Frustrated with immortal

[jorissimo]

Shame you didn't complete the cuirs rush. It's an interesting map that did force you to rush an AI early on. The AI have performed quite well here. HRE quietly getting on with things.

Giving the AI a lot of free techs can just catapult them to getting much stronger.

Never really use espionage. I should probably be targeting a single AI on my games. Can be nice to steal techs on higher levels. Would I aim for a great spy as a strategy. No. If you build Great Wall it's harder to ignore.

I do look at the city details screen in my games. To make sure no cities are running city governor or have added random specialists. Pretty much most captured cities will be using city governor. City Details is the second drop down option on the city overview screen that lists all your cities.

Yeah you really gotta give Charly some credit here. Remember that my first Cuir attempt was routed by him. It instilled in me a sense of awe for his production, technological and cultural prowess for the rest of the game. Also recall that a lot when wrong with the second Cuir attempt. I was initially plotting on Monty, and attacked the turn before an AP vote. Then, after 10 turns, he vassals to freaking Capac. Meaning I had to move my whole stack all the way up to SB. In hindsight, he should have been my first target. His land was the best, and that capital is just insane. It's my number 1 city in almost every respect. Super soft target and really easy to assimilate. So I could have conquered him in the 1200s. That would have been a completely different game. But with all of the contingencies, by the time I capped Capac, cuits weren't going to cut it against Ragnar and Charly. So that's that. But the game is still perfectly winnable.

I think one of the most striking differences between emperor and immortal to me is that on the latter, the game is never really over. AI that you let sit around become insane fortresses. I remember this one game with Darius, one of my better immortal wins so far, the last AI, Gilga, wiped out a stack of 30-40 tanks on turn 1 of the war with antitank guns. It didn't matter, because I ended up winning Diplo shortly after, but it's not like emperor (or immortal quechua rush) where at some point you're basically playing on sandbox mode. Immortal is never sandbox, you can actually undo your own advantage pretty easily.

Btw, I didn't know about that city details screen, will check it out!

 

[sampsa]

Immortal is never sandbox, you can actually undo your own advantage pretty easily.

But please understand that for people who are able to beat deity, immortal is very easy, close to a joke once you get to the ADs safely. It's hard for you now because you are making a lot of mistakes. I understand that many of your mistakes come from trying to listen to everyone and therefore your strategy has been a total mess. Yes, you are able to beat immortal even without a coherent strategy.

 

[pigswill]

I'm interested to see how helpful Internet will be in this game given that Charly is the only AI leading you in tech. On lower difficulties Internet is pretty useless as by the time it becomes available you usually have a commanding tech lead.

 

[a pen-dragon]

It will help a bit, especially since HC can be commanded to do some research. It does get a few Techs and it is not out of the way for a space win. Computers opens up Superconductors and Fiber Optics. Usually my tech path after computers is Superconductors - Fusion - Genetics (if one has medicine) and then backfill. Even in this game it is reasonable to assume that the internet will get rocketry and satellites by then. HC is doing some good research and should be able to tech up to satellites before we finish genetics. He should be going for Rocketry ASAP, since the apollo project has to be built before any parts can be produced. Really as long as the internet gets rocketry as soon as it is completed this works fine. Teching up to genetics is 5 rather expensive techs, leaving time for the AI to do some backfilling for you. In this game I expect the internet will get the following relevant techs: artillery, rocketry, biology, probably medicine, satellites. That really helps, especially since it allows you to let your rival do some science for you.

Also note that the internet really is a nice-to-have, it is not essential. There is just no reason not to try for it. Tech trading with more backwards civs can get you the same techs, but getting the internet yourself also prevents your rival from getting it, which is when you really have to pay attention to what tech you trade.

 

[jorissimo]

But please understand that for people who are able to beat deity, immortal is very easy, close to a joke once you get to the ADs safely. It's hard for you now because you are making a lot of mistakes. I understand that many of your mistakes come from trying to listen to everyone and therefore your strategy has been a total mess. Yes, you are able to beat immortal even without a coherent strategy.

