Free Buildings

[Yid]

It might be... I know we can add stuff per pop, but I'm not sure if we can add it based on X or more pop.

Well, okay, maybe you can do that explicitly, for example:

Base maintanance: -3
+3 if city size == 1
+3 if city size == 2
+3 if city size == 3
+2 if city size == 4
+1 if city size == 5

This way it would stabilize at 6 or more. Is code like that possible?

 

[Iceciro]

I also do like the idea of the maintenance being proportional to the size of the city, along with benefit. Libraries in small towns are cheap and provide small boons. Libraries in big cities are expensive, but provide large benefits.

A workaround for this specific instance might be a building that is added to all cities of a certain pop or LESS and offsets maint.

Really, though; the issue is wonders like the NLS run cross-purpose to specialization, and specialization is the given reason why these buildings have maintenance at all; the wonder and the goal of the team seem to diverge.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think we should wait on the free buildings from Settler units. I would actually like to have them NOT make the buildings you can build and instead build a non buildable building such as ...

BoHS = N/A
Tribe = N/A
Settler = Settler's Camp
Colonist = Colonial Outpost
Pioneer = Pioneer's Fort

These buildings would be powerful in that they could help kick start to production, growth and culture of a new city but would still allow you to have to build the constructable buildings.

In addition I would like to make some guild/union buildings that give free buildings to every city. This in turn would mean that the Settler units would not even need to make those anyways.

EDIT: What file determines what buildings say a Colonist or Pioneer builds?

Looking at the Python code it appears that the colonist and pioneer give the folowing free buildings ...

Colonist
- Barracks
- Granary
- Forge
- Market
- Harbor
- Lighthouse
- Fisherman's Hut

Pioneer
- Garrison
- Granary
- Forge
- Courthouse
- Market
- Stables
- Grocer
- Doctor
- Bank
- Library
- Port
- Lighthouse
- Fisherman's Hut

If we must have these I suggest a Trading Post instead of the Market and Grocer. Or even have them give some basic housing instead of some of these other buildings.

 

[strategyonly]

Looking at the Python code it appears that the colonist and pioneer give the following free buildings ...


If we must have these I suggest a Trading Post instead of the Market and Grocer. Or even have them give some basic housing instead of some of these other buildings.

You dot to remember alot of the older coding and building were from the OLD Rom 2.7 and AND, and nothing has been changed that much BUT the Market and Grocer were definitely changed, way less important now.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think that the colonist and pioneer should just add the extra populations that they currently do. Colonist starts a city at size 2 and Pioneer at size 3.

The buildings the city gets free should be based on their technology level and their cultural imperitives.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have no problem with starting out with the city size larger than size 1, but I still think that a special starter building like a Colonial Outpost or Pioneer's Fort would be better than other pre-made buildings.

Especially with the Guild/Union National Wonders I plan to make which would give free buildings to every city if you meet the proper requirements. This should help a lot in that once you got the basic infrastructure set up in your main cities then they are automatically done for your new ones.

EDIT: So what's the hardest part of starting a new city? I would think growth, production and possibly health. So maybe something like this ...

Colonial Outpost
Cost: Cannot be Built (Given by Colonist upon founding City)
Tech: Navigation
Upgrades To: Pioneer Outpost
Health: +1
Culture: +1

• +5% Building Production
• Stores 5% of Food After Growth
• +5% Maintenance

Pioneer Outpost
Cost: Cannot be Built (Given by Pioneer upon founding City)
Tech: Steam Power
Health: +2
Culture: +2

• +10% Building Production
• Stores 10% of Food After Growth
• +10% Maintenance

What you think? Not too powerful but would give a nice starting boost. Could even say add a Settler one and move all the stats up a bit leaving the pioneer at +3 and 15% stats.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Which is the other part of this threads discussion. Those buildings are not free and you do not get benefits of scale that you should. You get the maintenance cost in every city of the building plus the cost of the master building. See my first post.

I feel that the maintenance cost of the Master building should offset the cost a number of the actual buildings.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Fine, not "Free" but "Premade" as in you do not need to spend time to build them.

 

[Koshling]

I have no problem with starting out with the city size larger than size 1, but I still think that a special starter building like a Colonial Outpost or Pioneer's Fort would be better than other pre-made buildings.

