Game options review

Rwn · May 29, 2015

Following up on that discussion:

alberts2 said:
The main problem is that C2C is just too big.

The size and the times of rapid expansion in the past caused lots of hidden issues so it often happens that you end up trying to fix all kinds of stuff before you can start to do what you really had planed to do. Simple changes become a nightmare because you have to consider too manny other things with all the various settings, playstyles and so on..............
If you really want to test even smaller changes with all the different settings it would take weeks of fulltime testing. Nobody with a fulltime job plus overtime plus family and such things has the time to do that and if you try it it just sucks you dry.

Rwn said:
Maybe it would be worth reducing a bit the number of game options (merging some, making some always active, etc.)? I think there are also a number of options that are currently considered broken or at the very least not maintained (advanced start, traits, etc.) that could be deactivated by default and set to invisible - up to anyone to work on them one day, but in the meantime they don't confuse modders and new players.

alberts2 said:
I would remove the Advanced Economy option completely and a few others maybe.
Some options are already hidden and on as default i would just make those non optional.

But there are also all the Bug-Options.

The general idea would be to put some options in invisible, giving an implicit message that those options are not maintained and may not work or imbalance the game. Also, it'd reduce the very long and hard to assess list of options at game start.
It'd still be possible to activate invisible options by editing the GameInfo file, but it'd up to the player to take the risk if he wants.

Here's the list of the game options (not including BUG options).

Let's start with already invisible options:

Spoiler :

Those are hidden so I guess the player that goes messing up here knows what he's doing. Still I'm wondering if some of those could be removed, like Castles, Arctic and parks, Meteorology, Early Buildings, Ecological animals... Who'd play without them? Though doing so would break saves...
OTOH "No Goody Huts" could come back visible (though still off by default), it doesn't really alters balance or difficulty, it just add some exploration gameplay early on, so it should be fine whether or not a player uses it.

Now for the big piece, visible options:

Spoiler :

There are 71 options visible and to chose from... I really think this should be lowered, for easier maintenance, balancing, clarity and ease of use... Let's go one by one.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION deactivates the Revolution component and is activated by default. Why is that? If it's broken (it seemed to work fine in my game, but maybe the AI has difficulties with it?), it should go invisible until it's fixed, otherwise it should be off by default, Revolution is a nice feature.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV prevents barbarian from spawning civilizations and is activated by default. If that's because it doesn't work well, it should be put invisible...
- GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER prevents tiles around a city to be culture-converted. It's activated by default, which seems reasonable; I'd say this could go invisible to reduce maintenance (I don't think it has a deep enough impact on the game to be worth taking space in the main screen).
- GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES create more rivers and resources and are activated by default. They do have a moderate impact on the gameplay

