Off the top of my head, I think size 3 slow build is best.
Do we need both AH and Pottery right now?
No Oracle for me.
Do we need both AH and Pottery right now?
No Oracle for me.
Me, too.
Full Monty
- Thread starter shyuhe
- Start date
I was aware that the monties will like eachother but this doesn't exactly help with bribing (we couldn't betray our close friends) so we'll have to hope for some religious mayhem.
Size 3 slow build is maybe better than size 2 slowbuild, but I'd say size 2 whip is even better...?
"Oracle on deity is doable" well maybe, but the overall loss (beakers + hammers) is so great that it's definitely not worth it. We tried to oracle CS in ICS on deity (think you were on board shy) with asoka... was quite a stretch there IIRC... with our situation I don't see us getting any tech that is worth the effort.
Size 3 slow build is maybe better than size 2 slowbuild, but I'd say size 2 whip is even better...?
"Oracle on deity is doable" well maybe, but the overall loss (beakers + hammers) is so great that it's definitely not worth it. We tried to oracle CS in ICS on deity (think you were on board shy) with asoka... was quite a stretch there IIRC... with our situation I don't see us getting any tech that is worth the effort.
Better meaning marginally faster to settler? Maybe, but I prefer having 2 extra pop and 1 extra happy afterwards. How much faster would it even be?
There's bound to be some religious hatred, that's for sure.
We're 1 turn away from 3rd pop but 5 turns away from next improvement. Fastest way is of course to chop a forest then whip the 'useless' citizen.
I guess we can either add 1H/turn by working a forest or go for 2F1C tile to add some research if we chop/whip.
Slower option is to add a mine and then chop.
Not sure which is best, but I suspect slower option is more flexible since we'll probably lend rice to second city.
We're 1 turn away from 3rd pop but 5 turns away from next improvement. Fastest way is of course to chop a forest then whip the 'useless' citizen.
I guess we can either add 1H/turn by working a forest or go for 2F1C tile to add some research if we chop/whip.
Slower option is to add a mine and then chop.
Not sure which is best, but I suspect slower option is more flexible since we'll probably lend rice to second city.
You're right bbp, I meant faster, not better... I've been running a few games on deity trying to seal off as much land as I could... So I was mostly going for "fast". Since we're neither going to block nor seem to be in much of a rush I tend to think size 3 + whip is best since it'll be a while until we get more than 4F/H in uruk.
@kos: Religious hatred yes, but with the peaceweight I'm not sure this will matter this much to monty...
I think whipping the first settler in uruk then grow on vultures and occasionally build settlers (no whipping) is best while having copper build (whip) workers.
@kos: Religious hatred yes, but with the peaceweight I'm not sure this will matter this much to monty...
I think whipping the first settler in uruk then grow on vultures and occasionally build settlers (no whipping) is best while having copper build (whip) workers.
shyuhe
Deity
I'd much prefer the slower option here. I don't think 2-3 turns will make much of a difference against the barb invasion, and having a size 3 capital will make later empire development faster. Mysty - are you going to finish through fishing before handing off? I don't think there's too much that we need to discuss in terms of micro (since this isn't an SGOTM).
I suggest:
scout heads SW to coast then SE to see if there's anything near that coast. There probably is given the barb city location. Worker farms rice and heads to the riverside grass forest to chop. Switch to settler at size 3 and finish researching fishing.
I suggest:
scout heads SW to coast then SE to see if there's anything near that coast. There probably is given the barb city location. Worker farms rice and heads to the riverside grass forest to chop. Switch to settler at size 3 and finish researching fishing.
On chop vs grass mine first.
At size 3 we have 10h+f/t going on a settler so that's 10 turns to make the settler starting on next turn.
Chopping adds 20 hammers after 4 turns so 60/100 with 4 turns to go on the settler... i.e. 8 turns settler. The mine completes 5 turns later (1 turn after settler is produced), making the worker 1t late to start mining bronze right away.
Mine takes 5 turns (moving 1 turn) which adds +1f/t and +1C, at that point we're at 50/100 on settler. Add in 4 turns for the chop we get 114/100 in 9 turns.
Chopping before mine:
We lose 4 hammers and 4 commerce in Uruk to gain ~1 commerce (actually 3C since 1t earlier founding+city tile minus upkeep I'm assuming we'll get -2gpt, commerce evens out at -3) but gain 1H in the new city (food is same overall as rice goes to one of either cities).
I guess chop first comes out ahead when it's time to make the workboat, by borrowing the rice, we grow in 6 turns and gain 1 turn of workboat via 1t earlier city (whip the workboat).
Arguably, 3F+1C > 4H+3C.
At size 3 we have 10h+f/t going on a settler so that's 10 turns to make the settler starting on next turn.
Chopping adds 20 hammers after 4 turns so 60/100 with 4 turns to go on the settler... i.e. 8 turns settler. The mine completes 5 turns later (1 turn after settler is produced), making the worker 1t late to start mining bronze right away.
