability for getting you into wars? horsehockey deal, it seems,a nd I believe this is why many people don't like them.

But that's not my experience. Vassals are a gamble, plain and simple, and if you dont' play your cards right, they will do you nothing but harm. You pick a vassal you had poor relations with before, or is of another religion, they probably won't trade much with you. If you bleed them dry, they will fall behind for tech and be no good in a war - and conversely if you let them go nuts, they won't be your vassals for long. To get a vassal to pay off, you need to keep them contained, happy, and advanced.

The advantages when you do? Well, it's easier to keep vassals happy and trading with you becuase of the vassal relationship - it gives a positive modifier. Other civs are less willing to go to war with someone with a vassal. Vassals add a lot of units to your wartime surplus that you don't have to pay for. Also, they are a seperate tech income from yours if you treat them right, since you can depend on them trading with you.

Vassals only pay off if you put a lot of work into them and plan them carefully. If you haphazardly pick them and then don't act in a manner to keep them happy, they will be a liability. Personally, I like this system - it's not a gimme, but the rewards are great, particularly if you want to go peaceful-builder'ish later in the game.

 

[catchsomezzz]

Well said, AfterShafter. I couldn't have restated it any better.

 

[Xanikk999]

I still am pissed that i cannot declare war on my vassal when he refuses my demands. Totally unrealistic, i should be able to punish him.

 

[AfterShafter]

I still am pissed that i cannot declare war on my vassal when he refuses my demands. Totally unrealistic, i should be able to punish him.

This I actually agree with. I like a lot of things about vassal states, but the fact that once they capitulate you're stuck with them for good is a bit much. I'd like to see a system implemented where it punishes you to get rid of them, but you can get rid of them.

 

[Bushface]

And what can be done with a vassal who won't talk to you ? You can't make demands, nor try offering friendly gifts, though why the latter should even be a consideration in the master-vassal relatioship I don't understand. As the master I should get automatic access to my vassal's resources, a proportion of his revenue, control of his forces, and so on, not sullen and obstinate silence while my costs go up without recompense or recourse.

 

[RedFury]

In general I agree with AfterShafter, and wouldn't mind vassals being left close to the way they are now, but some of the quirks, glitches and disadvantages definetely need to be removed. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

- All the DOW problems (DOW order, defensive pacts, option for peace/war instead of automatic DOW by friends like Hatty who would NEVER normally declare on you, AI consideration of enemies/wars its getting into by accepting vassal agreements, AI consideration of what its getting into by attacking my vassal when my military is 3x his and he would NEVER attack me directly.)

- Happiness from Vassals - to me this would be a big plus to obtaining a vassal - if it actually worked. Quite often you see the bonus itemized when you mouse-over the happiness icons but it doesn't actually count in the happiness total. See my thread in bug reports for a clearer description with example pic.

- Vassals Not talking to me. Yes, I have had a couple of games where an AI has been annoyed at me for cancelling trades and has refused to talk to me for many, many turns. In a couple of cases I have attacked and vassalised these nations, and even after capitulation they won't talk to me at all - so there is no opportunity to improve relations. This can sometimes last 30,40,50+ turns. While we're on the subject, why do many leaders get a lot more pissed at you for cancelling deals than full on betraying/attacking them? I've had leaders not talk to me for (what feels like) half the game for agreeing to cancel deals but never experienced anywhere near such behavior for warring.

- Vassals refusing to trade techs because they were the first one to research it and 'we're not ready to start trading away this just yet'. In general I agree with the AI doing this when it gets a tech exclusively, but when they're my vassal, I've treated them well and we have good relations, my clear plan is to use them as a seperate research path and they should be willing to give it to me.

- Having no real course of action to take when (despite my attempts to improve relations) my Vassal is just being a stubborn ass and won't give me anything useful at all. There really needs to be something here which allows me to cancel the vassal agreement and/or go to war with the vassal, even if it has negative modifiers for me (e.g - give me a diplo hit with other civs for X turns, or one extra unhappiness in all my cities for X turns, or something like that.) There player should have an option here though.

- I still think a small gold tribute per turn would make it juicier and more appealing for the human player - but nothing overwhelming or exploitative like the current repeat-gold-donation which is currently available (and being patched I believe.) For example, something like 5-10% of the vassal's gold income (calculated from 100% gold, 0% science, 0% culture) per turn.

Please add anything else legit you can think of, or comments on the above.

Cheers,
RedFury

 

[MSTK]

I agree that there should be a way to provide negative reprocussions to a rebillious vassal. But it seems like too big of a gameplay change to implement in a patch. We may have to wait until the next expansion?