commerce:, fresh water, trade network, resource competition...), the question is, should they be put invisible to reduce maintenance (and assume the player uses them when balancing the game; if a player deactivates them, that's up to him). I'd say yes but not completely convinced.
- I believe GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START doesn't work at the moment, so it should be put invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_RAZING forbids city razing. Some players might like it, it doesn't really alter the balance, so I'd say it's good as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING forbids city culture flipping. Given how difficult it is to see it happening, I'm not sure why one would want to activate that, so I'd put it invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST gives a chance to a city to return to its previous owner. Never used it, so I don't know how it works in pratice.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS removes a key element of the game as (IIRC) it'd also remove animals. This should be invisible to avoid confusing people into thinking it simply removes the wandering Neanderthalian.
- GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS spawns more barbarians. Problem is, it also spawns a lot more animals and makes the game actually easier in my experience. I'd say this one should also be invisible to avoid confusion on what it does.
- GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI makes the AI more agressive. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_LEAD_ANY_CIV allows any combination of leader and civ, mainly for traits. Probably not very useful if traits are deactivated (see below), so should probably be off (for immersion) and invisible by default.
- GAMEOPTION_RANDOM_PERSONALITIES randomizes the AI's behavior. Seems fine like it is.
- GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION allows players to pick any religion when founding one. Given how different the religions are, this might imbalance the game and lead to bad situations (if you select a non-missionary religion long before actually getting missionaries for example) so I'd suggest putting it invisible to only let players that know what doing selecting it.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING and GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING prevent or limit tech trading with/between AIs. Fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_PERMANENT_ALLIANCES allows the creation of permanent alliances. Not sure if anyone would like to play with it with AIs, but I guess it's at least useful in MP.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE enforces permanent war and peace. Not something you want in a C2C game, so should be invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS requires to kill units in addition to invading cities to wipe out a civ. I'd actually activate it and put it invisible, I don't really see the harm in activating it (and deactivating it prevents a civ from reconquering a city with its remaining units...).
- GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES removes the possibility of vassal states. It removes an important feature of the game, so I'd put it invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_EVENTS removes events. Fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE removes espionage. I'd suggest putting it in invisible to reduce maintenance; I'm pretty sure noone is playing C2C with this on anyway.
- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD creates 1 barbarian civ per player at game start. IIRC they tend to make things harder for AIs as well as allowing a second city before tribalism if you conquer one, so I'd recommend making it invisible (and off).
- GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS prevents a player from founding a religion if he has already a holy city. Not sure the option is really useful (there's already GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING to prevent abuses) so it could probably be invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS prevents purging non-state religions. Seems fine.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION prevents tech diffusion to other less advanced civs. Some players don't like it, so it looks fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS makes everyone start at war. IIRC the AIs behave badly with it, so should be invisible until fixed.
- GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS allows using mountains (under certain conditions). I don't really see why anyone wouldn't want that, so it should be on by default and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_SAD activates surround and destroy. IIRC it creates some performance and AI issues, so it might be worth putting it invisible to let only aware people using it?
- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY adds new diplomatic options. If the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS removes the wonder limit per city. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).
- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS allows barbarian to get generals. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).
- GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC removes the zones of control mechanism. Even the tooltip advises to deactivate it, so it should be invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS regularly kills the weakest civ until there are 5 left. I wouldn't play with that, but maybe other like it (and it might help with late-game performance with lots of starting civs), so it could remain visible.
- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW makes you switch to the lowest-score civ when you reach the highest score. Sounds really like an odd way of playing the game so I'd assume it's very rarely used and would put it invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY increases the game difficulty along the game. I don't really understand why one would want to play with that (if you want a more difficult game, just select a higher difficulty from the start?), so I'd say this could go invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI makes the AIs even more agressive than GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible. In any case, I'd recommend keeping at most one visible between GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI and GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI, no need to add a second difficulty "ladder" in addition to the normal difficulty setting.
- GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS gives new options to Great Generals. It adds new features that do not seem very controversial, why shouldn't it be on by default? If it doesn't work well, should be off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_CULTURALLY_LINKED_STARTS tries to put the distance between civs similar to the real world. Not sure why would anyone want this?
- GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP adds some landmark texts on the map. IIRC it doesn't work correctly, if so, it should be invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY doesn't work well according to alberts2, so invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD makes territory expansion take into account the geography. It's actually quite nice, I'd put it on by default (though still visible for those who don't like it).
- GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES allows working 3 tiles away as soon as they're inside the territory. Significantly alters game balance since this should only be possible with Metropolitan Administration; to make maintenance easier I'd put it invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CORPORATIONS change how corporations work. Don't know whether it should be on or off (never been up to that point in a game...), but should probably remain visible.
- GAMEOPTION_RELIGION_DECAY makes religions disappear from a city when there are too many. Seems fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIANS_ALWAYS_RAZE makes barbarians always raze. Seems fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_UNITED_NATIONS allows UN and Apostolic Palace to be built even when Diplomatic victory is off (to allow resolutions). I'd recommend on by default and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ESPIONAGE unlocks new espionage options. Like GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY, if the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS adds new resources to corporations. Again, never been up to that point in a game, so I don't really know if it should be on or off.
- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_NUKES unlocks new types of nukes. Same as before.
- GAMEOPTION_DIVINE_PROPHETS gives Great Prophet which are able to found a religion instead of founding a religion in a random city. Rather interesting, though it can be abused by keeping Great Prophets. Still, I'd put it on and visible by default.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes hard-fixed number of cities limit from civics. I'm not even sure there are still any such limits in civics, and this should be managed through unhappiness and maintenance, so I'd put it invisible (and off).
- GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS disables fixed borders. Not sure why would anyone want that since if you don't want fixed borders, you just have to chose civics that don't put fixed borders... Recommend off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP disables experience loss when upgrading a unit. Should probably remain off and visible as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS removes the unit limit (not just on national units). This option significantly imbalances the game since it also allows infinite warlords, nobles, etc. so I'd put it off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS, GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS change how traits work in game. In my understanding traits are not balanced at all now, so GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS and GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS should be on to prevent traits altogether and all 4 invisible until fixed.
- GAMEOPTION_NO_NUKES disables nukes from the game. Good as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS changes city limits based on map size. Like GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES, I'm guessing it significantly imbalances the game and will make it hard to balance the game properly with this option, so should be off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING prevents cumulative bonuses from having several religions and building several monasteries for example. The tooltip says it's in beta, but it seems to work fine; if it's indeed working, I'd put activate it by default and make it invisible to make balancing and maintenance easier (assuming that players don't use this kind of abuse), if it's not, then off and invisible by default.
- GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS increases building and unit costs. Different game experience I guess; could probably be removed at some point if the buildings and unit costs are reviewed, but until then, the option should probably remain off and visible.
- GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS both unlock new combat possibilities. I know many players don't like it, so it should remain visible even if it significantly alters the game balance. Not sure whether it should be on by default.
- GAMEOPTION_XP_FROM_ASSIGNED_SPECIALISTS gives xp to units from specialists in the city. Quite sure that's not balanced, so I'd turn it off and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_MORE_XP_TO_LEVEL increase amount of xp needed to level up. Fine as it is.
- GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE increases the difficulty. I believe there are far too many difficulty levels that change too many things to properly manage game balance; even in Nightmare mode the lowest difficulty settings aren't that challenging, so I'd put it on and invisible.
- GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT cancels the strength and hp change from SizeMatters. I'm not sure why this isn't part of the base Size Matters component; anyway I think it should be invisible (whether on or off) to avoid confusion.

What would it look like with the above changes?
The following 31 options (about half as much as before) would remain visible, and could even be reordered in a more logical order so that similar options are together:

Spoiler :

Toffer90 · May 29, 2015

The most important one to change imo would be - GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS to be always on and invisible as it allows the player to get great hunters/generals from battles with barbarians/animals. ~~Other than that I have not made up any opinions here~~.

EDIT:

- GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS

It shouldn't be on by default as it makes the game easier for the player. It should be visible because it's a cool feature.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS

Should be visible. Not everyone like the animal/barbarian aspect of the mod.

- GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS

Off invisible. Don't think anyone would prefer the chaos this one cause.

Rwn said:
- GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES

Should be visible. Same argument as for no barbarians option.

- GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS

Should be visible and off by default, as it can be annoying as hell to have 2-3 nations that have existed for 2-300 turns with only an outrigger or scout. (I always play with it on though.)

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes hard-fixed number of cities limit from civics. I'm not even sure there are still any such limits in civics, and this should be managed through unhappiness and maintenance, so I'd put it invisible (and off).

I'm pretty sure this one removes the unhappiness penalty for having more cities than the government set limit. Should be visible

- GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER

Why would anyone turn this on....

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD

I don't see the harm in leaving this visible, some might like the concept.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY

This one is important and should be visible for those that want a challenge without the AI starting with two cities and lots of techs and wanderers and whatnot.

