Game balance and AI

[Xanthippus]

@Xanthippus,

While your gold is in good shape you are not rolling in it. And don't adopt Slavery either it's still OP. It's the AI that needs the gold. Start making this mod like RI and others who've adopted the austerity is everything idea and the AI will (and has in the past) suffer. If you use every eXploit available to gather gold you the player can swim in it, take a bath with it, whatever.

And I have stated that this current version is a bit easier than the previous. In Part because of the revamped housing line. So gold is more abundant in this version. That has Not been the case in previous ones. It will get squeezed again as soon as Hydro sees this post.

So enjoy it but don't fret over it if you have a few K in the bank.

JosEPh

Fair enough JosEPh, I understand your point. We'll see how things pan out, I just hope that I am not able to purchase anything and everything without breaking a sweat because of a massive reserve of gold. I've already started holding off on building gold producing buildings to help mitigate that though.

 

[Hydromancerx]

It will get squeezed again as soon as Hydro sees this post.

*Adds a new mandatory building called Joe's Blackhole. -10000% to all cities *

 

[Koshling]

Fair enough JosEPh, I understand your point. We'll see how things pan out, I just hope that I am not able to purchase anything and everything without breaking a sweat because of a massive reserve of gold. I've already started holding off on building gold producing buildings to help mitigate that though.

I'm tentatively planning to address the gold issue via a changed maintenance mechanic which is currently under test, and which will cause ramping in maintenance costs more with difficulty level you play at (so provide differetial results versus the AI, which is a key point as Joseph points out).

One comment I would make is that if you play vanilla BtS on monarch you probably need to go up to Immortal for a similar level of difficulty feeling with C2C (I generally recommend 2 level increases). There are 2 reasons for this:

1. C2C has a large number of extra resources, which provide health and/or happyness, so the problems of health/happyness management tend to be significantly reduced in C2C relative to vanilla BtS
2. C2C has many complex mechanics not present in vanilla BtS, which the human player fairly easily figures out creative ways to use to their advantage. The AI is a bit lacking in optimizing some of them

 

[JosEPh_II]

*Adds a new mandatory building called Joe's Blackhole. -10000% to all cities *

You would to if you could figure out how to make it so only I would get it!

Back on topic now. The housing chain changes and additions (like stilt and tree houses, which I like), have made a fair amount of change in gold acquisition in this version. Before I would only build 1 or 2 types from each level and leave the rest alone. This newest batch I found I'm even building Bone Huts when I have Domuses and Insulas available. It's to the point that I build ALL the housing bldgs. This has allowed me to keep a gold treasury thru 2600BC with a balance that varies from 7-12K depending upon unit upgrades and sending our settlers. I keep a Well Maintained army any more. And I now have 34 cities.

My gold per turn has ranged from 90 to 400 over the last 5000 game years. On Epic I hit Medieval Era and associated techs at 2795 BC.

Couple this with the fact that I rigidly restrict my building of the buildings that add Crime, which also reduce Gold because of their maint. costs, I have less drain than a player that still builds the River port chain or the Research chains for example.

In fact if it were not for certain National and World Wonders that require the Library chain I've found out that I can still have decent research levels without having a Library/School of Scribes/Mathematics Academy/University in Every city. So I've become "specialized" (to keep the gold flowing) were before I built everything in these chains in every city. You all have succeeded in changing my playstyle whether I like it or not.

So in regards to the last paragraph I can't play the way I like to but I play how the Mod dictates I must. If this means not building things that were common place before, then I pare them down to the bare necessities. And from this, plus watching the AI closely, I Revolt time and again against the "too much gold mantra".

[Warning!! Entering melodrama land]
So I stand on my hill like a bloodied Knight making his last stand in his crusade for his Holy Land, where the gold and commerce flow freely and the austerity hordes are held at bay. Until the "hordes" overcome me and I have no strength to continue. Finally, at last, I lay fallen and vanquished. My voice but a distant whisper on the waning winds of time. "Leave the Gold alone"

JosEPh

 

[KingArthur666]

@Xanthippus,

While your gold is in good shape you are not rolling in it. And don't adopt Slavery either it's still OP. It's the AI that needs the gold. Start making this mod like RI and others who've adopted the austerity is everything idea and the AI will (and has in the past) suffer. If you use every eXploit available to gather gold you the player can swim in it, take a bath with it, whatever.

And I have stated that this current version is a bit easier than the previous. In Part because of the revamped housing line. So gold is more abundant in this version. That has Not been the case in previous ones. It will get squeezed again as soon as Hydro sees this post.

So enjoy it but don't fret over it if you have a few K in the bank.

