2metraninja: anything you want discussed for the upcoming 1-2 turns?
Ot4e: well
Ot4e: I dont think that there is something important we havent discussed yet
Ot4e: I talked with RB yesterday
2metraninja: oh, and?
Ot4e: they tried to press on me
2metraninja: how it felt?
Ot4e: as usually
2metraninja: hehe
2metraninja: they are not ashame to do this
2metraninja: their nerves go thin lately
2metraninja: we told them 2 days ago we wont extend NAP
Ot4e: saying that we funded Apolyton for getting rifles and literally asking "what do we prepare for our own back"
2metraninja: last night their ambassador reached our RB ambassador and started with: "Steel for cannons, eh?"
Ot4e: but in the end they tried to propose to buy us
Ot4e: they said that they are ready not only to get NAP with all but give away some units
2metraninja: yes, they proposed that we and Poly conquer Uciv
2metraninja: or we all 3 rip CivFR
Ot4e: us they tried to send on Civfr
2metraninja: yes, yes
2metraninja: there were 2 schemes
2metraninja: initially one where they buy us and Poly
2metraninja: and then included you too
Ot4e: thanks a lot to them for that
2metraninja:
nah, we wont
2metraninja: we will thank them with units sent trough their territory
Ot4e: I expected that it will also take place when they understand that they cant just get NAP, they will try to propose something
Ot4e: the best thing they can is not just to make NAP but drop their units to lower expenses
Ot4e: and get rid of potential enemies
Ot4e: as uciv and civfr
Ot4e: uciv has just refused to help us
2metraninja: did they?
Ot4e: yes
2metraninja: in straight words?
Ot4e: Hi,
We don't like your tone. We prefer to stop negociations.
Yuufo
Ot4e: this is all what I got
Ot4e: for convincing them for like a month
Ot4e: or even few months
Ot4e: but I realised that they wont help a while ago
Ot4e: so didnt rely on it
2metraninja: hmm
2metraninja: interesting
2metraninja: do you suspect there was some influence from RB?
Ot4e: not really
2metraninja: good
Ot4e: they are just strange bastards of their own
2metraninja: and what was your tone btw?
Ot4e: or how did you name this?
2metraninja:
yes, they are strange
2metraninja: rare birds lol
Ot4e: nothing special
Ot4e: in my tone
Ot4e: I didnt get reply for more than 2 weeks
Ot4e: and tried to hurry them
2metraninja: well, "nothing special" for one may be irritating the hell out of someone else
2metraninja: aha
Ot4e: may be a bit
Ot4e: but it is just an excuse
Ot4e: no more than that
2metraninja: so it was more for rushing them to take position rather than what you asked them for
Ot4e: if i didnt press on them they just forget to reply at all
Ot4e: I said that egypt has 36 cities and it is important for us both to do something
2metraninja: very interesting
Ot4e: i value my time and if a group of dudes cant find time to make a formal answer it is their problem
Ot4e: may be they will find mutual language with RB now
2metraninja: because in their last message to us they said: "We will join you, but not the way you ask us for" (we asked them to raze the GT city.
[ | Edited 10:04:04] Ot4e: somebody had to take their position
2metraninja: luckily we have NAP to t200
Ot4e: yes otherwise I'd worry about how exactly are they going to "join you"
2metraninja: lol, like "plug in us"
2metraninja: or said prophane us in the ass
2metraninja: let me ask you something connected to Uciv
Ot4e: ofc
2metraninja: do you like in principle the 3-way uber-alliance of us 3 to take care about the remaining teams after hopefully we are done with RB?
2metraninja: how you look at it, do you have moral scruples as our knight MZ?
Ot4e: no I dont have, let's put those bastards on their knees if those are still bendable with their absolute fat
Ot4e: but the details of how we cooperate are important
2metraninja: against RB?