Rwn · May 29, 2015

Toffer90 said:
The most important one to change imo would be - GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS to be always on and invisible as it allows the player to get great hunters/generals from battles with barbarians/animals. Other than that I have not made up any opinions here.

Oh, I forgot that it also applied to combats against barbarians! I agree it should be on/invisible then.

Thunderbrd · May 29, 2015

- GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION deactivates the Revolution component and is activated by default. Why is that? If it's broken (it seemed to work fine in my game, but maybe the AI has difficulties with it?), it should go invisible until it's fixed, otherwise it should be off by default, Revolution is a nice feature.

I don't personally like Revolution and it isn't 'broken'... just flawed in a few places with some very difficult to resolve bugs. I just personally don't think its well thought out enough to warrant having it default to come on and too many love it despite its flaws so we can't take it out.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV prevents barbarian from spawning civilizations and is activated by default. If that's because it doesn't work well, it should be put invisible...

It's on by default because the majority would prefer to have a faster processing game and may, not knowing better, have memory issues if they turn it off due to biting off more then their computer can chew in other selections like map size. It's not invisible because many of us really like the option, myself included.

- GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER prevents tiles around a city to be culture-converted. It's activated by default, which seems reasonable; I'd say this could go invisible to reduce maintenance (I don't think it has a deep enough impact on the game to be worth taking space in the main screen).

I really hate this option. I'm with Joe on this one. Absolutely destroys some good old fashioned strategies from vanilla days and diminishes the value of culture by a tremendous amount.

- GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES create more rivers and resources and are activated by default. They do have a moderate impact on the gameplay (, fresh water, trade network, resource competition...), the question is, should they be put invisible to reduce maintenance (and assume the player uses them when balancing the game; if a player deactivates them, that's up to him). I'd say yes but not completely convinced.
- I believe GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START doesn't work at the moment, so it should be put invisible.

Some want it some don't. Some games you might want it while in others you wouldn't. Seems reasonable options to me.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_RAZING forbids city razing. Some players might like it, it doesn't really alter the balance, so I'd say it's good as it is.

I don't see the point of forbidding city razing but I suppose others might.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING forbids city culture flipping. Given how difficult it is to see it happening, I'm not sure why one would want to activate that, so I'd put it invisible.

I'm with you on that. Frustrating how easy it is to keep a city from culture flipping to the point that it simply never happens.

- GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST gives a chance to a city to return to its previous owner. Never used it, so I don't know how it works in pratice.

I'd say default it on because it's always just an option given to the player to allow it or deny it. Since it forces no real change to the game, merely allows some new choices, why not on and invisible?

- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS removes a key element of the game as (IIRC) it'd also remove animals. This should be invisible to avoid confusing people into thinking it simply removes the wandering Neanderthalian.

I think it had been turned off and invisible until too many wanted it back. It has been made to not remove animals I believe.

- GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS spawns more barbarians. Problem is, it also spawns a lot more animals and makes the game actually easier in my experience. I'd say this one should also be invisible to avoid confusion on what it does.

Some really like their barbs. SO would have an issue with putting this one in the invisible bin.

- GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI makes the AI more agressive. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible.

There are a lot of hidden negative aspects of how this impacts the AI's decision making abilities. I might advise turning it off and making it invisible but only due to what I've seen other programmers saying about it.

- GAMEOPTION_LEAD_ANY_CIV allows any combination of leader and civ, mainly for traits. Probably not very useful if traits are deactivated (see below), so should probably be off (for immersion) and invisible by default.

Some people put a lot of stock in the sense of playing a particular leader, game effects meaningful or not, and being able to do so with any selected civ, game effects meaningful or not. There's a lot in a name and a picture sometimes.

- GAMEOPTION_RANDOM_PERSONALITIES randomizes the AI's behavior. Seems fine like it is.

Yeah, sometimes its nice to be able to predict them a bit and other times its nice to not be able to.

- GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION allows players to pick any religion when founding one. Given how different the religions are, this might imbalance the game and lead to bad situations (if you select a non-missionary religion long before actually getting missionaries for example) so I'd suggest putting it invisible to only let players that know what doing selecting it.

The same players that would know what they are doing by selecting this option may not be so willing to learn what they are doing to the point of manipulating files on the backend. I would present my wife as a perfect example. She'd throw a fit about this one being invisible.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING and GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING prevent or limit tech trading with/between AIs. Fine as it is.

Yeah, this is a very necessary option.

- GAMEOPTION_PERMANENT_ALLIANCES allows the creation of permanent alliances. Not sure if anyone would like to play with it with AIs, but I guess it's at least useful in MP.

I find this one random and game wrecking. Why would you not use team setups instead?

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE enforces permanent war and peace. Not something you want in a C2C game, so should be invisible.

I agree. Bleuch! Never understood why someone would've been motivated to even program this option.

- GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS requires to kill units in addition to invading cities to wipe out a civ. I'd actually activate it and put it invisible, I don't really see the harm in activating it (and deactivating it prevents a civ from reconquering a city with its remaining units...).

My wife and I truly detest this option because we like to be able to actually destroy our enemies. We find that we can never track down the last unit(s) and it leads to the culture never clearing and the war weariness maintaining for too long. It's also annoying to have a straggling player listed who really doesn't exist, constantly coming up bugging you to trade or do something for him when he's really just dead.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES removes the possibility of vassal states. It removes an important feature of the game, so I'd put it invisible.

And on or off???? I think it's been proven there is a HUGE division of players that believe it's a horrible game feature and others that think its just great. I'm of the opinion its a terrible game feature because it makes all potential opponents line up like dominoes - as soon as you're about to win a war they go and pander to an ally you've been working on getting friendly with and suddenly your at war with your ally as well. It completely destroys the diplomatic side of the game imo.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_EVENTS removes events. Fine as it is.

Sometimes events can be buggy for multiplayer so its important to keep this optional.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE removes espionage. I'd suggest putting it in invisible to reduce maintenance; I'm pretty sure noone is playing C2C with this on anyway.