JosEPh

Does 200K count as a few? I just barely learned to make swordsman, as opposed to light swordsman. Not sure about the year. I have bought every building in every city and maintain a huge army that makes my strongest opponent have a str rating of about 6.0 compared to me. I would have quit and started a new game many turns ago but I'm still exploring the many changes since the last time I play. The housing not being replaced by newer housing seems weird. I have yet to find the reasoning behind that in the forums.

 

[JosEPh_II]

See previous post!

JosEPh :/

 

[Koshling]

My 'gold standard' rule of thumb in regard to balancing gold is this (at least on any difficulty higher than about monarch):

If you can play the dominant majority of the game on 100% research (or 100% some combination of things not involving any going to gold) there is too much gold.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Wow not even a chuckle? There is no humor in this house. What a tough crowd!

I, Joseph, of sound Body and Mind do hereby bequeath my legacy to any soul fool hardy and brave enough to take the standard from me. I now lay my resistance to rest. The grave is dug, the body wrapped, the trumpet has sounded it's last note. Let it be declared thru out the C2C kingdom the Guardian of the Gold is Dead! Now let the horde cry, "Havoc!" "Victory is ours!"



JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Koshling while testing the new civics modmod I also switched between your change to -ve gold as maintenance. Since I have not played a long session I can only supply antidotal evidence - with 70% sci and 11 per turn verses without 100% sci and 23 per turn.

 

[Koshling]

@Koshling while testing the new civics modmod I also switched between your change to -ve gold as maintenance. Since I have not played a long session I can only supply antidotal evidence - with 70% sci and 11 per turn verses without 100% sci and 23 per turn.

Sounds fair. What difficulty setting? How do you feel about it?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sounds fair. What difficulty setting? How do you feel about it?

I only play at Noble, Huge map, Rev On, and Realist Culture Spread as I am testing mostly. It makes life interesting. I find I can't keep all the animals I used to so use them to add culture as much as food to a city.

Realistic Culture Spread needs some tweaking. perhaps after I review the Admin Buildings and redo the pedia I will get to it.

 

[Xanthippus]

Just another couple of cents to throw in... hammers seem wildly disproportionate too. I just researched priesthood and could built The Oracle in 7 turns in my capital. This is on snail speed. I think I'm about the throw the towel in on this mod. Again, you have clearly worked really hard on this and it's great! I really love all the features, and this is definitely the coolest Civ mod I've come across, but the balance just seems so off that it's not a whole lot of fun. I already feel as though I have this game in the bag and it's still only 3300 BC. I have the highest score, I'm the most advanced, I still have a huge cash reserve even after bribing cities with thousands of gold to not revolt, I'm still raking money in and I have even been avoiding gold producing buildings. If I was to go ahead and build them all, I would be earning hundreds per turn probably, and I could easily field an immense army to conquer, kill and crush anyone and everyone.

Sorry, I really don't mean to whinge, just disappointed that something so awesome, that you guys have clearly put so much effort into, is panning out to be no fun because it's such a cakewalk.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Just another couple of cents to throw in... hammers seem wildly disproportionate too. I just researched priesthood and could built The Oracle in 7 turns in my capital. This is on snail speed. I think I'm about the throw the towel in on this mod. Again, you have clearly worked really hard on this and it's great! I really love all the features, and this is definitely the coolest Civ mod I've come across, but the balance just seems so off that it's not a whole lot of fun. I already feel as though I have this game in the bag and it's still only 3300 BC. I have the highest score, I'm the most advanced, I still have a huge cash reserve even after bribing cities with thousands of gold to not revolt, I'm still raking money in and I have even been avoiding gold producing buildings. If I was to go ahead and build them all, I would be earning hundreds per turn probably, and I could easily field an immense army to conquer, kill and crush anyone and everyone.

Sorry, I really don't mean to whinge, just disappointed that something so awesome, that you guys have clearly put so much effort into, is panning out to be no fun because it's such a cakewalk.

Then, you need to help us balance things. What difficulty level, speed, and map size do you play on?

Hydro went through and increased the costs for the wonders dramatically now we need to see if they were done enough. I used to be able to build the Oracle in 4 turns now it takes 10 on snail which is still a bit fast for a city without marble.

 

[ls612]

Just another couple of cents to throw in... hammers seem wildly disproportionate too. I just researched priesthood and could built The Oracle in 7 turns in my capital. This is on snail speed. I think I'm about the throw the towel in on this mod. Again, you have clearly worked really hard on this and it's great! I really love all the features, and this is definitely the coolest Civ mod I've come across, but the balance just seems so off that it's not a whole lot of fun. I already feel as though I have this game in the bag and it's still only 3300 BC. I have the highest score, I'm the most advanced, I still have a huge cash reserve even after bribing cities with thousands of gold to not revolt, I'm still raking money in and I have even been avoiding gold producing buildings. If I was to go ahead and build them all, I would be earning hundreds per turn probably, and I could easily field an immense army to conquer, kill and crush anyone and everyone.