Ot4e: will be interesting to understand your view
Ot4e: not only RB
Ot4e: how do we deal among ourselves
Ot4e: against RB I hope we cooperate in the right way already
2metraninja:
ok
2metraninja: personally I see our cooperation against the other teams as fair split between efforts and gains
Ot4e: fair is such a subjective thing
Ot4e: I asked RB about WPC
Ot4e: I know it is not related to us anyway
Ot4e: but they think they've done everything fair
2metraninja: it is not. if someone differs a lot in his understanding what is fair, then for me he is either biased or outright greedy and trying to use me
Ot4e: "Germans would take much of WPC's land if we didnt stop them, so they must be thankful"
Ot4e: I understand what you are speaking about. I hope we have small difference in our views on what is fair. But as you already noticed that we do have some. And yes, everyone is biased. May be in the face of MZ we will see something that differs a lot from our view and we will call him biased
Ot4e: I am sure that all cooperation must be based on absolute fairness
Ot4e: but how to reach it is the task of concrete discussion
2metraninja: yes, of course we will discuss (even if needed bargain) what is fair
Ot4e: and how not to fall aboard when we all become rather strong compared to others
2metraninja: but this is minor obstacle for me. main thing is if we see us 3 keeping our group together and reap the benefits from defeating the biggest and strongest team in the game, not only taking the negatives
2metraninja: do you think that after whipping/drafting ~100 units each and fighting some 30 turns war with RB, we will be in better shape than CivFR for example?
2metraninja: with all their cottages matured to towns and in advanced modern civics?
Ot4e: I never said that
Ot4e: so you think that having at least one 3rd side who lives better is enough to maintain frienship and cooperation between us?
Ot4e: in general as I said you dont need to convince me
Ot4e: I am not seeking for better allies than you
Ot4e: but I am not sure how will I motivate you to start war with uciv once we sign something after we divide RBs land
2metraninja: I believe that if we stop our cooperation after we HOPEFULLY defeat RB, this will be disadvantageous for us all 3
2metraninja: and I do believe we need to use the momentum we will create with having all armies in one place and being 3, to create local super-advantage of 3vs1. rince and repeat. when we are done, there will be only 3 viable teams left
Ot4e: I hope this will be the best scenario I can expect
Ot4e: I hope this will be
Ot4e: and this is the best scenario I am currently expecting
2metraninja: the other option is we start to plot with other teams who stayed out of the war. or even worse - 2vs1 between the allies. BUT! this will put all our efforts so far and those who we are just going to make to vain
2metraninja: we kill each-other's expensive armies
2metraninja: and we gain not much, always being more backward than those who never fought
Ot4e: yeah not really goo
Ot4e: d
Ot4e: what can we do now to avoid it?
2metraninja: to say to each-other: we agree to put everything against RB in order to get them dead for good and then we promise each-other to stick together until we kill off all other teams
2metraninja: MZ outright asid he see the logic, but cant YET agree to this, as he have moral scruples
Ot4e: what is the criteria of "sticking together"? in my view we can continue focusing on military while you may consider "enough" and start building economy
Ot4e: just as an example
Ot4e: yes, we stick, but I give sun-protection creme to my soldiers while you are getting attacked from the behind
2metraninja: I said already clear
2metraninja: [10:32] 2metraninja:
<<< I do believe we need to use the momentum we will create with having all armies in one place and being 3, to create local super-advantage of 3vs1. rince and repeat. when we are done, there will be only 3 viable teams left
Ot4e: so it supposes that we promise each other not to use accumulated during RBs campaign armies against each other and to use them against uciv and civfr in order we need to discuss? and nothing more?
Ot4e: I understand the plot, but I am trying to understand details by asking questions. Dont get mad at me
2metraninja: of course
2metraninja: it is best to ask instead of we having wrong impression or misunderstandings
Ot4e: Yes we must have the same understanding and expectations
Ot4e: from each other
[ | Edited 10:55:25] Ot4e: I like an idea, but I am not sure if we do (agree on this, swear on finger and etc..), what can I expect from you and what you expect from me
2metraninja: I can imagine you met and dealt with all kind of douchebags playing so many years Civ.
2metraninja: but it is interesting to know if you accept everyone being douche as standart or you are just worried if I am the next douchebag you will have to deal with and take measures of precaution
2metraninja: like the case with Uciv sending settler to resettle our fought for land taken from the Zulus without a single word
2metraninja: for me, this is totally unacceptable
2metraninja: where you said it is OK.
