Former US Generals urge action on climate change (!?!)

The U.S. already has a lot of said cleaner, more efficient technology. We have for decades.

The technology has failed to propogate to many parts of the Third World. Your model doesn't seem to have worked.
 
The U.S. researches new, cleaner technology. Fine and dandy. The problem being that the U.S. has it--and China doesn't.

China doesn't want to spend resources of its own to research it. China doesn't want to buy the technology from America. American companies refuse to give it away to China.

And there ya go, Zig. Research doesn't solve the problem.
 
You don't think China will aquire the technology via other ways than just the US? If it's also cheaper, do you think China will refuse to use it?

They might be communist, they aint that stupid.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-02-06-china-climate-change_x.htm

Justin Mundy, a government adviser on climate change, pointed to the current low levels of aquifers in Shanghai as a prime example of the problems China faces. Shanghai is going to have to use desalinized water in the next 10 years, then build the infrastructure to import water from Southwest China, he said.

"All the water in the southwest of China is fed by glacial melt," he said. "Glacial melt in about 25 years' time is not going to be there in anything like the capacity that is going to be required. What then, Shanghai?"

It's for their own good as well.
 
You don't think China will aquire the technology via other ways than just the US? If it's also cheaper, do you think China will refuse to use it?
They have so far. Not always for monetary reasons. One of the issues at the forefront of the Chinese government is how to maintain control over their citizens. They were very slow to allow China to hook up to the Internet for precisely that reason.
 
They have so far. Not always for monetary reasons. One of the issues at the forefront of the Chinese government is how to maintain control over their citizens. They were very slow to allow China to hook up to the Internet for precisely that reason.
What viable alternative to oilbased energy production has China refused so far?

This might intrest you.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/China/Background.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/China/Environment.html
The Chinese government has taken several steps to improve environmental conditions in the country. Chief among these is the new Law on Renewable Energy, which took effect on January 1, 2006. The new law seeks to promote cleaner energy technologies, with a stated goal of increasing the use of renewable energy to 10 percent of the country’s electricity consumption by 2010 (up from roughly 3 percent in 2003).
 
If the economy can only benefit from making environmental improvements then those environmental improvements will be done by the industry, not by some retired generals, and they will be done regardless anthropogenic driven global warming is true or not.

No they won't. An industry does not think wrt long-term benefits for others, just for itself (and mostly in the short-term). Pollution has a distributed effect - it's spread out, a corporation is happy to pollute as long as they're making a net profit at it. They'll offload their costs onto anybody, if they can.

It's people who think in terms of 'general economy' (i.e., citizens) who should be concerned about something hurting the economy. I'm affected by a drop in economic growth, polluting industries might be better off polluting anyway.
 
No they won't. An industry does not think wrt long-term benefits for others, just for itself (and mostly in the short-term). Pollution has a distributed effect - it's spread out, a corporation is happy to pollute as long as they're making a net profit at it. They'll offload their costs onto anybody, if they can.

It's people who think in terms of 'general economy' (i.e., citizens) who should be concerned about something hurting the economy. I'm affected by a drop in economic growth, polluting industries might be better off polluting anyway.

Indeed. Unless polluters have to pay, it's a case of the tragedy of the commons. We have to work together on this one...
 
Well, you are saying that everybody is gonna die cos the global warming thingy. Some retired generals are predicting millions of displaced people, wars and famine. Is not something to panic about?

Clearly you missed the point. It's something of a famous quote explaining why industry will never properly control it's pollution, as you just agreed with above. Do not suggest that industry will self regulate, and then agree with a statement saying they won't.

Umpf... Batteries are not a primary source of energy, You need energy to charge the batteries. And they are expensive, environmentally dangerous and inefficient, they lose energy over time if the battery is not used. And good luck with running a truck powered by batteries.

No, they are not a primary source of energy. But they allow us to concentrate primary energy production, which makes it easier and cheaper to reduce emissions.

Economics was the science of the wrong predictions of the 19th century. (Malthus and company) Climatology is the science of the wrong prediction of the 21st century.

Well then, perhaps you would like to suggest a superior model we can use? Despite all its missteps in the past, Economics is the best study of the financial world around us. Until you can do better, I'd suggest you not bash it.

Moreover, if you centralize energy production and then you distribute the energy produced, you are going to lose power transporting energy. Decentralizing energy production yields better results, both economically and environmentally since less energy is wasted in the transportation.

Moreover, if you decentralize energy productions, and then distribute the energy in the form of fuel oil and gases, you lose energy transporting energy. Decentralizing energy has arisen because of automobiles, however you tend to waste more energy in the transportation.

And electricity transmission will get cheaper before moving oil around does.

Nuclear power and solar/wind power are OK, but there is no way you can run a car effectively with nuclear, solar or wind power. But hey, if you know how to, then go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

There are a number of commercially produced electric cars now approaching the market. Many industrial vehicles today are run off of Hydrogen reactors.

