"Freedom of Expression: let’s see if they mean what they say"

Xenocrates said:
I take your point Cheetah.

The Iranians are trying to highlight Western hypocrisy. But it's a very obvious attempt and won't work. In other words we will purposely brush off the insults just to prove that they are better than Muslims are, or even use it as evidence against them in future....

This is not a fire you can fight with fire.

However, the primacy of free speech in the West argument is nonsense. You can't even print the KFC recipe here for God's sake. We blame them for over-reacting, and obviously they did, but we can't publish a combination of herbs and spices and don't even think twice about it, but we scream 'free speech' to defend crass cartoons that were also not funny or newsworthy. And which may ultimately lead to another holocaust.

Protecting the $ is taken for granted here, and they want God to be afforded the same status. Shocking isn't it?

We are hypocrits, but more fire is NOT what's needed.
Click to expand...
Good Point, one I hadn't previously considered :)
 
1 ~ Should Western newspapers print these cartoons?
Should they? - no. Should they be forbidden? - no. Are they free to publish them? - Yes

2 ~ A grievance highlighted by the organisers (although only alluded to) is, for example, Austria's "Holocaust Denial" laws. Should western countries have such laws in place or not?
I used to agree with having such laws. I still do, but to a lesser level of confidence.

3 ~ Is the West, in general, unduly precious about the Holocaust?
I am starting to think that we are.

4 ~ Are Muslims in the Middle East, in general, unduly precious about the Prophet Muhammad?
Certainly

5 ~ Do you see there being any difference between these and "those Muhammad cartoons"? If so, what?
Not really. The Mohammed cartoons were created on request of Jylland's Posten to ignite a discussion. The exact same reason these Holocaust cartoons exist.

6 ~ When does responsible exercising of freedom of speech become irresponsible, if at all?
That's too difficult to answer. I don't think a perfect rule of "that is ok and that is not" would be possible.

Anyway - I am eager to see the Holocaust cartoons for myself. Does anyone have a link to a site where they are all located ?
I did look at http://www.irancartoon.com but I can't read it and the English language section is off-line.
 
All this means is that the organisers are as ignorant as the protestors.

“It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust. The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let’s see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons.”

It's driven by the desire to paint an Us and Them picture between Islam and 'the West', and as such is pathetic.

Quite frankly I'm suprised you've posted this as though there's an equal and opposite point of view to be seen.


The decision to print anything is the choice of the publishing company, and therefore the subject does not represent the State of public opinion.
 
*cough*open source*cough*

Protecting the $ is taken for granted here, and they want God to be afforded the same status. Shocking isn't it?
Click to expand...
Nah.

I wish to take none of these for granted. I'd publish a cartoon satirizing Christianity quite freely, because the chance of receiving damaging reprisals is virtually nil. If I were to publish one mocking Muhammed, I'd consider requesting police protection or anonymous publishing, but I'd probably publish it. If I had a secret recipe for, say, KFC's secret spice or Coca Cola, there wouldn't be any police protection and I'd have to publish it very, very secretly.
Oh, and those things aren't patented. Patents have to be made public. ;)

"Protecting the $" was an incentive that unhappily became a goal in itself. Patents were meant to encourage innovation. The goal, iirc, was "protecting the consumer" by artificially creating a situation where companies would benefit from creating new products and selling them openly.

Back on topic.
Ram said:
Questions for discussion:

1 ~ Should Western newspapers print these cartoons?

2 ~ A grievance highlighted by the organisers (although only alluded to) is, for example, Austria's "Holocaust Denial" laws. Should western countries have such laws in place or not?

3 ~ Is the West, in general, unduly precious about the Holocaust?

4 ~ Are Muslims in the Middle East, in general, unduly precious about the Prophet Muhammad?

5 ~ Do you see there being any difference between these and "those Muhammad cartoons"? If so, what?

6 ~ When does responsible exercising of freedom of speech become irresponsible, if at all?
Click to expand...
1. "Should" in the sense of "showing off our willingness to print controversial material", yes, in the sense of "being fit for print", I doubt it.

2. They should, as extensions of laws concerning perjury, slander/libel, and giving false evidence.

3. Unduly, no, but justifiedly more precious about it than other events in general.

4. It's undue when they demand that we conform to their standards when in our own community.

5. Somewhat. Partly because the Muhammed Cartoons skewered a sacred cow, but the Holocaust Cartoons are drifting into outright attacks on Israel.
Spoiler vaguely related ramble :
The ban on graven images, which the Christians removed and Muhammed reinstated, was iirc intended to prevent idol worship and putting things on metaphorical pedestals. Ironically, Muhammed was put on a pedestal instead, (and repeatedly depicted,) so bringing him down was something the Muslims apparently should have done by themselves long ago. On the other hand, the Jews draw plenty of their own Holocaust cartoons, and don't need anybody to mock them. Torleif Elgvin, who studies the Dead Sea Scrolls, lent me an encyclopedia of Jewish humor once - it's some of the most self-deprecating and at the same time happiest material I've ever read. If one judged from the encyclopedia, the Jews would seem to be physically incapable of having sacred cows.
To sum up: The Muslims needed deflating and didn't take it well.