2metraninja: I will ALWAYS have something on my mind about Uciv trying this.
2metraninja: they are no longer ally which I can trust
2metraninja: co-worker - yes
2metraninja: but not friend and ally
2metraninja: and I was wondered if you saying "it is normal" means this - that "unfortunately most of the civvers are douchebags and opportunists" or "it is fair and OK deed"
Ot4e: of course I wasnt in your situation, so no extra emotions I could feel about this.
The fact that I dont do such things doesnt change the fact that I have to estimate that such things are possible. Not just because all civers are douchebags. But you are right there are plenty of them.
And unfortunatelly it cant be considered as violating NAP from my view. Of course such action spoils the relations and may be forever. You mentioned once "we dont do this to friends". Possible they were not seeking for your friendship. Having long NAP was just fine with them.
And I dont think that we have different views on this. I'd do the same that you have done. But if they find the way to plant I'd consider it my mistake that I havent discussed this.
Ot4e: Thats is partitually why I try to avoid long NAPs or obligations
Ot4e: What if your NAP with them was going to expire in observeable period and they'd need to extend it?
Ot4e: how would they behave?
Ot4e: and you could be calm about this all
Ot4e: not even worry a bit
Ot4e: "okay ucivers, prepare to the worst"
Ot4e: bah bah bah bah...
* the sound of victory in combat
* the sound of city razed
Ot4e: when we agreed on NAP with them, they stopped replying me at all
Ot4e: they got what they needed
Ot4e: "cooperate?" *big eyes
"what for"
2metraninja: all you say is fair and I agree with except
[11:10] Ot4e:
<<< And I dont think that we have different views on this. I'd do the same that you have done. But if they find the way to plant I'd consider it my mistake that I havent discussed this.there is no need to discuss such things. it is common sense and common good behaviour amongst civilized grown-ups. something like unwritten moral codex
2metraninja: I know the law works like this: anything which is not explictly forbidden is allowed
2metraninja: but this is more about moral and relationships and it sets trends
Ot4e: people failed discribing moral with laws that what I can say
2metraninja: Uciv's actions and attitude I can understand, but asking between us "what will guarantee that if we agree to stick together and fight the rest of the teams, someone will not send their soldiers to only sunbathing in the trenches", for me this is alarming and disturbing. it means there is place for such disbelief between us. and as you quoted me right, we dont do such things to friends
2metraninja: I can be friend with a competitor of mine, they are not contradictionary
Ot4e: you got all wrong
Ot4e: I try to show on example
Ot4e: which is of course exaggerated
Ot4e: because you will not see details I want to pull your attention to
Ot4e: how can I be sure that you will be as enthusiastic as me
Ot4e: how can I affect on you if I feel that your efforts are not appropriate?
2metraninja: you know what?
2metraninja: same problem stays with me
2metraninja: how I can be sure that you will be enthusiastic and comitted as me
Ot4e: I asked first
Ot4e: of course same with you
Ot4e: you must have the same questions
Ot4e: and I know how do you calm yourself
Ot4e: may be it will work with me too
2metraninja: for me it is straight-forwarded. If we want to kill RB, we need to sacrifice big. If we sacrifice big, we need to go further and kill the rest of the teams to not find ourselves in "defeated victors" a.k.a. Phyric victory situation
Ot4e: did you play warcraft2?
Ot4e: there was a unit for orcs, ogre with 2 heads
2metraninja: I did for short period, I know the basics
Ot4e: one head was saying "we are ready, master"
another immediately replies " I am not ready"
Ot4e: we need to keep a balance between sacrificing and development anyway.
2metraninja:
I think exactly the opposite
Ot4e: so we are going to walk with maces over the world?
Ot4e: we will hardly surprise civfr and in case of uciv definitually no
2metraninja: way more possible than waiting to get rifles to fight RB
Ot4e: even if we triple them in numbers
Ot4e: we fight with RB without delay
2metraninja: but are we gonna defeat them with maces?