Especially with the Guild/Union National Wonders I plan to make which would give free buildings to every city if you meet the proper requirements. This should help a lot in that once you got the basic infrastructure set up in your main cities then they are automatically done for your new ones.

EDIT: So what's the hardest part of starting a new city? I would think growth, production and possibly health. So maybe something like this ...

Colonial Outpost
Cost: Cannot be Built (Given by Colonist upon founding City)
Tech: Navigation
Upgrades To: Pioneer Outpost
Health: +1
Culture: +1

• +5% Building Production
• Stores 5% of Food After Growth
• +5% Maintenance

Pioneer Outpost
Cost: Cannot be Built (Given by Pioneer upon founding City)
Tech: Steam Power
Health: +2
Culture: +2

• +10% Building Production
• Stores 10% of Food After Growth
• +10% Maintenance

What you think? Not too powerful but would give a nice starting boost. Could even say add a Settler one and move all the stats up a bit leaving the pioneer at +3 and 15% stats.

Health is irrelevant I think. By the time you get colonists you have so many plus to health resources in your trade network that small cities don't have issues.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so like the same thing but with no health bonus?

 

[TowerWizard]

The whole point of having free buildings in new cities is so that you do not have to build everything in them. It is such a put off to have to build EVERY building at full cost in every new city that I just hate to build a new city and have to go through all that again.

And to give a unique settler/pioneer building that can only be built with those units? How logical i that, really? You are saying that you want new cities to get a bonus to production and growth, even after it has grown as big as your capital?

Better make it so that every new building cost less if it exist already in your civ. The information exists, the game keeps track of constructed buildings. Have it follow a curve of reduced cost, like 8 % lower cost if you have one of the building, 15 % if you have two, 21 % if you have three, 27 % for four and scaling up to a maximum reduction of 33-40% at like 10 cities or something. I think it makes a lot of sense that this would happen. Your civ have had practice building the building, it knows how many trees it needs to use, and doesn't have to wast material unnecessarily.

This problem exists in regular civ IV, but that game have 20-30 buildings, not 300-400.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The whole point of having free buildings in new cities is so that you do not have to build everything in them. It is such a put off to have to build EVERY building at full cost in every new city that I just hate to build a new city and have to go through all that again.

And to give a unique settler/pioneer building that can only be built with those units? How logical i that, really? You are saying that you want new cities to get a bonus to production and growth, even after it has grown as big as your capital?

Better make it so that every new building cost less if it exist already in your civ. The information exists, the game keeps track of constructed buildings. Have it follow a curve of reduced cost, like 8 % lower cost if you have one of the building, 15 % if you have two, 21 % if you have three, 27 % for four and scaling up to a maximum reduction of 33-40% at like 10 cities or something. I think it makes a lot of sense that this would happen. Your civ have had practice building the building, it knows how many trees it needs to use, and doesn't have to wast material unnecessarily.

This problem exists in regular civ IV, but that game have 20-30 buildings, not 300-400.

I have to agree. You will still need to build the buildings anyway getting another free doesn't make sense.

I have a wonder (by platyping) that provides all cities with a discount of 20% for all buildings if they have been built in the capital. It would probably be easy to convert it into a standard C2C function.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What if they upgraded into a Village Hall?

At any rate I think the Guild/Union National Wonders should do the job for the main type of buildings such as a Baker's Guild giving "free" Bakery in every city. The guild itself would have either maintenance or negative gold through to help reduce the abundant gold problem. However if you have enough cities you should end up with a net gain. But possibly a loss if you had too few cities. Not to mention all the hammers you save by not having to build it in every city.

However vicinity buildings like Orange Orchards or Squid Nets would still have to be built by hand. This along with the other wonders that give "free" buildings should help lighten some of the micromanaging while still giving a rich diversity of buildings.

 

[AIAndy]

A completely different suggestion:
Currently building stuff in C2C (and all Civ games) is a completely ruler controlled approach. What if your citizens would be able to build buildings by themselves based on an accumulated property in the city. Lets call them City Development Points.
More advanced settler types bring more City Development Points to a new city. You could dedicate your production to City Development Points (similar to what you can now do for research or culture). And buildings could produce City Development Points.
With enough City Development Points a semi-random building can open up between turns reducing the City Development Points by a certain amount (either based on the production cost or a separate XML entry).

These could be implemented by generic properties (there might also be more than one type of such points).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why not just bring merchants/caravans with your settler and do the same thing?

