GalaxyNES- No Horizons

[Thlayli]

Eh. No offense, but I'm rather unenthusiastic about Vert's idea. My immersion, such as it is, is broken.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Maybe you should talk about it with Vertinari? He worked it out in a very reasonable manner that allayed my concerns. He's not some all-powerful entity, he's a ramshackle creation of a dying civilization, which while more advanced than our own, was annihilated by the Zan. His only remarkable tech is his rather advanced drive system, which he or I could expand upon. It's maybe as strong as a few fleets, but it's not a singlehanded destroyer of the larger Zan Empires in our region.

I still do agree that the ability to scoop things out of pocket dimensions is a bit much.

 

[Vertinari118]

Sorry if the pocket dimension thing was too far, I'll remove it if you want. But Thayli, perhaps I should explain the inspiration for Zem. It's quite simple really. At the moment you cannot win. Your defeat is almost absolutely inevitable and with it the end of the NES because you are the only power that can hope to withstand the Zan. You will not lose to Zan Shami but Zan Kena, because Zan Kena, once he has taken over Shami's empire for his heresies, will have twice his present resources. He will be undistracted as Shami is. He will have the ability to manufacture Zan superweapons, which, if used correctly, have the ability to be produced on an exponential curve by using each weapon to take the required resources to produce the next one. The Zan are unbalanced at present and the Wera, who are the other superpower, are not acting to balance it out. I could rewrite the story to my original idea, which I did not write at first because it could not be written from Zem's point of view and thus it would have to be written through the eyes of another player, which is normally expressly prohibited in StoryNESes. That would have you find a derelict Zem floating in space. After much scanning and anxiety on your part, it would activate and explain its purpose. An infinitely more satisfactory introduction. Or it can go and not break imersion and I will continue watching and wait until in ten or fifteen updates time Iggy is merely writing, the Zan crushed another rebellion today and continue to be lords and masters of the universe. I shall briefly write out a summary of the advantages and disadvantages strategically of the Zan and the Collectivity as I see it to be corrected if wrong.

Zan

Advantages

-Possess superweapons capable of exponential production if used correctly
-Complete economy supremacy as their economy is a war economy and has no disadvantages of that. I could easily see the Zan mining a world to its core if they thought it would further their domination of the galaxy and universe.
-Communications advantage. You are working to stem this but the Zan still possess the advantage in speed of communications. This is a great strategic and tactical advantage which the updates and stories so far have underestimated in my opinion.
-Technological advantage. Stating the obvious but the Zan, even the conservative ones such as Kena, possess technology that completely surpasses your own.
-Attrition advantage. The Zan can win this war by attrition alone, you cannot. Your only option is to force an end by killing every Shami and Kena. That feat is neigh-impossible for you with all your fleets and your economy intact, yet alone now.
-Miniturisation. Zan Shami is distracted at present but Zan Kena has a weapon and knows, presumably, how to construct it by now. If he has overcome his aversion to change enough to use it, I see no reason why he would not reverse-engineer it. Even if he does not, when Zan Shami falls he will probably recover the information. Zan Kena could devote his energies to miniturising the weapon. Imagine ten cruisers armed with mini-superweapons. The weapon has infinite destructive power. The only disadvantage would be decreased range and area-of-effect. A frigate could use them to cut super-battleships in half! If Zan Shami regains his focus he would also no doubt consider this. As the weapons have been allowed, their miniturisation logic would suggest must be allowable for decreased range and area of effect.

Disadvantages

-Zan arrogance. Most Zan are arrogant and uncreative. Unfortunately Zan Shami is not so if they survive the Zan do not even have this disadvantage.
-Zan Shami's distraction.

Collectivity Advantages

-Sheer spunk.
-Mortal emotion such as hope and devotion. Ties in with the above. Double-edged sword.
-Technological innovation, though not fast or deep enough to actually win.
-Mod favour. This is not a criticism of Iggy but Iggy is more likely to favour you as the complete underdog.

Disadvantages

-See Zan advantages.

Assuming this NES continues to remain plausible, you cannot win. You could only have won by launching every single ship you could manufacture, before the Zan War began, and delivering a single strike straight on Shami himself, preying you kill him. A good Zan without Zan tech is pointless. It will not reform Shami, who will see it as an affront to him, nor will it reform Kena, who sees it as an abomination. The Zan are not inherently powerful, only their technology makes them so. This post is not meant to be aggressive and I appologise now if the tone is wrong and it seems so. It is merely pointing out the elephant in the room. Please someone tell me this is all wrong? Or else that some other deadly surprise lies in wait for the Zan?