2metraninja: if we want this, we must bring a lot of maces
Ot4e: i think maces wont work
Ot4e: you know
Ot4e: even if we somehow bring 3 times of what they have now
2metraninja: I know few things about dogpiles and most important is that half-hearted dogpiles NEVER work
Ot4e: that's why we are juming in with full heart
2metraninja: it is not literally about the heart's desires, but actual efforts made
2metraninja: if we field 30-40 units each.. what is this?
2metraninja: defensive armies
2metraninja: if we draft/whip to 80-100 each... this is already attacking force
Ot4e: we bring what we can. We dont have time to wait for 100 if you mean this
Ot4e: will have to deal with what we've prepared by now
Ot4e: because we have no time
Ot4e: they will use time too and it is good question what is better
2metraninja: ok, I know how this works too. each of us prepares 40 units each. and we jump in to the breach
2metraninja: the victim of course retreats initially
2metraninja: to gather their own forces together
2metraninja: we happily advance, capture empty cities, etc. they prepare 15 catapults and 40 other units, they annihilate our still 40 units stack and they move on the next 40-units stack which invades them
2metraninja: where, if each of us have 40 units and moves in, but continues to add like 5-6 units each turn to this number, this is 100 units in 10 turns
2metraninja: not so easy to dislodge
2metraninja: like 40
Ot4e: of course we wont stop on 40 units
Ot4e: where did you find this?
Ot4e: but 40 may be even enough for the beginning
2metraninja: sacrifise big means count your total population except 1-2-3 bigest cities - capitol, etc... then divide this number by 2. and you get how much units you MUST field.
Ot4e: I know how to attack
2metraninja:
yes, and exactly because of that I search for other reason why you keep saying this: "we must balance" where I think it is absolutely clear we need harsh measures if we want to defeat RB
2metraninja: and not only keep the statu quo
2metraninja: status
Ot4e: because at one moment it will not just require you to bring 5-6 units per turn but will ask you "where are your rifles?"
Ot4e: what if uciv changes its mind and gift gold to RB?
Ot4e: we must act right now but take measures to keep above the surface later
Ot4e: what exactly "sacrifice" means is to provide maximum reasonable military output
Ot4e: not only right now, but in short future too
2metraninja: have you watched Gathaca?
Ot4e: but i still dont understand why do we even start this discussion
2metraninja: how "why?"
Ot4e: no
2metraninja: to give me idea of your intentions
2metraninja: in Gathaca (watch it - it is great movie) they found a way to make genetically chosen babies. Yes, it is still not something artificial, they are still their parrent's kids, just they choose between 1000000's of combination the best possible genes
2metraninja: so, the babies which are born not only dont have genetic diseases or issues, but to be smart, strong, good-looking, etc, etc
2metraninja: so, the main character is born trough the "normal way" - i.e. - random combination of genes. his smaller brother is gene product - he is taller, have blue eyes, way more handsome, stronger, etc, etc
2metraninja: they two use to make competition in swimming
Ot4e: i've read short description
2metraninja: the idea is who will swim further in the sea
Ot4e: utopia
2metraninja: and guess what? the normal kid always beats his super-brother
2metraninja: and when they are already grown up, they make one final race
2metraninja: the normal brother wins again
2metraninja: and his super-gene-product brother asks him: "How"
Ot4e: how?
2metraninja: and Ethan Hawke say: "I never leave power for the returning"
2metraninja: he swims as this is the last thing he will do
2metraninja: his super-brother calculates things, he evaluates things, try to balance
2metraninja: and in one moment he just gives up
2metraninja: and his other brother wins
Ot4e: and sinks
2metraninja: no
Ot4e: great
2metraninja: well, it is good that we cleared what to expect from each-other regard RB
2metraninja: you thin we will sink if we swim with full force
2metraninja: so we will keep forces for returning back too
Ot4e: I dont find metaphors as the best way to discribe what is going on
Ot4e: they are nice, good, something that you wanted to say or hear
Ot4e: but I prefer to have a pragmatic view
Ot4e: from my view we are doing our bests to prepare to attack with what we have
Ot4e: i dont understand if you are satisfied with it or not
Ot4e: is that what you were going to say me with this all?