That's another way of looking at it. What I like about this game though is that it ran the full gamut of situations and eras. We saw early rush, development, cuir stomp, space, with specific advice relevant to each era as well as the trade-offs that exist and the different philosophies. It has not been efficient by a long shot, but it's been highly pedagogical and will serve as a reference for me and hopefully for other players too.

 

[jorissimo]

1820 AD

Spoiler :

This has now become a very tight race. Charly's tech pace is catching up. I built the internet and got a bunch of techs for it, but in the meantime Charly seems to have gotten Sattelites and Biology. His Apollo is done and he is building spaceship parts. My Apollo is still 7 turns away (although I could use my GE for it, but maybe it's better to keep him for the GA). I'm building it in that city, because Cahokia was still working on the internet, and waiting for it to finish would not have been faster. Spaceship cities are building Labs and Observatories (hadn't realized these were a prereq). It's a nerve-racking final stretch.

 

[a pen-dragon]

This has now become a very tight race.

Actually, it is not. It only appears to be since Charly is already building parts, but the only thing that really matters is when you build the last part. This is also the reason why the late apollo programm is no trouble at all. Once you get those obs+labs you will be able to sustain about 2500 /turn and will pick up the techs with the expensive parts (engines, stasis chamber, docking bay) earlyish, so your ship will be going soon. As for GP, you will get an additional engineer from fusion, so the current GE can be used. Speeding up the apollo programm does not really help, so I think the best use is to keep the GE to possibly settle in a struggling city, since that could shave away a turn. If you had less cities this would change, since there is less capacity to build parts in parallel.

The GA should be timed in such a fashion that the last part finishes with the golden age. It provides a much larger bonus to production than research, so this speeds up the win more. It will also speed up research for the last tech (ecology). The reason I emphasized ecology as last tech is that it is the natural choice. The unlocked part is cheap, has an accelerating resource and only one is required.

For optimal play you should still be telling HC what to research, Biology and Medicine will be required, maybe he can even get satellites in time if you give him the prereqs. Furthermore you should start workshoping your production cities around now, starting with the IW city.

You really should not be trading aluminum to anyone that does not have it, since it is required for some units and most importantly speeds up most of the spaceship. If you want more gold from Charly, renegociate the sheep deal. AI can give around 14-25 gpt per resource as a fair price, depending on their size.

Lastly as a case study for late game micro, consider your screenshot of Machu. Working the farm makes the city grow very slowly. The next best available tile is a grassland workshop that you could be working right now, without any negative impact before the game ends, since that will not take much time.

 

[jorissimo]

Actually, it is not. It only appears to be since Charly is already building parts, but the only thing that really matters is when you build the last part. This is also the reason why the late apollo programm is no trouble at all. Once you get those obs+labs you will be able to sustain about 2500 /turn and will pick up the techs with the expensive parts (engines, stasis chamber, docking bay) earlyish, so your ship will be going soon. As for GP, you will get an additional engineer from fusion, so the current GE can be used. Speeding up the apollo programm does not really help, so I think the best use is to keep the GE to possibly settle in a struggling city, since that could shave away a turn. If you had less cities this would change, since there is less capacity to build parts in parallel.

The GA should be timed in such a fashion that the last part finishes with the golden age. It provides a much larger bonus to production than research, so this speeds up the win more. It will also speed up research for the last tech (ecology). The reason I emphasized ecology as last tech is that it is the natural choice. The unlocked part is cheap, has an accelerating resource and only one is required.

For optimal play you should still be telling HC what to research, Biology and Medicine will be required, maybe he can even get satellites in time if you give him the prereqs. Furthermore you should start workshoping your production cities around now, starting with the IW city.

