Game balance and AI

[JosEPh_II]

No it's a player exploit. And that's another reason I don't use PW2F and some of the "Other" Maps like it.

On a Standard C2C Archipelago, Islands, Lakes, Continents (Custom or not), Fractal, and the other basic CIV IV Maps converted to C2C It's a rare event to have more than 2 or 3 Resources in your Capital city's Fat X at game start. And you hope that later with the triggering tech, that Copper and Iron might show up near it.

Wow it just stuns me to realize that the Main Modders of this Mod are using such exploitative Maps and recommend them to new players! No wonder the players cry about too much gold, another reason for is now exposed.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

No it's a player exploit. And that's another reason I don't use PW2F and some of the "Other" Maps like it.

On a Standard C2C Archipelago, Islands, Lakes, Continents (Custom or not), Fractal, and the other basic CIV IV Maps converted to C2C It's a rare event to have more than 2 or 3 Resources in your Capital city's Fat X at game start. And you hope that later with the triggering tech, that Copper and Iron might show up near it.

Wow it just stuns me to realize that the Main Modders of this Mod are using such exploitative Maps and recommend them to new players! No wonder the players cry about too much gold, another reason for is now exposed.

JosEPh

Personally I mostly use GEM, and it doesn't have that sort ofvresource to tile ratio.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I do feel that most maps are way too under-resourced to even play considering how many resources the game now has. When you look at real world Earth, you would see that nearly everywhere is good for something of a resource value. I tend to think that its the non-exploitive maps as you put it that need some enhancing on resources rather than the other way around. Although I can agree that perhaps on such maps it is a bit much and could use some tweaking down a bit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well it's probably for Xanthippus a moot point now. As it seems he has given up on C2C.

But I do feel new players shouldn't be pointed towards such maps to start learning this mod. If they choose to use them, well what can you really do? But to have someone come in fresh, grab a Map like he's playing, then complain that it's all to easy, it gives a false impression of what the Mod can be. But then again some players want all the exploits they can get. I've done my share in the past.

JosEPh

 

[MaXimillionZero]

But to have someone come in fresh, grab a Map like he's playing, then complain that it's all to easy, it gives a false impression of what the Mod can be.

Why exactly does a map with more resources make things easy when the AI also receives more resources?

 

[GiuseppeIII]

I do feel that most maps are way too under-resourced to even play considering how many resources the game now has. When you look at real world Earth, you would see that nearly everywhere is good for something of a resource value. I tend to think that its the non-exploitive maps as you put it that need some enhancing on resources rather than the other way around. Although I can agree that perhaps on such maps it is a bit much and could use some tweaking down a bit.

Well you could have Aton of resources on the map if you decreased the usefulness of each resource. Or some people might complain about that so how about changing how the AI trades and values the resources also tweak other stuff involving gold like the science slider. Just an idea

 

[Xanthippus]

I just re looked at your screenshot and My God no wonder you have so much gold @4500BC.
2 Things stand out:
1. You're using either the Stock version 23 and not the SVN. If you are using the SVN you have Not updated in some time. If you had Tribal would have been researches around 35,000BC and Slavery around 28,000BC not 4500BC.
2. What Map are you using!!! Tyre alone has Grapes, Flax, Almonds, Dye, Wheat, And Prime Timber. Holy Crap Batman 6 resources in your cities Fat X! Your map has Way too many resources! Give ME a map like that! And I'd never cry about too little gold either. That map is overboard.

So don't be dissin' the Mod as "too easy" when you pick a Map like that to play on.

What difficulty level are you using (if you've already posted it I missed it.)?
How big a Map? What Kind of Map (obviously one with a resource on every tile )?
What Game speed? Much more detail please.

And finally do you judge all the mods you try of off one go round?

Sorry Xanthippus but your assessment of the Mod is badly flawed just by the Map your using. And you've given it a bad rap because of your bad choice. Not fair at all.