2metraninja: "best" is like "fair"
2metraninja: for me "best" means we must go berserk and sacrifice big
2metraninja: for you, it is balancing things
Ot4e: we do sacrifice
Ot4e: and this balance is quite disproportional
Ot4e: but all the world is balance
Ot4e: everything
2metraninja: and I was obliged to know how you intend to go, so we dont overdo things ourselves and then been told: "it is your fault you whipped/drafted everything to the bone, now we cant help you fight the other advanced teams"
Ot4e: no idea why do you hate this word so much
[ | Edited 13:00:49] 2metraninja: balance have synonims which I hate
Ot4e: sounds like you wont lift a finger up from now
2metraninja: mediocricy, indifference, monotony
2metraninja:
no
2metraninja: of course I will lift finger, all my two hands too, but just wont jump "head-up"
[ | Edited 13:02:42] Ot4e: we dont see reasonable ways to sacrifice more than we already aimed to
Ot4e: I dont understand what do you ask me for
Ot4e: we are yes "jumping above the head"
2metraninja: I asked if you agree with me that going all-out in this war and then catching up by dogpiling the rest of the teams is OK with you. and from your answer I understand that you think this is not the way to go, but you prefer and will do balancing fighting with RB, hoping that it will be enough
Ot4e: you warp what I say
2metraninja: am I ?
2metraninja: sorry, it is not intentional
Ot4e: you are
2metraninja: I swear this is what impression I got from this chat
Ot4e: I said I am ok with dogpiling everyone in general. Didnt I?
But I want to understand details. This is all I wanted to know. Obligations like detalization.
Now you blame me or us as team that we dont prepare to attack properly. This is a bit insulting if you are serious.
2metraninja: no no
2metraninja: wait, dont play it insulted
Ot4e: may be that was me who said that you cant affect how do another side prepares to attack. But I did not mean that you can immediately start
2metraninja: all I said is I have different understanding about how we must prepare
2metraninja: and I have the right to know if you plan to "jump with the head forward" or play a 12-round boxing match and spare powers for the long rounds that are to come
Ot4e: metaphors
Ot4e: for this I have to notice that we cant fall down if opponent stands until round 2
2metraninja: you said you will not hurt your nation much and balance things, so we will. we have serious discussion in our team too, where we are divided - do we must field 100 muskets and 30 cannons, ruining our economy and using the culture slider to keep our cities from starving
Ot4e: it doesnt meant that we wont try to knock out him in round 1
Ot4e: of course you can just ask
Ot4e: how are our preparations going?
2metraninja: if we have assurance of our allies they will commit the same level, we are ready to make such sacrifice
2metraninja: if our allies say they will prepare, but not beyond the balancing point, we will do the same, understandable, yes?
Ot4e: for last 20 turns we only produce farms and chops, fewer mines.
Our population is at the limit, it is the lowest one (except WPCs) at this moment and we are not planning to grow it soon because we will have to slave each 2-3 turns
Ot4e: we of course had plans to use Sofia to cottage each spot in our land and only cut fruits
Ot4e: but we sacrifice this and rejected many hybrid combination of growth attack
Ot4e: without your requests
Ot4e: because we know we have no chance if we dont sacrifice really much
2metraninja: look, look
2metraninja: I think you get it too personal
Ot4e: and being the weakest civ (except WPC again) we had no plans to win time to jump ahead compared to you
Ot4e: afk sorry
2metraninja: nothing tragic happened, I just asked if you see things as us and if you are willing to go to extremes in the war vs RB
2metraninja: because we were serious considering doing this and considering it the right choice
2metraninja: agree with me that it would have been stupid situation we to whip/draft everything to size 1-2 and seeing you do not do the same - or MZ - and then ask you: "But why are you not preparing as hard as we are? and you to say: but this is the hardest we can allow ourselves and as result we to feel stupid and tricked and used. it is far better to ask in advance, right?
