For Those Who Want to Impose Limits on the Use of Federal Benefits
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warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
It's almost as if the poor should band together and vote in blocks. But, correct me if I'm wrong, they mainly continue to vote along ideological lines.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
At least, in Bulgaria, they get paid to vote along ideological lines!
Perfection
The Great Head.
Just because some idiot state congressman proposed a stupid restriction on use of SNAP funds doesn't mean any restrictions on the usage of federal assistance funds is stupid. I mean we don't think it's stupid to exclude alcoholic beverages, do we?
Funny you should mention alcohol. While I do see and understand the reason why they don't allow alcohol to be purchased with SNAP, I wouldn't really care if it were allowed either.
Perfection
The Great Head.
I want my tax dollars going towards helpful things not enabling alcoholism.
It's paternalism. Some people need paternalism. As long as a large enough diversity of things are offered, then it's not so bad. Ostensibly, as a tax payer, you want your tax dollars being spent in a way that make the net-whole 'better'. In the olden days, you'd hire some bureaucrat to manage the provision of welfare services, but this is wildly inefficient. It's best to let people make their own choices.
But you still want to restrict specific abuses. It's condescending to say "you may not buy potato chips using benefits" and that harm needs to be weighed against what else they'll do with that money. Should they buy tuna, and then sell the tuna at 70% retail in order to buy potato chips?
There's also the analgesic benefit of 'buying treats' to consider (which people of means cannot really understand).
But you still want to restrict specific abuses. It's condescending to say "you may not buy potato chips using benefits" and that harm needs to be weighed against what else they'll do with that money. Should they buy tuna, and then sell the tuna at 70% retail in order to buy potato chips?
There's also the analgesic benefit of 'buying treats' to consider (which people of means cannot really understand).
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Does every alcohol purchase enable alcoholism though?
No it doesn't and alcohol has practical applications beyond consumption as well. Such as being a disinfectant. I doubt anyone would buy it for that purpose, but one could theoretically spend some SNAP dollars on alcohol as a cheap disinfectant rather than spending their own hard-earned money on actual disinfectant that wouldn't be covered under SNAP.
Stupid effing public internet terminal. This will be shorter than the awesome post I originally typed.
The fact that the American welfare system uses food stamps in the first place is in itself a major issue. In Australia we have a fairly unbalanced system, but life is made far easier by the ability to spend actual money, rather than only spend on certain items. I was once homeless. As I was not paying rent to my park bench's landlord, I was able to save money and buy a cheap car. I used this car to travel to job interviews and open houses I would not otherwise have been able to make it to, not to mention using the car as shelter. I was then able to get a new job and house that I would not otherwise have had access to. If I was forced to spend my money on certain products, or use food stamps, I would not have been able to do this, and I would likely still be homeless and unemployed.
You and Rick Bratten are also both falling into the trap of not understanding that a family spending welfare payments on steak or beer might be treating themselves. Treats are important. My step-father hates his job; he does manual labour all day and suffers bone joint problems. He has a single can of beer every day after work. It relaxes him, in the same way a cup of coffee relaxes my grandmother every morning. If he did not have this can of beer to look forward to, he would find it harder to focus on his work. I recently attended a sporting event, blowing $50 on the ticket, food, and beverages. Technically I was wasting my money, as I could have spent it on bread and soup to get considerable more "bang for my buck." But that afternoon out, despite my team's defeat, was the most fun I've had since Christmas. I looked forward to it for over a month. It made my life more bearable during that month. I'm sure everyone here has a similar story. Treats matter.
The simple fact is that no one, not you, not the government, has the slightest right to tell people what they can and can't spend their money on, provided it is legal. Limiting spending also simply encourages a black market; without even looking it up, I guarantee there are gangs in the U.S. who buy food stamps of people in exchange for cash, thus building up a collection of food stamps worth more than their cash investment. If the government truly wishes for poor people to spend their welfare payments more wisely, then it should provide them with jobs, skills, and educational opportunities so that they don't live their whole lives in poverty. But there are no campaign contributions in doing that.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
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That's a bit of a false dichotomy. Not everybody who drinks beer every once in a while is an alcoholic. I understand that banning the purchase of alcohol through benefits seems more reasonable than banning everything that's unhealthy or can be seen as a luxury item, but in my opinion it goes too far.
