G-Major 116

[Denniz]

[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gif[/img]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

[size=+1](*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
[/size]​

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Cultural (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Speed: Epic
• Map Type: Shuffle
• Required: No Vassal States, No Tribal Villages
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: Any
• Opponents: Any
• Version: 1.74.004, 2.13.004 or 3.19.003
• Date: 28th May to 25th June 2013

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Lol.

So, which of the possible shuffle map draws is optimized for culture...and is there a way to simply determine which outcome happened via demographic land tile calcs t0?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I don't believe that the Shuffle Map should ever be required for a Gauntlet. This is just pushing re-rolling to the tenth fourth power. Some players will keep rolling until they get the desired map. It would be better to simply allow Any Map and save us some unnecessary re-rolling.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[lymond]

Although for Culture it may not be that big a deal. Military games could obviously be very different each roll.

Still I'm a bit surprised to find Shuffle in HOF. I did not even realize it was considered a standard map script. I guess Fractal is probably closest but Fractal is still somewhat more predictable - pangeae or continents with likely 1 human/ai in iso.

 

[shulec]

I agree that the Shuffle map is a dreadful decision. Regardless, I will play this one and document my game as suggested by TMIT. I will not totally spam maps, but I will not play archipelago! I also don't plan to use a stack BFC start, unless it falls in my lap!

My Emperor EQM has little room for improvement, but Sitting Bull is my lowest, so I will play with him. He isn't horrible, because his protective trait is game-breaking for culture, and I can live with philosophical.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I believe that Shuffle as restricted by the HoF module (BUFFY for BtS) will randomly select any map permitted by HoF rules with the exception of Shuffle (to avoid the possibility of infinite recursion). shulec has proven that shuffle picks randomly from Pangaea, Continents, Archipelago and Fractal map types. There is no need for BUFFY to restrict the map type to a HoF legal one, since all these map types are legal for HoF play. All map parameters are legal too, so BUFFY doesn't need to check this either which could have been problematic depending on how the shuffle map script is implemented.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I believe that Shuffle as restricted by the HoF module (BUFFY for BtS) will randomly select any map permitted by HoF rules with the exception of Shuffle (to avoid the possibility of infinite recursion).

Sun Tzu Wu

Are you sure? Normally shuffle only picks between a few scripts (Fractal, Archipelago, Continents, Pangaea or something, I forget which) and wouldn't possibly return something like Oasis, Rainforest, Boreal, or Global Highlands.

Would HoF staff bothered to alter shuffle as such? I doubt it, as there wouldn't be much incentive to do so (shuffle only returns HoF-legal maps anyway), but I suppose they could have if they wanted.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No doubt I'm wrong about my guess (belief/faith) about the nature of the Shuffle map under BUFFY. However, I'll hold onto my shaky belief until someone proves it to be otherwise. shulec has proven me wrong on these points in the next post. Note that BUFFY was not developed by the HoF staff.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

No doubt I'm wrong about my guess (belief/faith) about the nature of the Shuffle map under BUFFY. However, I'll hold onto my shaky belief until someone proves it to be otherwise. Note that BUFFY was not developed by the HoF staff.

Sun Tzu Wu

You are right! You are quite wrong!

Spoiler :

 

[shulec]

I played this one, but missed the no vassal states setting. So... I will not be playing it again.

Settings:
Shuffle Map (ended up being fractal)
Epic speed
Barbs on, no huts, Random events on, vassal states allowed.
Low sea level

Opponents: DeGualle, Mansa, Toku, Pacal, Lincoln, Gandhi, Fredrick, Willem, Wang Kon
I chose those opponents to serve one of three purposes: fast techer, pariah, or pushover.

Here was the start:


I really hate seafood starts, but Sitting Bull starts with fishing, so it is not bad and will make an awesome GA farm.

His UB is the totem pole. Not worth Stonehenge. He's also not charismatic.

UU is one strength less than Axes, doesn't require copper, just BW and give 100% against axes and spears (and all melee of course.)

Here is the save:

 

[shulec]

****If you are new to or struggling wtih cultural victories, this is the Bible (King jesusin version) of Cultural strategy.****

Opening Strategy
I made a major decision in this game to expand aggressively with Dog Soldiers. Early on I found my neighbors:

Spoiler :

I had Mansa Musa southwest, DeGualle west, tundra north, and ocean south and east. I would get destroyed by Mansa's skirmishers, so the French must go. I saw a lot of FPs which are good for Legendary cities (downside is .)

I had put De Gaulle in the game because he is usually universally disliked, a pariah. Most AI will focus their hate on him, and not me going culture. Tokugawa is in there for that too. Kaitzilla has shown that DeGualle is a great worker steal target because he will readily make peace. I stole 2 workers and made peace twice.