I did not mean to unbalance the game and should have contacted Iggy beforehand, but I gave into the impulse that I had seen reading the first few updates when I wrote Zem so I wasn't thinking completely straight.

Suddenly remembered I saved the manuscript of my conversation with Iggy as a reference material. I will post it in a second. It is quite long.

Spoiler :

<Vert>: Yep, here I am.
+++ Iggy has given voice to Vert
<Iggy>: Heyo.
<Iggy>: Okay.
<Iggy>: It's always tricky.
<Iggy>: We haven't added a new superbeing for a while.
<Iggy>: The last one ran into a bigger fish when it got hit by the Dirge of Eternity.
<Iggy>: And you made the smart choice of leaving it there.
<Iggy>: I am working this into the galaxynes cosmology
<Vert>: Silicon virus does not equal Cataclysm, though it was inspired by it. Zen fear their organic nature, an organic problem is fitting to destroy them.
<Iggy>: kk
<Iggy>: A virus is likely to kill only shamai
<Iggy>: since he's heretically embraced his organic side
<Iggy>: odds are he'll be dead within two turns, since Kena's about to open a can of cosmic annihilation on him
<Vert>: I know. It also has a couple of big guns, not superweapons though.
<Iggy>: Zem?
<Iggy>: Yes.
<Iggy>: So, ideas of what Zem is.
<Vert>: Yes
<Iggy>: Zem is from a vastly more advanced race, evidently.
<Iggy>: But a robotic machine.
<Iggy>: I pictured him being a galactic roomba.
<Iggy>: left around to clean out a few minor pests.
<Iggy>: so he's made of extremely advanced technology
<Iggy>: but for a fairly mundane purpose
<Vert>: Hang on a second.
<Iggy>: is that what you were saying?
<Vert>: Zem is very flippant about its purpose.
<Iggy>: I'm just making sure I understand you, or am not too far off the mark.
<Vert>: My idea was a race similar to the Wera or the Oceanic Family met their match against more advanced Zen than current ones in this part of the galaxy.
<Iggy>: The thing is, the Zan are all roughly the same level of development.
<Iggy>: Which is why Zem feels like an interdimensional traveler.
<Iggy>: The Zan, with the exception of Shamai, are technologically stagnant.
<Vert>: Why would Zan not progress?
<Iggy>: Zan in other dimensions might not be.
<Iggy>: Extremely conservative views towards change.
<Iggy>: They are gods.
<Iggy>: They are already perfect.
<Iggy>: Changing is denying godhood.
<Iggy>: A lot of their weapons have been taken as 'relics' from defeated enemies.
<Iggy>: So they have a few ways around things.
<Vert>: Progress theodicy would disagree about gods not changing. The idea of void travel was like hyperdrives or warp, very fast through one universe. The encounter with the Zan pocket universe was unexpected and bad.
<Iggy>: Well, they aren't literally gods, and their nature's been pretty well expounded upon by erez. I get your travel method though.
<Iggy>: Way more advanced than anything the locals have, for now.
<Vert>: A very powerful relic beating even the Dirge of Eternity could have been used. It does not truly matter. A more advanced relic is still more advanced.
<Vert>: It is designed to kill Zan as a sort of revenge present as they died they used their last planet to forge it.
<Iggy>: Zem is?
<Vert>: Yes.
<Iggy>: So Zem was made by an advanced race destroyed by the Zan?
<Vert>: In essence.
<Iggy>: k
<Iggy>: so you said void travel is through one universe
<Iggy>: I thought it touched on another?
<Vert>: It uses the 11 dimensions predicted by M-theory and now I'm starting to go into technobabble. It ran into the Zan pocket-universe/dimension floating around on the edge of the galactic arm like a giant speed bumb.
<Vert>: It was forced to stop or explode.
<Iggy>: k
<Vert>: The nature of its travel meant it could bump into it, sorry typing too fast for spelling to keep up.
<Iggy>: well, the pocket dimensions... hell, I don't know their physics
<Iggy>: kk
<Iggy>: I do lots of technobabble, it just has to be logically coherent technobabble
<Iggy>:
<Vert>: M--theory predicts that there are 11 dimensions. Four are extended, three space, one time. These dimensions constitute normal space. The rest are tightly coiled and not normally visible. For the exact shape see Calabri-Yau manifold.
<Vert>: The nature of void travel manipulates these dimensions and other quantum effects such as quantum entanglement to achieve motion. The old idea of moving space around you.
<Iggy>: I understand the 11 dimensional manifold thing very roughly.
<Iggy>: veeery roughly
<Iggy>: from 1st year physics
<Iggy>: in an advanced course
<Vert>: Don't worry. I have never been formally taught it and, as I lack a brain for very advanced mathematics, never will be. Books are a man's best friend and in a pinch the internet.
<Vert>: Assuming the Zan basically shove stuff into the Calabri-Yau manifolds to get rid of it, hence the extensive damage entering a totally different region of space-time or not even that.
<Iggy>: well
<Vert>: If not bubble universes are easier to understand and could also work.
<Iggy>: I'm not entirely sure how that would work. I'm working it in my head like they basically take a pocket of reality and pull it out, and it goes... somewhere unrecoverable.
<Iggy>: I'm kind of surprised that any system would be able to pick things out of those dimensions intact.