Mine takes 5 turns (moving 1 turn) which adds +1f/t and +1C, at that point we're at 50/100 on settler. Add in 4 turns for the chop we get 114/100 in 9 turns.
Chopping before mine:
We lose 4 hammers and 4 commerce in Uruk to gain ~1 commerce (actually 3C since 1t earlier founding+city tile minus upkeep I'm assuming we'll get -2gpt, commerce evens out at -3) but gain 1H in the new city (food is same overall as rice goes to one of either cities).
I guess chop first comes out ahead when it's time to make the workboat, by borrowing the rice, we grow in 6 turns and gain 1 turn of workboat via 1t earlier city (whip the workboat).
Arguably, 3F+1C > 4H+3C.
Sounds ok. We could potentially also re-road copper if we skip the chop, though.
Do you disagree with settling copper first? Otherwise, we might as well play through this first stage before any bigger planning. Need to locate Monty at least.
I thought we'd skip Pottery, too, but I suppose it's still up for debate.
I thought we'd skip Pottery, too, but I suppose it's still up for debate.
i do not disagree with copper, but after fishing we will fade into discussion of what to tech again...
on other note i might be unavailable for some days. sorry to miss fine discussion but looks like my holiday have unexpectedly ended...
on other note i might be unavailable for some days. sorry to miss fine discussion but looks like my holiday have unexpectedly ended...
So I was hoping to find something that was not covered in jungle... All I got was this:
I tried moving east but kept running into barbs and didn't want to take risks. Had to defend against a warrior in a forest once.
Positive thing is we get irrigated rice for Gold city. And we'll most likely have no competition for the east coast.
I used the newly-spread forest for the settler and started a mine. This way the worker will arrive at the copper tile 1t after the city is founded.
Main question now is tech. I see no point in pottery either, I'm leaning towards AH > Writing. Problem only is, at some point we might prefer building something that isn't costing us upkeep, and rax / cre libraries are built quite fast. Especially if we're teching IW, it'll be a loooong time until we can build anything else.
Other discussion point is city MM. Copper city will start on the WB while working on the rice and whip the WB as soon as it hits pop2 (we have yet to revolt to slavery though). Uruk will finish the warrior and start on another one? 2 Warriors for happy police in our 2 cities is ok, and hopefully we can start on vultures afterwards.
Have fun bbp
I tried moving east but kept running into barbs and didn't want to take risks. Had to defend against a warrior in a forest once.
Positive thing is we get irrigated rice for Gold city. And we'll most likely have no competition for the east coast.
I used the newly-spread forest for the settler and started a mine. This way the worker will arrive at the copper tile 1t after the city is founded.
Main question now is tech. I see no point in pottery either, I'm leaning towards AH > Writing. Problem only is, at some point we might prefer building something that isn't costing us upkeep, and rax / cre libraries are built quite fast. Especially if we're teching IW, it'll be a loooong time until we can build anything else.
Other discussion point is city MM. Copper city will start on the WB while working on the rice and whip the WB as soon as it hits pop2 (we have yet to revolt to slavery though). Uruk will finish the warrior and start on another one? 2 Warriors for happy police in our 2 cities is ok, and hopefully we can start on vultures afterwards.
Have fun bbp
So I was hoping to find something that was not covered in jungle... All I got was this:
I tried moving east but kept running into barbs and didn't want to take risks. Had to defend against a warrior in a forest once.
Positive thing is we get irrigated rice for Gold city. And we'll most likely have no competition for the east coast.
I used the newly-spread forest for the settler and started a mine. This way the worker will arrive at the copper tile 1t after the city is founded.
Main question now is tech. I see no point in pottery either, I'm leaning towards AH > Writing. Problem only is, at some point we might prefer building something that isn't costing us upkeep, and rax / cre libraries are built quite fast. Especially if we're teching IW, it'll be a loooong time until we can build anything else.
Other discussion point is city MM. Copper city will start on the WB while working on the rice and whip the WB as soon as it hits pop2 (we have yet to revolt to slavery though). Uruk will finish the warrior and start on another one? 2 Warriors for happy police in our 2 cities is ok, and hopefully we can start on vultures afterwards.
Have fun bbp
Uruk needs to make second worker. As we take away rice it will have only two improved tiles. probably need to finish that warrior in order to scout immediate east.
One thing i've learned is workers are base for any strategy. One guy for two cities ain't good at all.
As upkeep goes... Well, it is classical
finish library and hire scientists instead of working mines.for revolting i suggest turn settler is finished as that way we save a turn of anarchy in secoond city [since it is in form of running settler]. Whipping workboat is probably the only real option...
Din't we agree on gold/pigs/2xgems city? i do not see why that rice is changing much. at least untill we now what is possible to gain west of gold
For matter of discussion what about going IW before writing?