I'd be fine with this myself. I don't know if anyone plays with it on either.

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD creates 1 barbarian civ per player at game start. IIRC they tend to make things harder for AIs as well as allowing a second city before tribalism if you conquer one, so I'd recommend making it invisible (and off).

Agree with invisible and off as I don't think its positive for the game structure.

- GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS prevents a player from founding a religion if he has already a holy city. Not sure the option is really useful (there's already GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING to prevent abuses) so it could probably be invisible.

There's quite a cult following on this option. I hate it myself but there are those that feel its THE solution to the game's problems.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS prevents purging non-state religions. Seems fine.

I don't know why anyone would play with this off but I guess some might have an issue with it.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION prevents tech diffusion to other less advanced civs. Some players don't like it, so it looks fine as it is.

Agreed. Good as an option.

- GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS makes everyone start at war. IIRC the AIs behave badly with it, so should be invisible until fixed.

I don't like it myself but not enough to turn it invisible as I know there are die hard fans who would prefer to play it bugged than not at all.

- GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS allows using mountains (under certain conditions). I don't really see why anyone wouldn't want that, so it should be on by default and invisible.

Talk to DH. I'm with you on this one.

- GAMEOPTION_SAD activates surround and destroy. IIRC it creates some performance and AI issues, so it might be worth putting it invisible to let only aware people using it?

I don't think it causes much in the way of performance issues but I don't know that for sure. It certainly would be horrible to make invisible as many players think its the best answer to the stack of doom issue that we should've had instead of the one that was introduced in CivV. Even though the AI doesn't use it well, its still a work of strategic genius and a major reason to like the mod as a whole.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY adds new diplomatic options. If the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.

I don't see why anyone would play with it off except for the infernal demand for embassies that tend to make trading with a nation less valuable than it would otherwise be.

- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS removes the wonder limit per city. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).

Yeah, we'd be causing a form war to suggest anything else.

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS allows barbarian to get generals. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).

I truly believe it should be on and invisible. I don't see why anyone would want it off and I believe it's necessary to see any great hunters come into the game.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC removes the zones of control mechanism. Even the tooltip advises to deactivate it, so it should be invisible.

I'm sure there are a lot of players who like ZoC. The problem is it's processing sucks and it frustrates a lot of players with the whole logical basis behind it. (count me as one)

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS regularly kills the weakest civ until there are 5 left. I wouldn't play with that, but maybe other like it (and it might help with late-game performance with lots of starting civs), so it could remain visible.

Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW makes you switch to the lowest-score civ when you reach the highest score. Sounds really like an odd way of playing the game so I'd assume it's very rarely used and would put it invisible.

Yeah... it's... strange. And a little bugged at times too.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY increases the game difficulty along the game. I don't really understand why one would want to play with that (if you want a more difficult game, just select a higher difficulty from the start?), so I'd say this could go invisible.

The problem I have here is that there's also a set of options to control and turn it on and off in the bug options and I can never seem to figure out if its even necessary to have this option in the game option list.

- GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI makes the AIs even more agressive than GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible. In any case, I'd recommend keeping at most one visible between GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI and GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI, no need to add a second difficulty "ladder" in addition to the normal difficulty setting.

I really don't know about these.

- GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS gives new options to Great Generals. It adds new features that do not seem very controversial, why shouldn't it be on by default? If it doesn't work well, should be off and invisible.

It IS a bit processing heavy. But also beloved. The option to turn it off needs to be visible. But personally I think it's so cool it should be defaulted to on.

- GAMEOPTION_CULTURALLY_LINKED_STARTS tries to put the distance between civs similar to the real world. Not sure why would anyone want this?

Not sure how well it works either. But some game maps benefit from it. And others want it to get similar culture civs next to each other to reflect some amount of natural cultural evolution. We try to model that differently but in a way it still fits.

- GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP adds some landmark texts on the map. IIRC it doesn't work correctly, if so, it should be invisible.

IIRC, there are some interesting hidden easter egg effects in this option but unfortunately, the labels themselves don't work too well and the random naming feature comes up with stuff that comes across as foreign to all languages.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY doesn't work well according to alberts2, so invisible.

Many have complained. My only complaint is not understanding what the difference is or is supposed to be.

- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD makes territory expansion take into account the geography. It's actually quite nice, I'd put it on by default (though still visible for those who don't like it).

I like it too but not everyone likes the way it works. So yeah.

- GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES allows working 3 tiles away as soon as they're inside the territory. Significantly alters game balance since this should only be possible with Metropolitan Administration; to make maintenance easier I'd put it invisible.

That is incorrect. It makes it possible to work the tiles within 3 spaces as soon as a particular level of culture has been achieved. Those spaces may have been accessed for a very long time before that point. I don't like the option being off because I would prefer to increase the meaningfulness and benefits of blasting the city with culture rather than decrease it. The alternative is to put the importance on technology, which I feel already has all of the significance among the 4 commerces that still desperately scream for something to balance the importance of each to the point that the best player would want to split up his incoming commerce between all 4. And that's the place where we begin to see which commerces have more value than others. Therefore, I feel this option further imbalances the game rather than helps to balance it.

- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CORPORATIONS change how corporations work. Don't know whether it should be on or off (never been up to that point in a game...), but should probably remain visible.

OFF OFF OFF OFF! And invisible would be my vote but I think some people don't like having to think about corporations much and this is just for them.

- GAMEOPTION_RELIGION_DECAY makes religions disappear from a city when there are too many. Seems fine as it is.

Many who would like the option don't like how it performs. Others still prefer to have it.

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIANS_ALWAYS_RAZE makes barbarians always raze. Seems fine as it is.

I could see turning this off and making it invisible. Why would anyone want barbs to always undercut themselves and be truly horrible to the players they have victories against?