You really should not be trading aluminum to anyone that does not have it, since it is required for some units and most importantly speeds up most of the spaceship. If you want more gold from Charly, renegociate the sheep deal. AI can give around 14-25 gpt per resource as a fair price, depending on their size.

Lastly as a case study for late game micro, consider your screenshot of Machu. Working the farm makes the city grow very slowly. The next best available tile is a grassland workshop that you could be working right now, without any negative impact before the game ends, since that will not take much time.

That's reassuring, thanks. Also needed that tech advice. Yeah, I had some doubts about the aluminum deal, good to get a second opinion on that. Somehow my land was blessed with no fewer than 7 aluminum resources, whereas Charly has 0. That Machu situation is a big no no. Not sure how that happened. Maybe I was trying to let it grow onto its last workshop and then forgot to switch to it when it grew.

 

[jorissimo]

1846

Spoiler :

Reporting back because all of my spaceship parts have been destroyed by enemy infiltrators. What's the solution for this? Upping the espionage slider? There are still some techs I need to finish.

 

[a pen-dragon]

I think that the best playing way to avoid this is to identify the AI(s) responsible (the espionage screen shows the change in relative to last turn) and do some counterespionage missions on them, increasing their costs. Tehcnically spending EPs on them would increase their costs, but that is not efficient and competes with research.

Then there is the option to build the parts until they are one turn from completion and then 'hide' them in the queue behind something else, preferably wealth or research and only finish them as late as possible in order to minimize the opportunities for the AI.

Another thing you could do is just rebuild them, since the AI typically only have a few spies in your land. Try to keep the expensive parts safe.

Unrelatedly,while Watermills are better than Workshops earlier in the game, when commerce is important they are worse now when only production matters.

Anti-spy buildings (security bureau) only help when they are in all cities on the same land mass as the AI and are expensive, so I generally think they are not worth it.

Spies are supposed to help as counter-spies, but I do not really know any of the intricacies of the espionage system.

Btw, in the end missing a few thrusters or an engine is not much of a problem, it only slows the ship down a little.

 

[jorissimo]

And.... it's a wrap! 1904 AD space:

Spoiler :

As you can see from the final screenshot, the race with Charly ended up being quite close. He managed to sabotage some more stuff, but I counteracted him with counterespionage missions. I left some of the important parts at 1 turn to completion and completed them at the same time, as @a pen-dragon suggested. At the end of the game, after launching my spaceship, I provoked a revolt in his cap every other turn just out of spite. That will teach him!

I will do a longer post with reflections later. For now, I would just like to say that my first shadow game might not have obtained an extraordinary score, but I learned a bewildering number of lessons, and I realized I should have done this much, much earlier. Fortunately, this thread will always be here for future reference. Most importantly, it is my first non-financial win on immortal! Thanks everyone who commented, and a special shout out to @Gumbolt , @a pen-dragon , @sampsa and @pigswill , for being the most active participants!

Edit: also a special thanks to @lymond for offering help with setting up BUFFY! And again to @Gumbolt because this game was his idea and he provided the map. Not sure I would have thought of doing a shadow game otherwise.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Well done!

As you can see from the final screenshot, the race with Charly ended up being quite close.

One last comment on estimating space races. Charly did not yet have fusion, he is one turn away, add around 4 turns to build both engines and 10 turns for the ship to arrive, and you have a 15 turn advantage. IMO that is a solid lead.

 

[jorissimo]

Well done!


One last comment on estimating space races. Charly did not yet have fusion, he is one turn away, add around 4 turns to build both engines and 10 turns for the ship to arrive, and you have a 15 turn advantage. IMO that is a solid lead.

Thanks!

Your calculation makes sense. I think I was a bit too nervous about the space race, because I had only done it on Emperor and specifically on the broken Terra mapscript (at that level at least), while being miles ahead of everyone else. But on Immortal it's normal to win without a tech lead. And the AI actually kind of half-heartedly try to stop you.

 

[Gumbolt]

Congrats. Hope the map was both challenging and interesting.