<Vert>: It must go somewhere or else turn into energy and there were no supernovas.
<Iggy>: well yes, it does go somewhere
<Iggy>: I'm working with crude metaphors in my head
<Iggy>: It is going somewhere where it is totally isolated
<Vert>: As I said ships were complete wrecks and almost nothing survived, except the Wera.
<Iggy>: yeah
<Iggy>: well, let's see
<Iggy>: a bunch of galactic republic fleets, a few worldships, and 5 wera
<Vert>: I would assume the ships had some shielding and were well-constructed so bubble-universe/Calambri-Yau manifold (which do you prefer) would have mangled extremely badly, not enough to repair but recognisable.
<Vert>: That's why at first it decided to 'eat' them.
<Vert>: Wera are multi-dimensional and have mind-bending powers so they would presumably be shaken but not stirred.
<Vert>: Casualties were the lucky ones in areas where shielding held and weren't kicked out into a new dimension. Pretty messed up from a biological point of view but functioning.
<Vert>: Just about.
<Iggy>: bubble universe is what I've been thinking, but that's because I'm more inclined to use something I understand.
<Iggy>: This is medium soft sci fi.
<Iggy>: wait, I don't get your sentence about casualties
<Vert>: The idea being the people Zem saved were very few and because of the whole being kicked into a new universe thing, not looking so good. Organs not quite in the right places, blood vessels wrapped around things when they shouldn't be, one eye moved to the back of the head.
<Vert>: All the weirdness of sci-fi but still just about alive.
<Vert>: Zem has them in a automated sickbay to keep them alive, not treat them.
<Vert>: Its not designed for organic use.
<Iggy>: okay
<Iggy>: so how advanced is Zem and what can it do?
<Vert>: Zem has its unique travel mode but not too good for shorter distances. The amount of effort and time required for near instantaneous not always a good pay-back. It is fully sapient with super-computers at its core. Shielding systems are advanced, more so than Zan. Bioweaponry is not beyond anything this galaxy could manage but Zem is prepared to develop them.
<Vert>: Others are not. Armour is a strange thing as Zem has had to run repairs from other ships, it is quite big. I don't know exactly how big a world ship is but it certainly rivals super capital ships for size. Armour varies from advanced to paper-thin but armour was seen as less of a priority.
<Vert>: It only needs to protect its brain and other core systems. Maintaining atmospheric conditions and protecting squishy organics is not a problem.
<Vert>: Its weapon systems again are a bit hodgepodge but missiles, high power lasers and other standard sci-fi weapons. Its got a fair few of those. It has a couple of bigger guns to bare as well for other super-capitals. Perhaps more powerful lasers, perhaps big nukes. I'm not sure yet.
<Vert>: It was designed to be functional not super-high tech. They wanted to ensure Zem survived and could track Zan across the galaxy so its sensors are cutting-edge, way beyond even Zan.
<Vert>: Electronic warfare could be matched by a Zan as a Zan has more parallel processing power than Zem. It can out-think it still and thus trap it in firewalls and other nasties. Without a Zan actively leading the fleet, they would struggle to keep Zem out.
<Vert>: Other races may or may not struggle depending on their exact level of advancement but if they can interfere with Zan, they can probably do so to Zem.
<Vert>: Oh and it uses more conventional relativistic engines for normal travel near luminal or however the locals travel. Advanced but not cutting edge. Its also old. Its rambling, thing TARDIS almost. It has bits its forgotten about and parts it things it has but doesn't. It has its own flaws and quirks.
<Vert>: Sorry spelling slowed me down. Anything more?
<Vert>: Oh stealth-systems are based on the shielding technology for active so that's good. Passive is bad due to its armour not being original but just about passable on low power settings.
<Vert>: Key systems: brain, shielding, power systems and weapons. Direct attacks to the hull damage it but it ignores them. Most of it is padding or factories for repair and modification or other, relatively, unimportant stuff in combat.
<Iggy>: interesting, interesting... go on!
<Iggy>: how many kilometers is it in size?
<Iggy>: The largest city ships are 30 km long.
<Iggy>: Alright.
<Iggy>: This seems reasonable.
<Vert>: I would imagine it would be about half that long, as a city-ship requires accommodation etc.
<Iggy>: So it's the last creation of a fallen species, which while advanced, was not ludicrously advanced.
<Iggy>: alright
<Iggy>: you have allayed my fears of it being overpowered.
<Iggy>: GREENSTAMP
<Vert>: Awesome. I imagined a weapon to match the Zan but not one that the Zan could not beat. It often allies with locals. Once its defeated the Zan it will have a problem though, if it does.
<Vert>: Anyway it was made from bits of a dying planet double-quick time and lacks any powers itself so it couldn't be too advanced.
<Vert>: Ouch, I typoed think twice!
<Vert>: Anyway will write a long OOC post explaining some of this or can that come out in stories and keep them worried for now?