- GAMEOPTION_UNITED_NATIONS allows UN and Apostolic Palace to be built even when Diplomatic victory is off (to allow resolutions). I'd recommend on by default and invisible.

I would not have a personal problem with that but I think some might.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ESPIONAGE unlocks new espionage options. Like GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY, if the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.

I don't see why anyone would want this off but to each his own I suppose. I don't care if the AI does or doesn't use it well... though it seems to do an OK job of it, if not as flawed as the Size Matters AI perhaps.

- GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS adds new resources to corporations. Again, never been up to that point in a game, so I don't really know if it should be on or off.

I don't understand why we'd ever want to turn this off. This doesn't seem like a necessary option to me. But I like corps. Not everyone does.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_NUKES unlocks new types of nukes. Same as before.

Definitely is a flawed option but just for the imagination's sake I play with it anyhow.

- GAMEOPTION_DIVINE_PROPHETS gives Great Prophet which are able to found a religion instead of founding a religion in a random city. Rather interesting, though it can be abused by keeping Great Prophets. Still, I'd put it on and visible by default.

There are many who would throw a fit about making it on by default. Thanks though.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes hard-fixed number of cities limit from civics. I'm not even sure there are still any such limits in civics, and this should be managed through unhappiness and maintenance, so I'd put it invisible (and off).

Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS disables fixed borders. Not sure why would anyone want that since if you don't want fixed borders, you just have to chose civics that don't put fixed borders... Recommend off and invisible.

I'm with you but I warn even discussing this topic is incendiary. Some want more solid fixed borders - others HATE fixed borders at all. This absolutely cannot be invisible.

- GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP disables experience loss when upgrading a unit. Should probably remain off and visible as it is.

Agreed. Given the reception it's received.

- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS removes the unit limit (not just on national units). This option significantly imbalances the game since it also allows infinite warlords, nobles, etc. so I'd put it off and invisible.

It does not any longer allow unlimited warlords and nobles etc... The tag that was supposed to make it more selective and allow some units, those that really were critical to game balance, to still be made limited has been fixed and should now be working. Therefore, this should probably be off and visible. If there are further units that NEED to be made limited, they can be addressed individually. Some are more debateable than others at which point discussion should be had. But I don't see ANY reason to limit most all of the cultural unit types. And since others do, they can have the option so it's not a change to the core.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS, GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS change how traits work in game. In my understanding traits are not balanced at all now, so GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS and GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS should be on to prevent traits altogether and all 4 invisible until fixed.

That's a very extreme view. Not all share it. I don't think traits are perfect but they aren't something I'd want to play without or even suggest others do. The imbalances come down to poor design on the traits themselves, to which we argued a lot over what the right approaches would be. I've never created what I think would be a good trait set. Someone still needs to do it right imo. But it's not cause enough to turn all traits off. By any means. The imbalances aren't THAT severe.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_NUKES disables nukes from the game. Good as it is.

Yeah. It was a trait I wouldn't play with but would make for those whom I could understand their position on.

- GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS changes city limits based on map size. Like GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES, I'm guessing it significantly imbalances the game and will make it hard to balance the game properly with this option, so should be off and invisible.

I still don't understand city limits so any way to remove those limits outside of making it always cost more to have more cities is my vote.

- GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING prevents cumulative bonuses from having several religions and building several monasteries for example. The tooltip says it's in beta, but it seems to work fine; if it's indeed working, I'd put activate it by default and make it invisible to make balancing and maintenance easier (assuming that players don't use this kind of abuse), if it's not, then off and invisible by default.

It's working. It's just that it was pointed out it should be adjusted to accomodate further options. And it was in beta. And I don't like it myself. Again... it was an option made for those whining about things I don't have a problem with.

- GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS increases building and unit costs. Different game experience I guess; could probably be removed at some point if the buildings and unit costs are reviewed, but until then, the option should probably remain off and visible.

No... it's probably now completely out of whack to what it was intended to be. If it were to be kept in the game, the intention should be edited to match the new file sets it introduces replacements for. At the moment, I suggest it be turned off and invisible until someone does a thorough review of how it works in comparison to the core. The core was changed and nobody ever updated this option to reflect a continuation of an adaptation of those changes. I do think some that are clamoring for this sort of thing would benefit a great deal by taking on that project and getting it back working properly again though.

- GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS both unlock new combat possibilities. I know many players don't like it, so it should remain visible even if it significantly alters the game balance. Not sure whether it should be on by default.

Given the strength of the opinions against these options, they should be off by default and visible.

- GAMEOPTION_XP_FROM_ASSIGNED_SPECIALISTS gives xp to units from specialists in the city. Quite sure that's not balanced, so I'd turn it off and invisible.

No... off and visible. The fundamental disagreement here is whether there should be more or less xp available to units. That's a player opinion matter. I feel there's balance with this option on as I play it. I'd like to improve the AI for it a bit though. And at this point I'd probably take the xp off of citizens BECAUSE the civilian units often have stiffer limits to how many promos they can actually take in their professions than they did when the option was created. And so far in play I think that's been a good thing. So Civilians don't really need this boost any more and it makes it more clear what the uselessness of a Civilian really is to the AI.

- GAMEOPTION_MORE_XP_TO_LEVEL increase amount of xp needed to level up. Fine as it is.

Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE increases the difficulty. I believe there are far too many difficulty levels that change too many things to properly manage game balance; even in Nightmare mode the lowest difficulty settings aren't that challenging, so I'd put it on and invisible.

Oh god no please no... I would not want to play under nightmare mode. There is more than just difficulty being ramped up in some places. And I find core Deity still accomplishes the goal of being ridiculously difficult without needing to engage the game on Nightmare.

- GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS_UNCUT cancels the strength and hp change from SizeMatters. I'm not sure why this isn't part of the base Size Matters component; anyway I think it should be invisible (whether on or off) to avoid confusion.