Spoiler Thoughts :

I liked fact Monty was nearby as this throwed a little complication into the eqution.

Limited room for expansion forced you into a strategy to secure land. Koreans are never an easy pushover due to UU and protective..

HRE/Vikings and Incas gave the map some challenges tech wise due to financial and protective. Bit of a lottery how the mix of AI's and wars would go here.

Overall you dealt with most issues well. Golden age I am not sure you produced enough great scientists. I don't think you bulbled liberalism before you got machinery. Limited food map but 2-3 GS can give you a huge boost science wise.

 

[jorissimo]

Congrats. Hope the map was both challenging and interesting.

Spoiler Thoughts :

I liked fact Monty was nearby as this throwed a little complication into the eqution.

Limited room for expansion forced you into a stratgegy to secure land. Koreans are never an easy pushover due to UU and protective..

HRE/Vikings and Incas gave the map some challenges tech wise due to financial and protective. Bit of a lottery how the mix of AI's and wars would go here.

Overall you dealt with most issues well. Golden age I am not sure you produced enough great scientists. I don't think you bulbled liberalism before you got machinery. Limited food map but 2-3 GS can give you a huge boost science wise.

Thanks, it certainly was!

One of the things I realized is that GP are a major weakness in my game. I don't really understand the concept of GPP overflow and calculating the number of GP I can get in a golden age. This was talked about in the Sitting Bull shadow game, but I feel like I could use a comprehensive guide on this. Searched in strategy articles but couldn't find any.

 

[sampsa]

Well, it's not rocket science.

1. choose cities which will produce the , then grow these cities (usually to -cap), consider even filling the -bar full before launching the GA. What cities to choose? Ones with most in general
2. launch the GA, switch to caste+paci (and religion, otherwise paci does nothing)
3. run specialists. Try to plan how many you will get. The 1st should come from either the weakest or the strongest city. If from the strongest first it will produce (at least) two
4. edit: choose which specialists to run. Usually for lib I'd get two GS (1*edu 1*lib), rest GM, but it's not the only way
5. don't needlessly starve down cities (in size), but do it if you need to (in which case starve the -bar to zero or close to it, then run only specialists, is moot if you shrink anyway

GPP overflow is the same as or overflow. Not important really.

You can do the same without a golden age even (usually with SPI leaders).

 

[jorissimo]

1. run specialists. Try to plan how many you will get. The 1st should come from either the weakest or the strongest city. If from the strongest first it will produce (at least) two

GPP overflow is the same as or overflow. Not important really.

It's primarily this weaker to stronger/smaller to bigger logic that I have trouble wrapping my head around. Is that not related to how gpp overflow is distributed among cities?

 

[sampsa]

Well, weaker cities first because the ones that get the later ones out do more work in the end. A weaker city (smaller or with less food) won't overtake a stronger one later. Just try it and you will see.

What exactly do you mean by gpp overflow? Probably something completely different than I would.

 

[jorissimo]

Well, weaker cities first because the ones that get the later ones out do more work in the end. A weaker city (smaller or with less food) won't overtake a stronger one later. Just try it and you will see.

What exactly do you mean by gpp overflow? Probably something completely different than I would.

Ah, now I get it, the weaker ones have less pop to spare and will run out of food for specialists sooner. I think I might have misinterpreted/overthought the whole overflow thing and thought it was passed on from one city to another. But it's clear now.

 

[Gumbolt]

First GP costs 100 GPP
Second 200 GPP
3rd 300 GPP
Till you get to 11 at which point it increases at 200.

Each city can build up GPP till it reaches the next target. So if your capital produces your first GP (100 GPP) and gets a Great Scientist. The next city needs to reach 200. The city that produces the GP resets to 0 GPP. The other cities keep accumulating points till they produce a GP.

Getting the free Great Artist, Great Merchant or Great Spy from researching a tech is not linked to the above.