2metraninja: and avoid bad feelings
Ot4e: what is extremely for one can be impossible for another and be normal to the third
Ot4e: you are trying to measure things with the same straightedge
2metraninja: no, it would have been if I measure things with numbers
Ot4e: if you ask me what is the best city for draft I'd say it is size 5-7, but not 1-2
2metraninja: if I say "everyone bring 100 units" then it is measuring up with straight edge
Ot4e: same with slave
Ot4e: almost
2metraninja: if I say: "everyone brings all he can whip/draft by sacrificing 90% of his population", then it is sizeable and more fair
Ot4e: going down to 1-2-3 is good only when you are going to be killed anyway
Ot4e: in other situation it is wrong move imho
Ot4e: if you literally ask for this, then I am still not convinced that we have to do it
Ot4e: and you too
Ot4e: because if you get to size 2 this means that you wont get 5-6 units turn when you need later
Ot4e: about which we have talked and gone to the same position as far as I understand
Ot4e: and even from optimistical view we cant estimate that we will win this in 1 day
2metraninja: yes, not in 1 day, of course
2metraninja: but if we dance around for 100 days
2metraninja: we wont win anyway
Ot4e: i know this
Ot4e: as I said we are at maximum production
Ot4e: you know we are the smallest civ
Ot4e: with the smallest number of cottages
2metraninja: yes and I never said anything to use this as argument
Ot4e: and we are still going to slave some of them
2metraninja: about cottages, we can argue
2metraninja: I am sure you have bigger GNP than us for example
Ot4e: but if we slave more
Ot4e: we will run out of maintance
Ot4e: and get strike
2metraninja: I doubt that, but I am not sure, taking your word as it is
Ot4e: you can count cottages if you dont beleive
Ot4e: i think we have 2 or 3 times less of them than you
2metraninja: you spend 150 or 200 gpt at most
2metraninja: is our estimation
Ot4e: what can I do against the demohackers squad
Ot4e: we pay less maintance now
Ot4e: but it is growing each turn as our power
Ot4e: and we are not going to say "enough"
Ot4e: so this will continue changing
Ot4e: we dont produce much wealth at 0% too
Ot4e: and we have no access to draft
Ot4e: we think we will be more effective without it
Ot4e: because specific of our frontline
2metraninja: I just wanted to express my worries that if we dont go to extremes, we cant kill the beast
2metraninja: and if we fail the dogpile, this will be game over for all of us
Ot4e: we are so damn extreme
2metraninja:
ok, I accept that
Ot4e: but actually we had to put few more farms because our food is so bad
2metraninja: just tell me, how with nearly strike situation you plan to get to rifles?
Ot4e: with those farms we will be able to slave faster and better
2metraninja: we would really enjoy rifles too ourselves
2metraninja: but we just struggle to see it as possible option before we go in to recover mode again
Ot4e: i didnt say we will get rifles
Ot4e: you remember I even bet beer that you will get it faster
2metraninja: you said we will be asked where are our rifles straight after I said we wont keep power and think for "after RB"
2metraninja:
I remember as me betting a beer and you did not took that bet
Ot4e: it was the situation
Ot4e: who could ask you
Ot4e: but the answers can be different
Ot4e: you can say, "no i dont have, but i have cannons and 100 muskets"
2metraninja: yes, I can say this, because I am ready to get those
Ot4e: it can be better answer than rifles but no units
2metraninja: and not think about rifles in the unforeaseable future
Ot4e: I am sure in that
Ot4e: this must be enough
Ot4e: for RB
Ot4e: i didnt mean to get rifles soon
Ot4e: may be if we get great spy but i doubt we get so lucky as MZ
2metraninja:
we want to try our chances too
Ot4e: so you have back-up plan
Ot4e: how shame was to try to conceal it
Ot4e:
Ot4e: our first shot was GP
2metraninja: haha, conceal?
2metraninja: it is like 2 % chance
Ot4e: which brought us closer to rifling?
Ot4e: yes a bit
Ot4e: 2% is small chance
2metraninja: if I am telling you now, how am I concealing it?
Ot4e: but everything is possible
Ot4e: it was a joke
Ot4e: relax
Ot4e: you blame me that I am digging a back-up plan I need to defend
2metraninja:
I know it is a joke