Iggy will be able to confirm it is original and not a word has been changed. Even my horrifying typos because I was thinking too fast even for my almost touch-typing to keep up. Ah the joys of dyslexia! This is actually no longer true. A spoiler to storylines unrelated to Zem has been removed.

 

[erez87]

A part for the ability to untwist reality and bring back others into the universe, I think Zem is a great asset to this part of the galaxy. The Zan 'supposedly' rule most of the important parts of the galaxy, if I wouldn't have made Shamai clinically insane he would have conquered this part of the galaxy as well and nothing could have stand in his way - reality removing weapons or not.

A device made of mishmash of technological left overs from races already destroyed by the Zan is a wonderful idea, which the Zan would probably be somewhat aware of and would probably hate. There might be even several Zem's across the galaxy attempting to aid others in stopping the Zan advancement and making attempts at turning it back.


BTW Shamai has already made mini-reality weapons, they seem to not perfectly work against big ships with anti-small-ships weaponry. I've even considered going further and creating nano-ships capable of using reality weapons, which would be like a swarm of dust that can delete you. But I went deeper into the crazy Shamai idea and the Cataclysm gene stuff to see how developed an all encompassing evil gene that makes living things into zombies (on a galactic scale) can be. I'm still considering whether this should be something designed by an ancient race or a virus that evolved quantum abilities and is uncontrollable at this moment.

I assume Shamai race will lose (well Father Shamai will continue his studies, presumably forever since otherwise he would have god-like powers and un-defeat-able by anything around.) and Kena will take over Zan job in this sector. But Kena also has matters in other parts of the galaxy, so he will probably not care much for this area (nothing out of the ordinary except for the sheer numbers of Wera in this part of the universe).

 

[Vertinari118]

Will delete it if asked. It didn't untwist reality as such, it cannot do it at will. It more punched a hole in it because its method of travel left it in there in the first place. Very glad to have a major player liking it though! You got the idea of Zem pretty much in one there.

 

[erez87]

Will delete it if asked. It didn't untwist reality as such, it cannot do it at will. It more punched a hole in it because its method of travel left it in there in the first place. Very glad to have a major player liking it though! You got the idea of Zem pretty much in one there.

It's not really a pocket dimension but actually a removal from this universe. I can understand if your highly advanced way of moving around can somehow cause you to escape such a fate, but also helping others out of not existing sounds silly. Only Wera could try something like that, since they are still alive even without being in this universe.

I wonder what will be with The One. Where is it going inside nowhere?

 

[Vertinari118]

That was the idea of the story. Basically kick the One out of no-where, to even deeper no-where. I imagine the ships would survive as they still have space-time to exist in but are crippled completely beyond repair. Laws of conservation of energy and mass would prevent a removal of something into nothingness. It must go somewhere, even if its outside this universe, else you should get a supernova and as I pointed out to Iggy, there haven't been any supernovas.

Oh Zem resists the superweapons because of its void shields, which it uses to shield itself in a jump. They are not normally active and shield against quantum weirdness and other such things but not much use in regular combat. Indeed combat would be much more difficult with them up. They are also depletable like all shields in sci-fi. If it got sucked in unshielded it would be pretty messed, possibly die as Zem and be a hulk drifting in nothingness. The manuscript is obviously strictly OOC because it contains all the details of Zem.

 

[erez87]

Zem sounds like fun. Too bad it came only now when Shamai is going as loony as ever.

 

[Vertinari118]

It only came now because normally I don't have time for storyNESes and I only recently thought that, hang on, the balance of that's gone out the window in favour of Zan. A loopy Shami should find it even more fun than regular Shami!

 

[erez87]

It only came now because normally I don't have time for storyNESes and I only recently thought that, hang on, the balance of that's gone out the window in favour of Zan. A loopy Shami should find it even more fun than regular Shami!