Sorry, I really don't mean to whinge, just disappointed that something so awesome, that you guys have clearly put so much effort into, is panning out to be no fun because it's such a cakewalk.

Are you using V23 or the SVN version? As DH said, Hydro went and balanced the costs of many wonders a while ago, but that was after V23 was released.

 

[Astax]

OK a lot of things make more sense to me. I too get to a point where the scales tip hugely in my favor fairly early. And the slower speeds do not seem to increase my build times or decrease the # of turns it takes me to conquer the world.

I do not have issue with gold as others, I can find ever increasingly more complex ways to squander it.

 

[ls612]

OK a lot of things make more sense to me. I too get to a point where the scales tip hugely in my favor fairly early. And the slower speeds do not seem to increase my build times or decrease the # of turns it takes me to conquer the world.

I do not have issue with gold as others, I can find ever increasingly more complex ways to squander it.

The build times for wonders, buildings, and units should scale with gamespeed, if they actually aren't that's a bug.

 

[Astax]

I'm using v23, so that's the problem.

 

[ls612]

I'm using v23, so that's the problem.

They still should scale by gamespeed, just not in the same ratios.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Just another couple of cents to throw in... hammers seem wildly disproportionate too. I just researched priesthood and could built The Oracle in 7 turns in my capital. This is on snail speed. I think I'm about the throw the towel in on this mod. Again, you have clearly worked really hard on this and it's great! I really love all the features, and this is definitely the coolest Civ mod I've come across, but the balance just seems so off that it's not a whole lot of fun. I already feel as though I have this game in the bag and it's still only 3300 BC. I have the highest score, I'm the most advanced, I still have a huge cash reserve even after bribing cities with thousands of gold to not revolt, I'm still raking money in and I have even been avoiding gold producing buildings. If I was to go ahead and build them all, I would be earning hundreds per turn probably, and I could easily field an immense army to conquer, kill and crush anyone and everyone.

Sorry, I really don't mean to whinge, just disappointed that something so awesome, that you guys have clearly put so much effort into, is panning out to be no fun because it's such a cakewalk.

I just re looked at your screenshot and My God no wonder you have so much gold @4500BC.
2 Things stand out:
1. You're using either the Stock version 23 and not the SVN. If you are using the SVN you have Not updated in some time. If you had Tribal would have been researches around 35,000BC and Slavery around 28,000BC not 4500BC.
2. What Map are you using!!! Tyre alone has Grapes, Flax, Almonds, Dye, Wheat, And Prime Timber. Holy Crap Batman 6 resources in your cities Fat X! Your map has Way too many resources! Give ME a map like that! And I'd never cry about too little gold either. That map is overboard.

So don't be dissin' the Mod as "too easy" when you pick a Map like that to play on.

What difficulty level are you using (if you've already posted it I missed it.)?
How big a Map? What Kind of Map (obviously one with a resource on every tile )?
What Game speed? Much more detail please.

And finally do you judge all the mods you try of off one go round?

Sorry Xanthippus but your assessment of the Mod is badly flawed just by the Map your using. And you've given it a bad rap because of your bad choice. Not fair at all.

JosEPh

 

[Tipsy3000]

I just re looked at your screenshot and My God no wonder you have so much gold @4500BC.
2 Things stand out:
1. You're using either the Stock version 23 and not the SVN. If you are using the SVN you have Not updated in some time. If you had Tribal would have been researches around 35,000BC and Slavery around 28,000BC not 4500BC.
2. What Map are you using!!! Tyre alone has Grapes, Flax, Almonds, Dye, Wheat, And Prime Timber. Holy Crap Batman 6 resources in your cities Fat X! Your map has Way too many resources! Give ME a map like that! And I'd never cry about too little gold either. That map is overboard.

So don't be dissin' the Mod as "too easy" when you pick a Map like that to play on.

What difficulty level are you using (if you've already posted it I missed it.)?
How big a Map? What Kind of Map (obviously one with a resource on every tile )?
What Game speed? Much more detail please.

And finally do you judge all the mods you try of off one go round?

Sorry Xanthippus but your assessment of the Mod is badly flawed just by the Map your using. And you've given it a bad rap because of your bad choice. Not fair at all.

JosEPh

Wait the abundant resources on your capital is not suppose to be normal? Im playing on perfectworld2f (or one of the perfectworlds) and just about every game on everyone's capital there is a ton of resources surrounding it. I have not tried perfectmongoose or whatever its called or the other map types yet so I assumed its the same across the board.