JosEPh

1. Yes, you're right. I did not realise this was outdated. Did I just miss something, or does the main C2C download thread not make it clear that version 23 is the latest version? Because that's where I downloaded it, I didn't realise I needed to use SVN to get the latest. But I am doing that now.

2. I am using the Huge Earth Map that came with the mod. I only ever use Earth maps, I can't stand random maps.

Look, sorry if it came off as me whinging or trying to badmouth the mod, that wasn't my intention. I haven't given up on it either, Civ games are just a serious investment, as far as I see them. It takes days just to get from one era to the next, especially on a game like this, and it always takes awhile to tell if a game is going to work or not, so it can just be a bit frustrating. Anyways... I will give the SVN a go, and I am more than happy to give feedback to help improve it. That is what I wanted anyway, not to just complain!

 

[Sgtslick]

have u tried the GEM map? awesome earth map but u need a pretty pimped out pc to play it once its filled up with cities.

 

[Xanthippus]

I think that's the one I was using, from memory.

 

[Sgtslick]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=457501# this one? its gigantic, not huge. If you have the svn when u update you'll get this map.

edit* just saw your screen shot, yup your using GEM

And part of the reason there are so many resources around where you are located is because its packed with civs.

 

[ls612]

1. Yes, you're right. I did not realise this was outdated. Did I just miss something, or does the main C2C download thread not make it clear that version 23 is the latest version? Because that's where I downloaded it, I didn't realise I needed to use SVN to get the latest. But I am doing that now.

2. I am using the Huge Earth Map that came with the mod. I only ever use Earth maps, I can't stand random maps.

Look, sorry if it came off as me whinging or trying to badmouth the mod, that wasn't my intention. I haven't given up on it either, Civ games are just a serious investment, as far as I see them. It takes days just to get from one era to the next, especially on a game like this, and it always takes awhile to tell if a game is going to work or not, so it can just be a bit frustrating. Anyways... I will give the SVN a go, and I am more than happy to give feedback to help improve it. That is what I wanted anyway, not to just complain!

1. V23 is the latest 'stable' release we have. The SVN version is the playtesting/modder's version, which anyone can use. It can though have bugs and other issues though.

2. Try using the GEM, as Sgtslick suggested, or if your PC isn't extremely good, try using the PerfectMongoose (PW3) mapscript, it normally gives good and balanced maps.

 

[Xanthippus]

Started again with the SVN version, with Carthage on GEM (which seemed to be missing from this version, but I copied across the map from the other). Playing on Eternity, Immortal with all the default options on, except vassals off. So far so good... I'm equal bottom of the totem pole of civs I know and I am finding the challenge about right.

Only problem I've encountered thus far is a minor issue at best, and that is the date. It is way out of sync with technological progress. It starts out good, but then seems to speed up way too quickly. One minute it was 8000 BC, the next time I checked it (several turns later, but not heaps) it was 2000 BC. I hadn't even finished reaching Tool Making by this point! But like I said, not a huge issue, just a little annoying when I glance at the date. lol

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Xanthippus,
Has Hydro's revamp of the Housing line helped in reducing the Gold surplus?

Is the GEM map still chocked full of resources too? I don't use it and if it's that full then I won't use it either. (And can't really believe that ppl keep recommending it, it's a cheat imho) Even if the AI has the same abundance it takes away from the strategy of city placement and the race to get the better city sites.

I know I sounded harsh but i was shocked at the amount of resources there were in just that screenie at 4500BC in your old game.

Happy to see you're sticking around And you're getting a better challenge this time.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Started again with the SVN version, with Carthage on GEM (which seemed to be missing from this version, but I copied across the map from the other). Playing on Eternity, Immortal with all the default options on, except vassals off. So far so good... I'm equal bottom of the totem pole of civs I know and I am finding the challenge about right.