I opened the game by SIP. There were no improvable tiles, so I built 2 WBs first. Then worker (pop 3), settler, warrior, WB. I stole my first worker while building the warrior.

Research:

My BFC screamed Mining->BW.

Spoiler :

I followed with The Wheel->Mysticism. The wheel is needed for pottery, which is paramount for cottages in a cultural victory. Also, a granary is huge when whipping a five seafood capitol. With mysticism, I was targeting the Oracle, border pops, and CoL for Confucionism. You need 3-4 religions for a good culture victory.

I settled my first city on a patch of FPs with copper nearby.

Spoiler :

I chose a site 1 SE of the copper.

Spoiler :

I considered 2E of the copper to the the GrassCows in the BFC, but chose against it for two reasons:
1.) I wanted to deny DeGualle copper. This is a mistake. Dog Soldier vs Archer is 4.0 vs. 4.8. Dog Soldier vs. Axe is 4 vs 3.44. I often make this mistake. I did this in a BOTM (which I won with my best Xotm performance) and Axe rushed Pacal before he got BW to prevent him from spamming Holkens. Duh, Holken's take a beat down from axes.
2.) I wanted to have a better chance of getting the land with FPs south of this city site. By settling 2E of the copper, this opens things up for DeGaulle to grab some good land south of my 2nd city.

No matter, I Dog Soldier rushed Paris.

Spoiler :

I whipped the shite out of Cahokia 3 whips and Poverty point to get a stack of 6 Dog Soldiers that should handle 3 archers, maybe even four.

Spoiler :

I was blessed that DeGaulle was building a worker and luckily he finished it the turn I attacked, and it was still in the city, and it wasn't an archer! I was unlucky and lucky with DeGaulle's border pop. It popped after I attacked, so I had to cross only one tile before attacking. But unlucky in that I was facing 40% culture defense, not 20%.

Spoiler :

I got a rare low odds victory at about 8.3% against the first archer. I lost one Dog Soldier taking Paris. "Excusez-moi, parlez-vous Francais?" Not any more beyotch!

Spoiler :

So...what should I do with these five Dog Soldiers?

 

[shulec]

I send the Dog Soldiers out to see what kind of land and AIs I have around. At this point, I have Copper, Marble and Stone, the essential resources for speeding up cathedral production. Now I have to try to get some religions and wonders. I also need to find three legendary city sites.

Here is my map at T80, 2000 BC:

Spoiler :

The three cities I have could all make decent legendary city sites, but not great ones. I have a settler looking for a good spot to utilize those flood plains and gold. Gold is great early on, but late in a culture run, it is not great due to its lack of food. It will help finance my rex.

At this point, I start Polytheism to pave the path for the Oracle and CoL. I am thinking about the pyramids in my capitol. I don't like the GE poisoning my GA Farm, but the pyramids are awesome to fuel research from Artist specialists.

A barb city has popped up on the flood plains south of Poverty point. It is at the right location too, centered with corn, FPs, gold and some trees. It will block Mansa from that spot too. I will send my Dog Soldiers to take this city once I get the other Gold/FP site safely settled.

I have to dance around to avoid an archer and I don't want to lose a dog soldier at 73.6% odds. In the meantime, a barb city spawn and screws up my settling plans.

Spoiler :

I chose the rare "settle on gold". This is going to be a legendary city site, and I don't have a high food resource, so the second gold will probably weigh me down anyway. In retrospect, 1 north of the gold may have been a better location. I was fixated on getting both gold.

Spoiler :

I have obviously seen Pacal's land to the west. I am prioritizing taking the barb cities with the Dog Soldiers I have and since I whipped hard, am low on happiness resources, and don't want to chop out units that will take forever to cross the map to Pacal, I decide to limit my warring to DeGaulle and the barbs cities. I will have all the land I need for a culture victory.

 

[WastinTime]

I should have a submission for this one. I'm using an 'outside the box' strategy, so I don't know if I will be competitive.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Tried to play Vanilla on this one, but the Buffy mod said Shuffle isn't a valid mapscript for HOF play.

And can't turn off goody huts either.


Maybe I can play on Warlords hmm

 

[Kaitzilla]

Asoka attacked my warrior on a hill once I stole his worker even having only 2 archers in his capital.

Guess worker stealing is harder on Warlords. Baiting would be easier though hmm

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Asoka attacked my warrior on a hill once I stole his worker even having only 2 archers in his capital.

Guess worker stealing is harder on Warlords. Baiting would be easier though hmm

While not particularly relevant to this major as the setting isn't allowed, Tachy pointed out the vassal mechanics and apparently in warlords you could really abuse it by being first to a 40 war success advantage in a dogpile, grabbing easy vassals quickly. I wonder what abuses could be had with baiting?