And if it is so easy and economically feasible that everybody is going to change because the change is not traumatic at all then Why some retired generals are warning about possible world conflicts due to the predicted effects of global warming?

Because it's not that easy to change. Although the technology is around, it costs money. And like several people on both side of the argument have pointed out, nobody is going to change unless their competitors are.
 
What viable alternative to oilbased energy production has China refused so far?
It's more a matter of China failing to clean up what they're using now; they've been using "dirty" coal as one of their primary sources for a long time. They've done far worse damage to their environment than the U.S. ever did, and the only reason they're beginning to pay attention to the problem now is because it's having a significant negative impact on their economic growth--and their pocketbook.

U.S. green technology has for the most part failed to migrate to China, and they're still lagging far behind. The progress they're making is mostly due to their own efforts rather than U.S. inventions.

The final analysis being that it doesn't do much good for us to develop new goodies; to clean up the planet, we need to get THEM to do the same. Especially considering China has three times the population the U.S. does and will be three times as big of a problem as the U.S. if and when China finally catches up to the U.S. economically.

The only way to get other nations to start cleaning up seems to be to point guns at them, and nobody seems to be willing to do that today.
 
It's more a matter of China failing to clean up what they're using now; they've been using "dirty" coal as one of their primary sources for a long time. They've done far worse damage to their environment than the U.S. ever did, and the only reason they're beginning to pay attention to the problem now is because it's having a significant negative impact on their economic growth--and their pocketbook.

U.S. green technology has for the most part failed to migrate to China, and they're still lagging far behind. The progress they're making is mostly due to their own efforts rather than U.S. inventions.

The final analysis being that it doesn't do much good for us to develop new goodies; to clean up the planet, we need to get THEM to do the same. Especially considering China has three times the population the U.S. does and will be three times as big of a problem as the U.S. if and when China finally catches up to the U.S. economically.

The only way to get other nations to start cleaning up seems to be to point guns at them, and nobody seems to be willing to do that today.

All right, that's a fair enough assessment of China. And I agree. But two things:

1. You said yourself China is now starting to clean up its act because it must. China knows it cannot continue like this.

2. The US is NO angel either. I'm sure I don't need to bring out the stats and figures but the US is a leading contributor too. And must change as well.
 
@BasketCase

I was also talking about cheaper energy. You think that China can afford to stay behind when this yet-to-be-invented cheaper clean energy is going to be used. That would mean that their products would be out of the market, simply because we can make them cheaper. We don't need guns, they need money.

You can't draw parallels with the current situation, since the energy I am talking about is still not here. That's why I said we needed to do more research. To which you replied we allready have clean energy. yeah, but is it cheap? Efficient? We might have developed some clean energy, but it is less efficient and too expensive compared to oil and the effort it would take to change to a clean form of energy. China is indeed just started crawling out of it's hole, but it's also starting to realise that GW has severe consequences for it's country (see source).
 
No they won't. An industry does not think wrt long-term benefits for others, just for itself (and mostly in the short-term). Pollution has a distributed effect - it's spread out, a corporation is happy to pollute as long as they're making a net profit at it. They'll offload their costs onto anybody, if they can.

It's people who think in terms of 'general economy' (i.e., citizens) who should be concerned about something hurting the economy. I'm affected by a drop in economic growth, polluting industries might be better off polluting anyway.

Not mine, not yours, We are talking in too general terms. There are specific situations where you are right and specific situations where I am right. My point is that any industry seeks innovation, otherwise it will perish. Innovation usually takes place in the form of discovering new ways of producing goods more efficiently than the existing ones. More efficient means higher yields, meaning, usually, less waste and therefore less polluting.

As for the energy producing industry, innovation means not only new ways of generating energy, but also improving the old ways, usually by increasing efficiency, which means higher output with the same input, and less pollution for the same output. That is generally speaking.


Clearly you missed the point.

Nope, I just don't agree with you. Why people think I don't understand what they mean when is just that I don't agree with them?

It's something of a famous quote explaining why industry will never properly control it's pollution, as you just agreed with above. Do not suggest that industry will self regulate, and then agree with a statement saying they won't.

Already explained above.

No, they are not a primary source of energy. But they allow us to concentrate primary energy production, which makes it easier and cheaper to reduce emissions.

Nope, You lose some energy when you transfer it into a battery, you lose even more if you keep the battery charged but idle over time. (I see it every day when I fully charge the battery of my laptop in the evening and I turn it on the following morning, It doesn't say 100 % charged, it says 90 % or something like that, and much less if you leave the battery unused over the weekend) You don't reduce emissions, you increase them because of that extra you have to pay to charge your battery and keep it charged.