Current Shamai has no care to Zem what so ever. All it cares about is eradication of life forms. You aren't a life form, so you aren't even counted. Shamai doesn't even look at you as a threat. To make sure you know why, a little story.


Zem? It is called Zem? Funny name. A virus? Does that stupid device think a virus will hurt the most advanced civilization in the galaxy? And of all the only Zan ever to actually meddle in biological matters? Zem will be considered a minor threat. As another tool of those Sanathi fools.

And Kena. Kena has a reality weapon. I still am not sure what will happen if reality weapons will fire at each other at the same time. The amounts of energy are incalculable. The One itself could not feed on the power of a single reality remover in order to survive. Two would be an amazing sight to see. The destruction, the death. Perhaps the creation of something similar to The One, without the life part. Some sort of a constant hole in space and time. I am excited again.

I will move forward. The Sanathi are of little risk, and their rusty gravitational weapons are nothing but an annoyance. Kena is my number one target, together with everything alive once this experiment is done. Oh great cataclysm. Kill all.

 

[Luckymoose]

Shamai? more like Shamwow.

 

[North King]

Sorry if the pocket dimension thing was too far, I'll remove it if you want. But Thayli, perhaps I should explain the inspiration for Zem. It's quite simple really. At the moment you cannot win. Your defeat is almost absolutely inevitable and with it the end of the NES because you are the only power that can hope to withstand the Zan.

OOC: *cough*

*looks pointedly at Wera*

*coughs again*

*looks pointedly at self*

 

[Vertinari118]

The Wera do nothing, when were they last mentioned in an update other than in passing. As for the Fehan. Are you good enough to stand against a united Zan empire with the Galactic Republic, New Branigan and some Collectivity worlds at least? With no prior battle experience against a Zan who can focus in a rather less insane manner on defeating the organics? I am not underestimating the Fehan or your skill as a player to say you might struggle am I? Look at the map. The Collectivity have an entire flank undefended against Zan Kena. You can only strike Shamai, who is failing anyway, by surprise. Such an attack with a strong fleet would be a severe pressure on an already faltering empire. If Kena had already taken control, I think it would be swatted aside. The Fehan are an impressive and advanced race but they do not match the Zan in any of the advantages listed. You would probably stand alone, as you probably cannot plausibly intervene until the Zan turn on you. Unless you're suddenly going to reach the technological Singularity and much beyond in the next few updates or else launch a massive military campaign against an empire you know little of and which has not attacked you, I doubt you will hold the Zan.

 

[North King]

Well, aside from being only semiserious (for now; interesting things are afoot, after all), I think this thread is getting seriously derailed by the OOC so I'll stop. I don't mind your idea in the slightest, Vert, I just had to take the token amount of offense at being ignored.

 

[Vertinari118]

I'll continue any arguments or discussions on chat or by PM. Not that Zem is a magic bullet. You still might end up in the above situation!

 

[Lord_Iggy]

OOC: You are assuming that Kena is going to keep on invading everyone, when Kena has hinted that it is not the case.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Alright, now time for a slightly more complete response.

Sorry if the pocket dimension thing was too far, I'll remove it if you want. But Thayli, perhaps I should explain the inspiration for Zem. It's quite simple really. At the moment you cannot win. Your defeat is almost absolutely inevitable and with it the end of the NES because you are the only power that can hope to withstand the Zan. You will not lose to Zan Shami but Zan Kena, because Zan Kena, once he has taken over Shami's empire for his heresies, will have twice his present resources. He will be undistracted as Shami is.

You assume a lot.

He will have the ability to manufacture Zan superweapons, which, if used correctly, have the ability to be produced on an exponential curve by using each weapon to take the required resources to produce the next one.

You apply a mindset different than that which exists amongst the modern-day Zan. Their general dislike of change that would acknowledge their lack of perfection is a strong disincentive towards advancement. You've talked about progress theodicy and exponential advancement, but the Zan do not necessarily follow the same reasoning as yourself, Vertinari.

The Zan are unbalanced at present and the Wera, who are the other superpower, are not acting to balance it out. I could rewrite the story to my original idea, which I did not write at first because it could not be written from Zem's point of view and thus it would have to be written through the eyes of another player, which is normally expressly prohibited in StoryNESes.

I've never heard of that, you're allowed to write from other players perspectives all that you like. The only disincentive is that some players are concerned that they'll misrepresent each other. Typically they resolve this by talking to each other, or writing first and asking for critiques later. It's worked very well.