There would not be a problem if a player set this and didn't set Size Matters... this option will enforce it. I personally hate this option but for those who feel that the core game unit strengths should be unaltered by size matters game play, I included it. As a Size Matters WITHOUT Fight or Flight, the strategic balance is a bit better. Size Matters was made to assume that some unit power would not always be a matter of strength as a result of Fight or Flight being on.

If we were to restructure to remove the need to make it visible, I'd say we could make Size Matters Uncut invisible and turn it on in the game setup portion of the code only if Fight or Flight is off. But then some opinions have surfaced that suggest that even with Fight or Flight on there should be a more Uncut Size Matters environment, to which I don't think is wise. Scouts and Hunters are supposed to weaken in strength but gain mastery of new skills that Fight or Flight introduces. I don't even feel Fight or Flight is properly balanced alone without Size Matters tbh.

Anyhow, this is all just my take on things. For what its worth.

JosEPh_II · May 30, 2015

- GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION deactivates the Revolution component and is activated by default.

Not sure where you are getting that this is activated by default. Rev is On unless you check the box for No Rev. And if this was ever made that REV was always ON and hidden I would stop playing C2C. I absolutely "dislike" REV and will Not play with it On in my personal games (was forced to in one of the MP games

)

:
- GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER prevents tiles around a city to be culture-converted. It's activated by default, which seems reasonable; I'd say this could go invisible to reduce maintenance (I don't think it has a deep enough impact on the game to be worth taking space in the main screen).

Click to expand...

I really hate this option. I'm with Joe on this one. Absolutely destroys some good old fashioned strategies from vanilla days and diminishes the value of culture by a tremendous amount.

One of the few that T-brd and I see eye to eye on. This was made by 45* for AND but was adopted into C2C because inexperienced players cried boohoo if they had a tile in their Main 9 flip because of culture. I at 1st did not understand what it did till I had a discussion over it with 45*. I Never activate it anymore. Culture needs more boosting not having it's legs cut off. And if you neglect your culture you deserve to have your cities tiles flip to an adjacent AI who is taking culture seriously. It could dissappear from the Mod and I would never ever miss it.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES removes the possibility of vassal states. It removes an important feature of the game, so I'd put it invisible.

NO Way! It's one of the Worst Options because the whole concept of vassals is badly implemented even in vanilla BtS. I turn this On for every game I play.

- GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES allows working 3 tiles away as soon as they're inside the territory. Significantly alters game balance since this should only be possible with Metropolitan Administration; to make maintenance easier I'd put it invisible.

Completely disagree I Use this Option Instead of Metro Admin. The whole Admin line of bldgs do not set well with me. And getting to that 3rd ring should be a function of Culture not some Bldg.

- GAMEOPTION_SAD activates surround and destroy. IIRC it creates some performance and AI issues, so it might be worth putting it invisible to let only aware people using it?

I don't use this anymore since Afforess it's author said it was not working right. (And so to did koshling) Afforess did some work on it recently for AND but I don't think that has been incorporated into C2C. So I still consider it Broken and should Not be used.

- GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION allows players to pick any religion when founding one. Given how different the religions are, this might imbalance the game and lead to bad situations (if you select a non-missionary religion long before actually getting missionaries for example) so I'd suggest putting it invisible to only let players that know what doing selecting it.

This is another Bad Option. It goes contrary to DH's Religion founding and the effort put into placement in the Tech tree of the different religions. It's a cheat IMPO. I'd love to see this one go bye-bye!

- GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC removes the zones of control mechanism. Even the tooltip advises to deactivate it, so it should be invisible.

ZOC doesn't work right. So NO ZOC should be ON by default. Are we saying the same thing here?

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes hard-fixed number of cities limit from civics. I'm not even sure there are still any such limits in civics, and this should be managed through unhappiness and maintenance, so I'd put it invisible (and off).
- GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS disables fixed borders. Not sure why would anyone want that since if you don't want fixed borders, you just have to chose civics that don't put fixed borders... Recommend off and invisible.

You have no idea how long I had to fight to keep these 2 options from disappearing. I always turn Both ON. I have argued for years with koshling and others that City Limits was a redundant idea that added unnecessary coding and options to the game. Same with Fixed borders when Afforess made it. It again negates culture because ppl didn't want to maintain a good level of culture to keep their borders from shifting inward. I wish Both these Bad ideas (city Limits and Fixed Borders) would be permanently Removed from C2C. They wanted to make city limits and fixed border integral parts of the mod, not Options. I fought tooth and nail to keep these 2 Options from disappearing. Remove the concepts from the game of city Limits and Fixed Borders and The these 2 options will no longer be necessary.

- GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS changes city limits based on map size. Like GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES, I'm guessing it significantly imbalances the game and will make it hard to balance the game properly with this option, so should be off and invisible.

ls612 made Scale City Limits as a compromise to help give a middle ground to those that hated City Limits. If City Limits are Removed there is no need for Scale City Limits. The City Limits proponents had the limits set very restrictive in the gov't Civics at that time. All in the Name of curbing expansion by either player or AI. When the real culprits were increased gamespeeds and larger map sizes. I never play with any of these 3 active.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS, GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS change how traits work in game. In my understanding traits are not balanced at all now, so GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS and GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS should be on to prevent traits altogether and all 4 invisible until fixed.

The Only Option in this set that has Any semblence of Balance is ls612's. The rest are the whims of a Deity Player who went overboard. Or the efforts of others to mitigate those raving whims with limited results. As T-Brd said Traits need to be overhauled. I go further and say they should be set back to BtS defaults. I don't use or recommend any of them except ls612's. But there will be those that will squack if they are removed. Bad can of worms.

- GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE increases the difficulty. I believe there are far too many difficulty levels that change too many things to properly manage game balance; even in Nightmare mode the lowest difficulty settings aren't that challenging, so I'd put it on and invisible.