Only problem I've encountered thus far is a minor issue at best, and that is the date. It is way out of sync with technological progress. It starts out good, but then seems to speed up way too quickly. One minute it was 8000 BC, the next time I checked it (several turns later, but not heaps) it was 2000 BC. I hadn't even finished reaching Tool Making by this point! But like I said, not a huge issue, just a little annoying when I glance at the date. lol

Wait what? On the latest SVN, I just double-checked and there are 1667 turns between 8000 and 2000 BC on Eternity!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Wait what? On the latest SVN, I just double-checked and there are 1667 turns between 8000 and 2000 BC on Eternity!

If you have the option to auto end turns with no decissions then it can seem like you have fewer turns.

 

[ls612]

If you have the option to auto end turns with no decissions then it can seem like you have fewer turns.

If he did absolutely nothing between those two times (not likely), and had a monstrous computer, it would still take ~5 hours just auto-ending turns to get that far!

 

[Xanthippus]

@Xanthippus,
Has Hydro's revamp of the Housing line helped in reducing the Gold surplus?

Is the GEM map still chocked full of resources too? I don't use it and if it's that full then I won't use it either. (And can't really believe that ppl keep recommending it, it's a cheat imho) Even if the AI has the same abundance it takes away from the strategy of city placement and the race to get the better city sites.

I know I sounded harsh but i was shocked at the amount of resources there were in just that screenie at 4500BC in your old game.

Happy to see you're sticking around And you're getting a better challenge this time.

JosEPh

1. I'll get back to you on that one, I haven't got any dwellings yet.

2. Well it's the exact same one from v23, so I would say so. I am playing Carthage this time though, and there are less resources about so far.

3. No worries!

 

[Xanthippus]

Wait what? On the latest SVN, I just double-checked and there are 1667 turns between 8000 and 2000 BC on Eternity!

Yeah, I have definitely encountered a bug. I am just finishing up research on Soft-Hammer Percussion and it's already 2300 AD. lol I've also had an unrealistic amount of volcanic activity. I had one pop up in the ocean tile South East of Carthage, then a few tens of turns later one NE, then one directly North. I used the world editor to get rid of the last two.

I've attached my save. If anyone knows of a quick fix I would be eternally grateful. Like I said, it's a minor issue... but just glancing at the date is irritating. lol

Also, don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but not all subdued animals (land animals) are able to build the master hunter. Seems a bit arbitrary that a subdued horse can, but not a subdued lion.

 

[Koshling]

Yeah, I have definitely encountered a bug. I am just finishing up research on Soft-Hammer Percussion and it's already 2300 AD. lol I've also had an unrealistic amount of volcanic activity. I had one pop up in the ocean tile South East of Carthage, then a few tens of turns later one NE, then one directly North. I used the world editor to get rid of the last two.

I've attached my save. If anyone knows of a quick fix I would be eternally grateful. Like I said, it's a minor issue... but just glancing at the date is irritating. lol

Also, don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but not all subdued animals (land animals) are able to build the master hunter. Seems a bit arbitrary that a subdued horse can, but not a subdued lion.

Start year is encoded in the scenario for scenarios I thikn. The gaem now satrts in 50000BC and turn progression is scaled for that base, but older GEMs still start at 12000BC and hence dates are badly screwed up. Since you say you used an old GEM rather than the one that came with the release you have that likely explains this. Also you'll be missing a load of key resources that were not placed on earlier GEMs.

 

[Xanthippus]

Start year is encoded in the scenario for scenarios I thikn. The gaem now satrts in 50000BC and turn progression is scaled for that base, but older GEMs still start at 12000BC and hence dates are badly screwed up. Since you say you used an old GEM rather than the one that came with the release you have that likely explains this. Also you'll be missing a load of key resources that were not placed on earlier GEMs.

Oh man that makes me sad. Been playing for two days to get to this point... le sigh. Guess I'll start again. lol However, no GEM maps came at all with the SVN version I got, hence why I copied the old one from v23. Would anyone be so kind as to upload the latest version and/or point me to where I could get it?