That would have you find a derelict Zem floating in space. After much scanning and anxiety on your part, it would activate and explain its purpose. An infinitely more satisfactory introduction.

It does sound very satisfying, not that your present introduction was unsatisfying or anything like that.

Or it can go and not break immersion and I will continue watching and wait until in ten or fifteen updates time Iggy is merely writing, the Zan crushed another rebellion today and continue to be lords and masters of the universe.

Okay, now this is starting to bother me a little bit. You don't know everything about how politics in this universe works, no one does but the people who have seen the full map and read my notes know exactly what the galaxy looks like across multiple levels of development. That's a potential future that you may want to avoid, but it's not inevitable. Nothing is. You're working off of a very small pool of information, as are almost all of the players.

I shall briefly write out a summary of the advantages and disadvantages strategically of the Zan and the Collectivity as I see it to be corrected if wrong.

Zan

Advantages

-Possess superweapons capable of exponential production if used correctly

Again, you assume unconstrained exponential production.

-Complete economy supremacy as their economy is a war economy and has no disadvantages of that. I could easily see the Zan mining a world to its core if they thought it would further their domination of the galaxy and universe.

Their efficiency in converting planetary resources quickly into industry and ship production is well known, leaving many of their worlds as wastelands as a direct result. However, this does not entail complete economic supremacy. Zan follow consistent, pre-established methods for ship production, but are profoundly uncreative. They never adopted the nanofabrication used by the Galactic Republic, and with a few very limited exceptions, choose not to alter their methods, as they are often convinced of their own perfection. Kena is noted as a pragmatist, while Shamai is the equivalent of a mad scientist.

-Communications advantage. You are working to stem this but the Zan still possess the advantage in speed of communications. This is a great strategic and tactical advantage which the updates and stories so far have underestimated in my opinion.

Several species have established high speed communications of one sort or another, and the Fehan have figured out how to work with entangled particles. Zan instantaneous communications aren't a tremendous advantage, and their processing powers are finite, as we saw from the fact that Kena was apparently distracted by something in the previous update.

-Technological advantage. Stating the obvious but the Zan, even the conservative ones such as Kena, possess technology that completely surpasses your own.

This is true, although they do not utilize it with maximal effectiveness. Their most powerful weapons are kept as relics, and Zan vessels have the strong tendency to be glass cannons.

-Attrition advantage. The Zan can win this war by attrition alone, you cannot. Your only option is to force an end by killing every Shami and Kena. That feat is nigh-impossible for you with all your fleets and your economy intact, yet alone now.

This assumes that Kena's whole effort will be directed against the small-fry civilizations of this sector.

-Miniturisation. Zan Shami is distracted at present but Zan Kena has a weapon and knows, presumably, how to construct it by now. If he has overcome his aversion to change enough to use it, I see no reason why he would not reverse-engineer it. Even if he does not, when Zan Shami falls he will probably recover the information. Zan Kena could devote his energies to miniturising the weapon. Imagine ten cruisers armed with mini-superweapons. The weapon has infinite destructive power. The only disadvantage would be decreased range and area-of-effect. A frigate could use them to cut super-battleships in half! If Zan Shami regains his focus he would also no doubt consider this. As the weapons have been allowed, their miniturisation logic would suggest must be allowable for decreased range and area of effect.

Again, you ignore the taboo nature of technological change in Zan culture. Kena was willing to lie on behalf of Shamai, before the rogue Zan went too far. You're basically arguing how powerful this culture could be, if it abandoned several of its core tenets. We are seeing a bit of the terrifying potential of the Zan in Shamai, and we are now seeing that other Zan are willing to kill him for it. As a side note, the weapon doesn't have infinite destructive power, and has punishingly high energy requirements which would make its use on fighters more of a nuisance than anything.

Disadvantages

-Zan arrogance. Most Zan are arrogant and uncreative. Unfortunately Zan Shami is not so if they survive the Zan do not even have this disadvantage.
-Zan Shami's distraction.

All very true.

Collectivity Advantages

-Sheer spunk.
-Mortal emotion such as hope and devotion. Ties in with the above. Double-edged sword.
-Technological innovation, though not fast or deep enough to actually win.
-Mod favour. This is not a criticism of Iggy but Iggy is more likely to favour you as the complete underdog.

All good points, except for the last one. I don't appreciate you implying that any instance of victory against the Zan is my own bias. While I do work to create an interesting and logically-consistent narrative, I won't ever grant victory when it's not reasonable.

Disadvantages

-See Zan advantages.

See my responses.

Assuming this NES continues to remain plausible, you cannot win.

False.

You could only have won by launching every single ship you could manufacture, before the Zan War began, and delivering a single strike straight on Shami himself, preying you kill him.