Copper city doesn't really need any improvement except the copper mine until much later, and at pop2 it can whip the worker itself. I don't see an immediate need for a second worker, however I tend to neglect them...
Well, usually I have to run scientists to avoid growing into unhappiness but that will hardly be a problem here
Agree on revolting after settler gets done.
We didn't agree on any city yet. Until we get a better picture and get a settler built we don't need to decide anything anyway.
Well, usually I have to run scientists to avoid growing into unhappiness but that will hardly be a problem here
Agree on revolting after settler gets done.
We didn't agree on any city yet. Until we get a better picture and get a settler built we don't need to decide anything anyway.
Copper city doesn't really need any improvement except the copper mine until much later, and at pop2 it can whip the worker itself. I don't see an immediate need for a second worker, however I tend to neglect them...
Well, usually I have to run scientists to avoid growing into unhappiness but that will hardly be a problem here
Agree on revolting after settler gets done.
We didn't agree on any city yet. Until we get a better picture and get a settler built we don't need to decide anything anyway.
I tend to road towards mine cities which is hard before you have idea where they will be.
You do whip away tiles like copper mine? this usually not very profitable in my opinion.
With fish there can be easily instant regrowth. Whip is at low pops a great food > hammer converter.
Roading towards new cities?! It ties up resources like guarding units and uses worker turns that could be used much more efficiently... and what is that worth exactly? Say, 5 road tiles, 10-15 worker turns (depends on terrain, could be even more) for 1C per turn? Not worth in my opinion. And the settler doesn't get there much faster.
Roading towards new cities?! It ties up resources like guarding units and uses worker turns that could be used much more efficiently... and what is that worth exactly? Say, 5 road tiles, 10-15 worker turns (depends on terrain, could be even more) for 1C per turn? Not worth in my opinion. And the settler doesn't get there much faster.
shyuhe
Deity
A fish tile + plains copper is stronger in the long run than whipping off a single fish tile, especially if you take the whip unhappiness into consideration. I agree with soirana that we will need a second worker sooner rather than later. If we are going to go settle in the jungle for #3 (which we should), we will need lots of workers to improve those cities.
If we skip pottery, we may have a long ways to reach IW. Then again it gives us writing earlier so I guess it evens out. I was thinking the 20% discount + 3-4 extra coins per turn would net us a faster IW than straight AH--writing--IW.
We also need to complete the second warrior so that we can scout the nearby area. I'm worried that we'll miss a decent fishing village as city #3 if we don't clear out the unknown tiles near Uruk.
@Soirana - no problem, I'll slide you to the end of the roster.
If we skip pottery, we may have a long ways to reach IW. Then again it gives us writing earlier so I guess it evens out. I was thinking the 20% discount + 3-4 extra coins per turn would net us a faster IW than straight AH--writing--IW.
We also need to complete the second warrior so that we can scout the nearby area. I'm worried that we'll miss a decent fishing village as city #3 if we don't clear out the unknown tiles near Uruk.
@Soirana - no problem, I'll slide you to the end of the roster.
shyuhe
Deity
Looked at the save. Let's cancel the grass mine and go pre-road the copper instead. Revolt to slavery as soon as the settler is done. We can then start a second worker while the copper mine completes, switching to a vulture as soon as copper is up. Then return to a worker (and copper builds a WB - I'd slow build off the copper). Once the worker is done, we can go barracks--vulture in Uruk to go farm some barbs. Copper will build a warrior after its WB for garrison duty, then a library (chop) followed by a settler for the gems spot. I think that should time well with IW coming in.
edit: sorry, more thoughts. IW is 26 turns from now, AH 13 and writing 18. Why don't we just go straight IW? Getting double gems up sooner is worth a lot more than an early library here, since we'll probably want to put the academy in the gems city anyways. Plus it times better with this build order:
Uruk: warrior (to go barb bust the gem spot) -- worker (partial) -- vulture -- worker -- barracks -- vulture -- vulture
Copper: WB -- warrior (partial) -- settler at size 2 (3 if we want to give it rice, which might work depending on how many mines are up for Uruk at that point).
Worker moves to copper and starts roading to time with the settling of Copper.
edit: sorry, more thoughts. IW is 26 turns from now, AH 13 and writing 18. Why don't we just go straight IW? Getting double gems up sooner is worth a lot more than an early library here, since we'll probably want to put the academy in the gems city anyways. Plus it times better with this build order:
Uruk: warrior (to go barb bust the gem spot) -- worker (partial) -- vulture -- worker -- barracks -- vulture -- vulture
Copper: WB -- warrior (partial) -- settler at size 2 (3 if we want to give it rice, which might work depending on how many mines are up for Uruk at that point).
Worker moves to copper and starts roading to time with the settling of Copper.
Agrees very hapilly. not sure about builds but i have not tried testing them.
If we get double gems IW> writing. Especially since academy in capitol is not so strong in long run.