Totally and complete agree with T-brd on this one too. Nightmare (SO's brain child) was supposed to be a Modmod but was prematurely made an Option before it had sufficient testing. And BG's untested maint changes, that alberts2 recently reversed because they created more problems than they solved) were also added to it at that time. It's still a mess IMPO.

There are others I have comments on but it's late and I'm tired.

JosEPh

Arakhor · May 30, 2015

I definitely agree with keeping BarbarianCiv off, as it hinders the AI and contributes to a massive bloat in turn calculations. Advanced Economy and Realistic Corporations are either broken or massive resource hogs, as are storms.

Keep Nightmare off. If at any point, people want it on by default, scrap the option and build it into the game. It's pointless having an option that does otherwise.

Toffer90 · May 30, 2015

-Increasing Difficult Game-Option:

Thunderbrd said:
The problem I have here is that there's also a set of options to control and turn it on and off in the bug options and I can never seem to figure out if its even necessary to have this option in the game option list.

There are no options in the bug menu that alters this game option. It makes the minimum game difficulty for the player increase every X turn (game-speed determined)
which leaves less and less room for flexible difficulty (an independent option only found in BUG menu.) to work within until the player is locked at deity around late ancient era.

-I always play with this option on and start the game at warlord-prince.
-I also allow the AI to use flexible difficulty from Settler-Noble so:

I, the player, eventually get locked at Deity difficulty.
The AI with the highest score are at Noble difficulty.
The AI with the lowest score are at Settler difficulty.

Thunderbrd said:
I still don't understand city limits so any way to remove those limits outside of making it always cost more to have more cities is my vote.

I rather like the concept of increasing unhappiness by settling cities above a certain limit.

Faustmouse · May 30, 2015

I didn't like realistic corps either. Maybe they are broken, maybe not; but IMO you have no influence if they appear or disappear in your cities, even if you have all resources they want...

Modern Corporations can be on be default and invis I guess; after all, they only add a few more corporations and they aren't any worse than all those additional buildings.

Advanced Economy is broken.

Nightmare, IIRC, only adds 2 levels of difficulty. So if you play prince + nightmare you basically play emperor. I think it's said that you should play C2C 2 levels above your vanilla skills anyways, so why not leave it on and hidden, so that you can play the same difficulty level as vanilla?

Edit: The increasing difficulty option is redundant. In the Bug menu, you can even set your difficulty level to a specific one whilst in play.

Same goes for alliances, vasalls, tech trading and brokering and choosing religions.

Arakhor · May 30, 2015

Faustmouse said:
Nightmare, IIRC, only adds 2 levels of difficulty. So if you play prince + nightmare you basically play emperor. I think it's said that you should play C2C 2 levels above your vanilla skills anyways, so why not leave it on and hidden, so that you can play the same difficulty level as vanilla?

As opposed to simply altering the default difficulty levels and calling it a day?

Noriad2 · May 30, 2015

I agree that setting a difficulty level and then basically add another difficulty level by turning on nightmare mode is weird. Since C2C is a bit easier than vanilla BTS (although the difference is getting smaller) I think nightmare mode should be always on.

Also, I personally dislike city limits from civics and have it off always. Expansion is already limited in the beginning by the financial strain caused by having multiple cities.

strategyonly · May 30, 2015

I made Nightmare mode 2 levels above normal BtS in EACH difficulty level. Meaning Noble in Nightmare mode is actually Monarch Level etc etc . .and yes the Maint costs are changed here, but it works a lot better, only thing is the AI has a hard time with it, but it keeps the gold down at least and under the current BACK change that was made its waaay to easy now to get gold from the get go, I don't like this now . . but the AI is smarter for some reason . . .

And Joe is correct on the No-Rev, it is ON by default, a lot of us just read it and think its off but the NO infront means just that NO Revolutions are off if and only when you check mark it there.

Yudishtira · May 30, 2015

There are too many invisible options already. The only possibly valid reason for an option being made invisible is because it is buggy and being worked on. There is no way of knowing that no-one uses any given option. We who post here are a tiny minority of those enjoying this mod.

Lots of options can't be balanced for. In some cases they can't be "supported" due to lack of expertise/familiarity. That's no reason to remove them. They just need to be listed in the/an FAQ.

Faustmouse · May 30, 2015

Now reading through TB's comments I take a go myself:

Note that my last game was several months ago and things might have changed. So you can basically add a "last time I played..." before 90% of my statements

Rwn said:
- GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION deactivates the Revolution component and is activated by default. Why is that? If it's broken (it seemed to work fine in my game, but maybe the AI has difficulties with it?), it should go invisible until it's fixed, otherwise it should be off by default, Revolution is a nice feature.
It is a nice additional effect, but I only had trouble with it once, when I completely ignored crime. My empire fall apart and it was actually quite fun. BUt beside from that it never bothers me (on deity). It only cripples the AI IMO...

- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIAN_CIV prevents barbarian from spawning civilizations and is activated by default. If that's because it doesn't work well, it should be put invisible...
I think those barbarian civs never make it to a point where they are more than city state barbarians that you can talk to. Unless small empires become more competetive, this is a useless option.

- GAMEOPTION_MIN_CITY_BORDER prevents tiles around a city to be culture-converted. It's activated by default, which seems reasonable; I'd say this could go invisible to reduce maintenance (I don't think it has a deep enough impact on the game to be worth taking space in the main screen).
As TB said...

- GAMEOPTION_MORE_RIVERS and GAMEOPTION_MORE_RESOURCES create more rivers and resources and are activated by default. They do have a moderate impact on the gameplay commerce:, fresh water, trade network, resource competition...), the question is, should they be put invisible to reduce maintenance (and assume the player uses them when balancing the game; if a player deactivates them, that's up to him). I'd say yes but not completely convinced.
If you play on higher difficulties, this is actually a nice option to make it even harder.