A potential path for victory, but still just speculation.

A good Zan without Zan tech is pointless. It will not reform Shami, who will see it as an affront to him, nor will it reform Kena, who sees it as an abomination. The Zan are not inherently powerful, only their technology makes them so.

These are all potentially reasonable criticisms, but the Collectivity could also be referring to the symbolic spiritual rehabilitation of an example of the Zan species, even if having a single sentient being won't change a war.

This post is not meant to be aggressive and I apologise now if the tone is wrong and it seems so. It is merely pointing out the elephant in the room. Please someone tell me this is all wrong? Or else that some other deadly surprise lies in wait for the Zan?

I appreciate your enthusiasm and interest in delving into this NES, although I'm less appreciative of your black and white declarations about the natures of a few things in this NES, which may or may not be accurate. They're your opinion, but they're not necessarily the truth. I hope I've done a bit to respond to your concerns.

I did not mean to unbalance the game and should have contacted Iggy beforehand, but I gave into the impulse that I had seen reading the first few updates when I wrote Zem so I wasn't thinking completely straight.

I would have appreciated your talking to me beforehand, but now that you're on board I'd like to do whatever it takes to get your new additions meshing well with everyone else's contributions to GalaxyNES.

Suddenly remembered I saved the manuscript of my conversation with Iggy as a reference material. I will post it in a second. It is quite long.

*snip*

Iggy will be able to confirm it is original and not a word has been changed. Even my horrifying typos because I was thinking too fast even for my almost touch-typing to keep up. Ah the joys of dyslexia! This is actually no longer true. A spoiler to storylines unrelated to Zem has been removed.

I appreciate your removal of the spoilers, I was a bit worried that you'd posted the conversation unedited at first.

A part for the ability to untwist reality and bring back others into the universe, I think Zem is a great asset to this part of the galaxy. The Zan 'supposedly' rule most of the important parts of the galaxy, if I wouldn't have made Shamai clinically insane he would have conquered this part of the galaxy as well and nothing could have stand in his way - reality removing weapons or not.

A device made of mishmash of technological left overs from races already destroyed by the Zan is a wonderful idea, which the Zan would probably be somewhat aware of and would probably hate. There might be even several Zem's across the galaxy attempting to aid others in stopping the Zan advancement and making attempts at turning it back.

I agree with erez' post here. It should be noted that we don't IC know how much of the galaxy is ruled by the Zan. The Zan have empires based in different regions all across the Galaxy, and potentially beyond it as well, but it should be clear from our existence that they don't rule all of it. And yes, Zan Shamai's greatest strength is also his undoing- he's very much a tragic hero in that sense.

BTW Shamai has already made mini-reality weapons, they seem to not perfectly work against big ships with anti-small-ships weaponry. I've even considered going further and creating nano-ships capable of using reality weapons, which would be like a swarm of dust that can delete you.

Given how these weapons tend to scale down, that technology is probably a good distance off.

But I went deeper into the crazy Shamai idea and the Cataclysm gene stuff to see how developed an all encompassing evil gene that makes living things into zombies (on a galactic scale) can be. I'm still considering whether this should be something designed by an ancient race or a virus that evolved quantum abilities and is uncontrollable at this moment.

A mystery that Shamai may very well ponder until the end of his days.

I assume Shamai race will lose (well Father Shamai will continue his studies, presumably forever since otherwise he would have god-like powers and un-defeat-able by anything around.) and Kena will take over Zan job in this sector. But Kena also has matters in other parts of the galaxy, so he will probably not care much for this area (nothing out of the ordinary except for the sheer numbers of Wera in this part of the universe).

Your analysis of Kena may prove to be reasonable.

Will delete it if asked. It didn't untwist reality as such, it cannot do it at will. It more punched a hole in it because its method of travel left it in there in the first place. Very glad to have a major player liking it though! You got the idea of Zem pretty much in one there.

Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if you were actually able to pull things out of pocket dimensions or not... it does come off as a bit too much of a deus ex machina, it seems more likely that you'd just notice a lot of them, but not want to risk going into their interdimensional turbulence and further weaken your void shields. It seems possible that the Wera could have noticed the disturbance and tried to ride out on your spatial wake, however.

It's not really a pocket dimension but actually a removal from this universe. I can understand if your highly advanced way of moving around can somehow cause you to escape such a fate, but also helping others out of not existing sounds silly. Only Wera could try something like that, since they are still alive even without being in this universe.

Yeah.

I wonder what will be with The One. Where is it going inside nowhere?

Everywhere. To be serious, however, I had a few ideas about where freemanuncg might be able to go from this point, all of which seem quite interesting.