That pretty much mirrors my opinion. There's a big portion in every society that thinks anybody who requires assistance should only get the bare essentials for continued miserable existence.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
So buy potatoes and make your own potato chips. Everyone wins.
I've been on food stamps and had to live in government subsidized housing, so you don't have to explain to me about poor people treating themselves. But in that case, steak was far more expensive than other foods that I could buy a lot of. I learned how to treat myself by cooking what I had really well and in imaginative ways. Treats do matter, but you don't have to spend money in order to have good treats. The poorest member of my entire family was, ironically, also the happiest person I ever knew in my life. She taught me its not your level of income or status that gives you joy in life, but what attitude you choose in life. That's why i'll be rich no matter how much money I have (or don't have).
I agree with you that the government has no right to limit what you can and cant spend with the money that you have earned. But welfare isn't earned money. Its not really 'your' money. It's someone else's tax dollars given to you. And as long as that is the case, then someone else can put limits on it.
That's actually not a bad idea. My wife made homemade potato chips once and they were pretty awesome.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Its actually a great idea. Before my wife and I got our food stamps in (this was many years ago when we were first married and starving students transferring between schools while also looking for work), all we had was milk and potatoes. And brother, I was the Bubba Gump of potatoes.
Perfection
The Great Head.
To clarify I was speaking specifically about SNAP benefits. I wouldn't say government benefits in general should disallow alcohol purchases. I'm fine with a person buying beer with disability money.
As a dude who often enjoys a beer after work I of course recognize the calming effects. But I find it counter to the intended use of SNAP, which is to supply nutrition.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Indeed, mental health is very important. Unfortunately, it's often an afterthought, or not even on anyone's radar..
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Its actually a great idea. Before my wife and I got our food stamps in (this was many years ago when we were first married and starving students transferring between schools while also looking for work), all we had was milk and potatoes. And brother, I was the Bubba Gump of potatoes.
Here you can get 1kg of chips for $2. That is cheaper than buying them yourself. All you need to do is cook them in the oven.
sophie
Break My Heart
I'd rather my tax dollars go towards making or keeping someone happy than forcing them to live in abject misery for the rest of their lives.
Perfection
The Great Head.
That's not as straightforward as you might think. Consider everything you need to make said chips:
Access to quality potatoes, oils, seasonings
(full service grocers with reasonable prices are often difficult to get to for people without reliable transportation or for those who live in certain areas or for those with disabilities - this is even more problematic for more perishable items)
A safe place to store potatoes prior to cooking
(Unstable housing situations and rodent/insect infestation can prevent this, luckily potatoes don't require refrigeration)
A clean and functional kitchen to cook potatoes complete with utensils and working utilities.
(none of these are gaurenteed)
The knowledge of how to make chips: including where to get ingredients, how to get there, how to select them In addition to how to cook them.
(lack of internet access, illiteracy, computer illiteracy, learning disabilities can impede this)
The physical ability to cook them
(fine motor skills/hand eye coordination to work the dials, ability to bend over and put the potatoes in the oven)
The time and planning.
(poverty often leads to dealing with one crisis after another planning meals in advance when one doesn't know one's schedule and with multitudes of other pressing needs isnt always feasible. [I don't have time for this crap, I'm hungry now])
A bag of chips might seem like a bad idea to someone with means but if you haven't eaten in 12 hours, and find yourself in a stinky bodega with questionable refrigeration, chips don't seem like such a bad idea.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Damn, you got me.
If i had my way everyone would be kept locked in dirty little cages and force fed gruel twice a day but society demands that i not appear to be a complete psychopath. I satiate my sadism by advocating policies that are I know are actually cruel to well-intended but niave members of Internet gaming forums.
Well i did until you exposed me for who i really am.
Jerk.