EDIT: Maybe I miss understood. Are the Development Points much like random promotions for units? Every so often your city would build a building without wasting hammers? Or are you saying something different?

 

[strategyonly]

A completely different suggestion:
Currently building stuff in C2C (and all Civ games) is a completely ruler controlled approach. What if your citizens would be able to build buildings by themselves based on an accumulated property in the city. Lets call them City Development Points.
More advanced settler types bring more City Development Points to a new city. You could dedicate your production to City Development Points (similar to what you can now do for research or culture). And buildings could produce City Development Points.
With enough City Development Points a semi-random building can open up between turns reducing the City Development Points by a certain amount (either based on the production cost or a separate XML entry).

These could be implemented by generic properties (there might also be more than one type of such points).

Interesting idea, i think this should be in Praetyre's thread also

 

[AIAndy]

Why not just bring merchants/caravans with your settler and do the same thing?

EDIT: Maybe I miss understood. Are the Development Points much like random promotions for units? Every so often your city would build a building without wasting hammers? Or are you saying something different?

If your city has CDPs (City Development Points), then yes, a random (or probably not entirely random but driven by needs of the citizens) building would be built by the city now and then which uses up CDPs instead of hammers.
Building CDPs would mean you give your citizens some free room and time to open up their own business. So you have less control but it would also be cheaper to set up the basic buildings this way and less micromanagement needed.
Also your new cities get some starting CDPs depending on the settler type used.

 

[bill2505]

If your city has CDPs (City Development Points), then yes, a random (or probably not entirely random but driven by needs of the citizens) building would be built by the city now and then which uses up CDPs instead of hammers.
Building CDPs would mean you give your citizens some free room and time to open up their own business. So you have less control but it would also be cheaper to set up the basic buildings this way and less micromanagement needed.
Also your new cities get some starting CDPs depending on the settler type used.

also cdp would depend also in economic model. it you have a communist regime no cdp points .if you have a Fascist one few CDP and with free market CDP

 

[philipschall]

I personally like the reduced % building cost better. The CDP system would have some pitfalls, such as the town making buildings that would be obsolete rather quickly, or towns making buildings that put a dent in your gold when you are already strapped for coin.

The system seems somewhat similar to the Victoria systems of free or state controlled markets & construction. It's good for that game because its scope is mainly economics. To widen the scope of independently constructed buildings to military, religion, science, & growth might be disastrous, and rob the player of the "in-control" feeling this game gives.

 

[TowerWizard]

I have to agree. You will still need to build the buildings anyway getting another free doesn't make sense.

I have a wonder (by platyping) that provides all cities with a discount of 20% for all buildings if they have been built in the capital.

Thank you for agreeing with me! About the Wonder: as long as it is a National Wonder that unlocks fairly early, at the latest by the Classical age, I think that is a huge step in the right direction!

@Hydromancerx: (I don't know how to do multiple quotes like the one above? Anyone care to tell me how it is done?)

What if they upgraded into a Village Hall?

That is better, sure. In conjunction with DH's idea, that would work great, I think.

On the notion of upgraded buildings, I think they should be easier to build if you upgrade it from an earlier building in the chain, than to build it "from scratch". The village hall-chain is the only one with this reduction, and that is for only 15%, which I think is to little to make a real difference.

@AIAndy:

What if your citizens would be able to build buildings by themselves based on an accumulated property in the city. Lets call them City Development Points.

Nice idea! I would like to see it developed for sure! That might even be the only way to build some unique buildings? The CDP growth might be based on the population of the city, and influenced by buildings, tech, civics, random events...

@philipschall:

The CDP system would have some pitfalls, such as the town making buildings that would be obsolete rather quickly, or towns making buildings that put a dent in your gold when you are already strapped for coin.

The solution to this problem is to simply restrict the number of buildings the population can build "for free" in this way to only include buildings that every city has a real need for, like forges, court houses, production buildings (that creates gold, commerce, culture, hammers, food, health...), basically any beneficial buildings that does not have any strings attached, like extra gold costs. the obsoleteness thing can be regulated by having a "can build this building only until age x" tag on the buildings that goes obsolete (so if a building goes obsolete during the classical age it can only be built in this way until the end of the ancient age, for example). That won't solve the whole obsoleteness "issue", but it will reduce it quite a lot.