That was the idea of the story. Basically kick the One out of no-where, to even deeper no-where. I imagine the ships would survive as they still have space-time to exist in but are crippled completely beyond repair. Laws of conservation of energy and mass would prevent a removal of something into nothingness. It must go somewhere, even if its outside this universe, else you should get a supernova and as I pointed out to Iggy, there haven't been any supernovas.

I don't understand why that has to be the case. The mass still exists, it has been neither created nor destroyed, but it has been isolated into a self-contained system by a massive energy output from a Zan superweapon.

Oh Zem resists the superweapons because of its void shields, which it uses to shield itself in a jump. They are not normally active and shield against quantum weirdness and other such things but not much use in regular combat. Indeed combat would be much more difficult with them up. They are also depletable like all shields in sci-fi. If it got sucked in unshielded it would be pretty messed, possibly die as Zem and be a hulk drifting in nothingness. The manuscript is obviously strictly OOC because it contains all the details of Zem.

That sounds good.

It only came now because normally I don't have time for storyNESes and I only recently thought that, hang on, the balance of that's gone out the window in favour of Zan. A loopy Shami should find it even more fun than regular Shami!

Well, while I don't agree on your assessment about the balance of power, I am very glad to have you involved in GalaxyNES. Now I just have to restore Thlayli's confidence in these matters.

 

[Vertinari118]

Perhaps a bit too black and white but I was arguing from a player persecutive and trying to make a case. Let's put it this way, the Collectivity and Fehan aren't going to start wining against the Zan soon unless they pull off remarkable technological advancements and cordinated action capable of mitigating the advantages. As for communications, I have already stated you underestimate it, in my humble opinion. The advantage is not instantaneous communication in its self, we can already talk as fast as we can type or speak around the world. After all even regular light speed is very fast. But instantaneous communication in the military sense is still not capable. The tactic is known as swarming (see swarming as a military strategy, mongol military tactics and even the England Riots at the moment). These events indicate the advantages of having the commander in every battle-ship, every fighter swarm. The Zan have no command structure merely command algorithms and Zan direct control. Their ability to instantly convey and act on orders is an advantage that would rip enemies apart. Even the smallest gap may be exploited by a fighter swarm. Communications advantages are a somewhat disproportionate force multiplier than one might expect. That is not in any way a criticism and as I said it was my thoughts, where these things are more concrete than with you obviously. I can see the map is incomplete and that leads me only to worry of Zan Kena's further ability to crush this region if, as I would, he sees the defiance shown as an affront to his divinity; one does not pick up a gun and shoot a god without due comeuppance. The only question is can he be bothered? Probably not for now unless someone does something stupid. My point about psychological influence is over-stated as I wrote it. Phyrric defeats seem more plausible somehow and overwhelming crushing annihilations less so, it is not a large one but its unconscious presence and subtle power are inevitable unless you have an envious control over your own unconscious mind Lord Iggy and, if that is the case, I can only bow down in respect.

I need to puncture text with smilies more. I keep forgetting I am not talking and arguing in real-life, something of a habit of mine. I go to a public school and have highly intelligent doctors as parents and siblings, arguing one's point with force and eloquence are somewhat encouraged and even expected. I have a passion for philosophy, strategy, increasingly dabbling in game theory and the odd places it crops up and science so sorry!

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Well, while Shamai and Kena may be able to control things almost instantaneously, that in itself does not preclude the fact that they may not be good military commanders.

My point about psychological influence is over-stated as I wrote it. Phyrric defeats seem more plausible somehow and overwhelming crushing annihilations less so, it is not a large one but its unconscious presence and subtle power are inevitable unless you have an envious control over your own unconscious mind Lord Iggy and, if that is the case, I can only bow down in respect.

What's the difference between a Pyrrhic defeat and an overwhelming crushing annihilation? Given my understanding of what a Pyrrhic victory is, they're the same thing. I have little idea about my control of my unconscious mind, beyond the fact that I want to weave player actions together into a good story.

 

[Vertinari118]

Pyrrhic victory (sorry damn dyslexia, gets worse when I'm tired too) implies you at least, in the short term, gain something and both sides get annihilated. Crushing defeats tend to imply the enemy swat you aside like a fly and carry on to your capital. A pyrrhic victory may or may not be decisive. A crushing defeat is the sort of thing that tends to swing a war in the short term at least in their favour. They are similar but from a tactical point of you a pyrrhic victory is more preferable because it means your forces are evenly matched, assuming you actually have more men.

Exactly an interesting story not a Zan domination. You're job is to keep balance and balance out the Zan and prevent the situation described. The exact effect meant!