Since this is emp and we can't use Inca, I can't picture an early rush winning easily due to the investment required to get cities that might be less intensive to simply settle on good land, although worker stealing could be useful if you can avoid eventual DoW.

Maybe something like pick Liz ---> steal a weak AI's workers repeatedly ---> cripple it to the point that DoW is impossible. Without vassals you can't get it to peacevassal to someone and be unable to DoW you, but you might be able to bring in a war ally on it to kill it or just get a defensive pact.

Stolen workers really speed a start so it's hard to picture a truly great time w/o someone abusing it.

 

[Kaitzilla]

!!! Shuffle me some good luck!

I only stole 3 or 4 workers, but I had my best culture game ever.


If you want to take a peek

Spoiler :

Smoked the old HOF record by about 1000 years

Didn't conquer any AI cities except for ones I built myself.
City flipping after Conquest and no city razing can be nice sometimes.

Didn't build any cathedrals either.
Simply the power of Scotland Yard running since 350BC and a horde of Great Spies

No Golden Age. Certainly no Pyramids. All a waste of time!








It got pretty tense midgame. I naively thought I could stay in Caste system and DeGaulle caught me with my pants down. I lost my Parthenon city for 1 turn and the great person I was getting close to finishing died.
Came down to my very last spear murdering a chariot that snuck past.






Result:

Spoiler :

End was even more tense with endless 84% odds.
Of those 64 spies, I crossed the Legendary line in the 3rd city with 1 -50% spy left. Every time one got caught, I cried
Failure would have added 2 turns to the finish date. Running out of would have added 10 to 30 turns depending on how bad I miscalculated.

As Mansa went from Friendly to Pleased to Cautious as the spy penalty stacked towards -15, I sweated the fist icon. I had no army that could scratch him if he DoWed.
Thankfully, the AP got a holy war going against Qin phew!

1st Great Spy was 100% odds. (Scotland Yard in Bureau capital) (Great Wall)
2nd Great Spy was 100% odds. (Infiltrate for +4500. So do the next 4) (Great Wall + spy specialist)
3rd Great Spy was 81% odds. (Great Wall + spy specialist + pacifism + National Epic + Parthenon in different city)
4th Great Spy was 60% odds. (Spy specialist + Artist specialist)
5th Great Spy was 50% odds. (Same)
6th Great person was finally an artist at 33% odds thank goodness. Didn't want the 66% Great Spy again.
7th Great person was Great Spy at 50% odds.
8th and final Great person was a Great Artist at 100% odds.

Add in the free Great Artist from Music, 2 more Great Artists grown naturally, then culture bomb each legendary city once, give it to Mansa, and do about 50 spread culture espionage missions on each city with max bonuses.

It is cost effective to do the first 20 culture spread missions at -10% wait bonus since the cost is so low.


There's a lot of variations on this.
Theoretically, an economy that can churn out much more espionage because it has more than 8 cities could crank out way more than 400 per turn for the last 100 turns. Wouldn't need so many great spies

Qin and De Gaulle were pros at having all the AI be willing to take bribes to start wars against them.
Picked Hammy, Wang Kon, and Joao because they matched the civics I wanted to run, didn't mind heathens too much, and gave big +civic bonuses.
And Mansa because he speeds up everyones' teching. Stopped teching after Music and just stole whatever Mansa finished.

Oracled Civil Service around 1500BC.
Traded Philosophy with Mansa later. Wasn't in a hurry to get it, and woulda stole it if someone else bulbed it.
I made sure all 4 friendly AI were given the techs to unlock that bulb.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Lol.

... and is there a way to simply determine which outcome happened via demographic land tile calcs t0?

Mapfinder seems able to pick Pangaeas out of the Pangaea/Continents/Archipelago/whatever Shuffle. Set it to find 2 Floodplains and 1 Gold.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Great espionage based cultural victory! I've been thinking of doing something similiar since SGOTM-16 ended and seeing Plastic Ducks use of espionage to quickly get two cities to legendary; never got around to it though; kudos to you for actually doing it plus proving that its better than the traditional methods. jesusin may have to add a new section to his cultural victory article!

Congratulations Kaitzilla!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

Aw, I'm playing the same espionage strategy. I thought I'd be first to present it Ever since I used the culture mission in the last BOTM, always Peace game. I was going to do one culture capital and two espionage cities, but I don't think I can beat 840 AD. Great game! I can't wait to compare strategies. I wonder if this will get banned or fixed. It's funny that no one was complaining about how it is an exploit when it was used in the SGoTM. It's clearly not how culture was intended to be done. I guess all the attention was focused on other tactics. I suspect jesusin will not change his way of playing culture, but I look forward to his opinion.