6. It becomes irresponsible when you lie outright, call for unjustified violent actions (as in: murder as opposed to death penalty), or similar things.
 
Thanks for the very sensible answers folks and for keeping things civil. Plenty of excellent points raised here so far.

I more or less take the same view as Xeno, Prince and Rik have expressed but do not have time to get stuck into the subtleties right now.
Rik Meleet said:
Anyway - I am eager to see the Holocaust cartoons for myself. Does anyone have a link to a site where they are all located ?
I did look at http://www.irancartoon.com but I can't read it and the English language section is off-line.
Click to expand...
I went looking for them also, but, I couldn't find them online anywhere, yet.

However, I did find plenty of excellent cartoons on that same site you've linked to. There's another exhibition worth looking at: "International Cartoon Festival Theme: Military Occupation". I've posted the highlights in the current Political Cartoons thread (starting from posts #952 on).
 
some links for viewing cartoons
they are persian but never mind only see and enjoy
many sites that contain these cartoons often hacked by [Zionist deleted] Hackers
yesterday english partion of site is out and now all of it
links:

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/02/post_91.php from Yousef Tamiz, turkey

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/08/post_431.php from Maziar Bizhani, Iran

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/08/post_442.php from Raed Khalil, Syria

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/08/post_441.php from Morhef Yousef, Syria

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/08/post_433.php from Ghasem Lotfi, Iran

http://irancartoon.ir/news/archives/2006/08/post_432.php from Martin Skozi, Poland

mayeb when you read this links would be hacked

edit: I must appologize any body who suffer from ... hackers
I must say that some hackers only not any more because I don't know who hacked them.
 
lol. let's do it. I'll meet you outside the Iranian Embassy in 2 hours.

Edit, 1,2,4, ok. 3&6 I don't get. 5 is just stupid.

Only #4 appears to make any vague reference to the holocaust.
 
nivi said:
What was the muslims response to the muhamad cartoon? Rage. Riots, a total mess.

What was the jewish response to the holcuast cartoons? Laughing at them and making our own contest of halcuast cartoons, yep, thats right.

Case closed.
Click to expand...

many muslims also over the world laugh at that cartoons like Jews you say
but many jews laugh at this cartoons but some of try to hack any site that shows these cartoons like some of muslims that did things you said

I believe that both of we must respect others believes and both of cartoons are unfair
i saw both cartoons and find in them only hate not live or fun
non of them is fummy but hatefull
 
JoeM said:
Watch in awe as milllions in "the West" take to the streets bearing banners declaring "Not Interested!", "Don't Care!", and "Who Printed What Where?!".
Click to expand...
Replying to this.
Btw is Joke.
 
I wish to note an objection to the use of the term "Zionist Hackers".

PersianBoy's links worked fine for me. Fairly crude, but it might be the beginning of a tradition.
 
PersianBoy said:
many muslims also over the world laugh at that cartoons like Jews you say
but many jews laugh at this cartoons but some of try to hack any site that shows these cartoons like some of muslims that did things you said

I believe that both of we must respect others believes and both of cartoons are unfair
i saw both cartoons and find in them only hate not live or fun
non of them is fummy but hatefull
Click to expand...


You have to agree though that hacking sites and rioting is quite diffrent, I mean hacking between Israeli and Arabs/Iranian happens all the time, rioting is quite more severe.

I can agree with that, all of those cartoons are disrespectfull.
 
ram said:
1 ~ Should Western newspapers print these cartoons?

2 ~ A grievance highlighted by the organisers (although only alluded to) is, for example, Austria's "Holocaust Denial" laws. Should western countries have such laws in place or not?

3 ~ Is the West, in general, unduly precious about the Holocaust?

4 ~ Are Muslims in the Middle East, in general, unduly precious about the Prophet Muhammad?

5 ~ Do you see there being any difference between these and "those Muhammad cartoons"? If so, what?

6 ~ When does responsible exercising of freedom of speech become irresponsible, if at all?
Click to expand...

1- indeed we should have those printed. in an open society there shouldnt be any hidden agendas

2- YES. it is very important to remember history, lest it repeat.
that goes towards all peoples and event.

3- no. its just right. it, as well as the armenian holocaust and any other such events, should be kept on a low flame.
dont over indulge in it, but neither should you forget that stuff can happen.

4- yes. all other religions can have a laugh at thier religion.
they should grow a sense of humour.

5- not really. both kinds were political.
one kind was satirical the other inflamatory....
so the difference was in the attitude towards it.
the west did not intend to inflame the entire muslim world, while, as i see it, Iran sure did.

6- when people get hurt? physically?
 
850512.rais.jpg
Now that's funny.:lol:

Btw: I thought the holocaust thing was supposed to be about attacking Western freedom of speech. These are all mocking Jews.
 
nivi said:
You have to agree though that hacking sites and rioting is quite diffrent, I mean hacking between Israeli and Arabs/Iranian happens all the time, rioting is quite more severe.

I can agree with that, all of those cartoons are disrespectfull.
Click to expand...
OK it's differ only in a E
Muslims = riot
Jews = E-riot
 
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