Well then, perhaps you would like to suggest a superior model we can use? Despite all its missteps in the past, Economics is the best study of the financial world around us. Until you can do better, I'd suggest you not bash it.

Pointing out missteps is not bashing.

Moreover, if you decentralize energy productions, and then distribute the energy in the form of fuel oil and gases, you lose energy transporting energy. Decentralizing energy has arisen because of automobiles, however you tend to waste more energy in the transportation.

Dude, decentralizing energy production has nothing to do with automobiles. YOu are mixing up things. When you have a big coal plant burning coal and producing energy, you have a centralized energy production. THen you have to transport that energy to the place is going to be used, and you lose energy in the transportation, the farther, the more energy you lose. Decentralizing would be to produce the energy you need on-site so you don't waste part of the produced energy by transporting it from one place to another.

As for automobiles it make no sense talking about centralizing since we use automobiles to move around. ( Jeez that is what automobile stands for, auto = by itself mobile = moving, like la donna, qual piuma al vento)

And electricity transmission will get cheaper before moving oil around does.

'Will" denotes wishful thinking. We don't have room temperature superconductor materials and they are not expected in the near future. Until then, moving and storing electricity is more expensive.



There are a number of commercially produced electric cars now approaching the market. Many industrial vehicles today are run off of Hydrogen reactors.

So, how come I haven't seen any yet in my neigbourhood? (appart from my neigbour's electric wheelchair?


Because it's not that easy to change.

It is when there is a clear benefit. I have changed from floppy to CD and from CD to DVD. In this case the benefit is obvious.

Although the technology is around, it costs money.

That is the whole point. it costs money, there are much more expensive that gasoline cars. It shows how much people really cares or believes in the global warming thing. Does Al Gore have an electric car? NOPE. (If he had, it would be in the news) That is exactly how much he really cares about environment.

And like several people on both side of the argument have pointed out, nobody is going to change unless their competitors are.
Just the opposite is true. The first company who introduces a new product in the market is the one who takes the largest share. The company who discovers a new niche and put its product in the market first is the one with more possibilities of becoming leader in that niche. The real reason there are not electric cars running on the streets is because nobody wants to buy any.
 
2. The US is NO angel either. I'm sure I don't need to bring out the stats and figures but the US is a leading contributor too. And must change as well.
Once again: how far are you prepared to go to enforce this change which, according to you, "must" happen....?

When it does not happen (and it is not happening fast enough to make the radical tree-huggers happy), what are you gonna do about it? Hell, you've got this particular American right here (i.e. me) who doesn't seem to be listening to you. When your words don't work on me, what's next?

Probably nothing. In the current political environment, with everybody worldwide terrified of more violence, I know very well you don't have the stomach to point guns at me and force me to toe your line.

On that note, I need to reply to another poster.
 
You can't draw parallels with the current situation, since the energy I am talking about is still not here.
Too late. Already did. We DO have that new cheaper and cleaner energy. They don't. How do we get said energy from here to there?


That's why I said we needed to do more research. To which you replied we allready have clean energy.
Actually, my reply was more along the lines of how we're going to get China to do it.

China is indeed just started crawling out of it's hole, but it's also starting to realise that GW has severe consequences for it's country (see source).
Correction: China doesn't give a crap about global warming. By cleaning up their act, I meant that they're trying to get the trash out of their back yards, reduce the amount of soot in their atmosphere (which is so bad that some days you can't see the sun setting), and get the mercury out of their drinking water. Pollution-wise, China is where the U.S. was around thirty years ago.
 
Too late. Already did. We DO have that new cheaper and cleaner energy. They don't. How do we get said energy from here to there?
What energy source do you refer to here?
Actually, my reply was more along the lines of how we're going to get China to do it.
Allready answered that. Make cheaper products because we spend less on energy manufacturing those products. China would have to follow to keep up their economic growth or fall back.
Correction: China doesn't give a crap about global warming. By cleaning up their act, I meant that they're trying to get the trash out of their back yards, reduce the amount of soot in their atmosphere (which is so bad that some days you can't see the sun setting), and get the mercury out of their drinking water. Pollution-wise, China is where the U.S. was around thirty years ago.
Chief among these is the new Law on Renewable Energy, which took effect on January 1, 2006. The new law seeks to promote cleaner energy technologies, with a stated goal of increasing the use of renewable energy to 10 percent of the country’s electricity consumption by 2010 (up from roughly 3 percent in 2003).
It's a start.
 
What energy source do you refer to here?
All of them. Every energy source on the planet can be cleanified in various ways.

Allready answered that. Make cheaper products because we spend less on energy manufacturing those products. China would have to follow to keep up their economic growth or fall back.
Yet, they're not doing it. They can compete in other ways--such as with cheap labor. If they pay their workers one-fourth of minimum wage (something we in the U.S. cannot do because people with picket signs get all pissed off), what are you gonna do about it? Nothing.
 
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