- I believe GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_START doesn't work at the moment, so it should be put invisible.
This would need some work on it to be balanced for later era starts. OFF and Invis IMO.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_RAZING forbids city razing. Some players might like it, it doesn't really alter the balance, so I'd say it's good as it is.
Yeah, keep it.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING forbids city culture flipping. Given how difficult it is to see it happening, I'm not sure why one would want to activate that, so I'd put it invisible. Never seen a city flipping since years... Off and invis until city flipping gets a bit rebalanced.

- GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST gives a chance to a city to return to its previous owner. Never used it, so I don't know how it works in pratice.
If flipping is properly balanced this option shouldn't be needed anyways. On and Invis.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_BARBARIANS removes a key element of the game as (IIRC) it'd also remove animals. This should be invisible to avoid confusing people into thinking it simply removes the wandering Neanderthalian.
If it only affects humanoid barbs than it should stay as it is; if it removes animals as well I'd add a building only to that option "Nature's secrets"or something that gives roughly as much as you had in a normal game from stories, and modify Hunting Instructions so that it gives and instead. They can be increased with techs that would provide new hunting units. Or off and invis since it imbalances the mod quite a bit.

- GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS spawns more barbarians. Problem is, it also spawns a lot more animals and makes the game actually easier in my experience. I'd say this one should also be invisible to avoid confusion on what it does.
Indeed. If animals and barbs are seperated than it can stay (or make two options: Raging Barbs and more animals.)

- GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI makes the AI more agressive. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible.
Yeah, it should be hidden.

- GAMEOPTION_LEAD_ANY_CIV allows any combination of leader and civ, mainly for traits. Probably not very useful if traits are deactivated (see below), so should probably be off (for immersion) and invisible by default.
Not a very gae changing option but I can see it's uses.

- GAMEOPTION_RANDOM_PERSONALITIES randomizes the AI's behavior. Seems fine like it is.
As above.

- GAMEOPTION_PICK_RELIGION allows players to pick any religion when founding one. Given how different the religions are, this might imbalance the game and lead to bad situations (if you select a non-missionary religion long before actually getting missionaries for example) so I'd suggest putting it invisible to only let players that know what doing selecting it.
I agree with you here. However, we do have a pick religions BUG option...

- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_TRADING and GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_BROKERING prevent or limit tech trading with/between AIs. Fine as it is.
Technically redundant due BUG options. Yet easier to find there. Maybe we need a small tool-tip that encourages players using BUG? (also, BUG may confuse players and they think these options are "buggy".)

- GAMEOPTION_PERMANENT_ALLIANCES allows the creation of permanent alliances. Not sure if anyone would like to play with it with AIs, but I guess it's at least useful in MP.
I like it. AI never seems to make alliances with each other, but you can make it a goal to get an AI into an alliance with you. However, this is redundant as you can adjust it as BUG option. (Also, I also like OCC. But I think the majority of players won't miss this option so you can off and invis it.)

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE enforces permanent war and peace. Not something you want in a C2C game, so should be invisible.
Not suited for C2C.

- GAMEOPTION_COMPLETE_KILLS requires to kill units in addition to invading cities to wipe out a civ. I'd actually activate it and put it invisible, I don't really see the harm in activating it (and deactivating it prevents a civ from reconquering a city with its remaining units...). I had wars where I rushed to destroy the last city while a HUGE stack came towards my empire. But in general I'd consider a civ with no cities left dead so I don't mind this option at all.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES removes the possibility of vassal states. It removes an important feature of the game, so I'd put it invisible.
Also redundant.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_EVENTS removes events. Fine as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE removes espionage. I'd suggest putting it in invisible to reduce maintenance; I'm pretty sure noone is playing C2C with this on anyway.
hmm...

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_WORLD creates 1 barbarian civ per player at game start. IIRC they tend to make things harder for AIs as well as allowing a second city before tribalism if you conquer one, so I'd recommend making it invisible (and off).
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_LIMITED_RELIGIONS prevents a player from founding a religion if he has already a holy city. Not sure the option is really useful (there's already GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING to prevent abuses) so it could probably be invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_INQUISITIONS prevents purging non-state religions. Seems fine.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_TECH_DIFFUSION prevents tech diffusion to other less advanced civs. Some players don't like it, so it looks fine as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_START_AS_MINORS makes everyone start at war. IIRC the AIs behave badly with it, so should be invisible until fixed.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_MOUNTAINS allows using mountains (under certain conditions). I don't really see why anyone wouldn't want that, so it should be on by default and invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_SAD activates surround and destroy. IIRC it creates some performance and AI issues, so it might be worth putting it invisible to let only aware people using it?
I know it's a benefit over the AI but I like it anyways...

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY adds new diplomatic options. If the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.
It works I think...

- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_WONDERS removes the wonder limit per city. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIAN_GENERALS allows barbarian to get generals. Seems fine as it is (off and visible).
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_ZOC removes the zones of control mechanism. Even the tooltip advises to deactivate it, so it should be invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_CUT_LOSERS regularly kills the weakest civ until there are 5 left. I wouldn't play with that, but maybe other like it (and it might help with late-game performance with lots of starting civs), so it could remain visible.
IIRC there is a bug option for that too.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_HIGH_TO_LOW makes you switch to the lowest-score civ when you reach the highest score. Sounds really like an odd way of playing the game so I'd assume it's very rarely used and would put it invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY increases the game difficulty along the game. I don't really understand why one would want to play with that (if you want a more difficult game, just select a higher difficulty from the start?), so I'd say this could go invisible.
Agreed, also redundant.

- GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI makes the AIs even more agressive than GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI. Does it work correctly? If so, should remain visible, if not, invisible. In any case, I'd recommend keeping at most one visible between GAMEOPTION_RUTHLESS_AI and GAMEOPTION_AGGRESSIVE_AI, no need to add a second difficulty "ladder" in addition to the normal difficulty setting.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_GREAT_COMMANDERS gives new options to Great Generals. It adds new features that do not seem very controversial, why shouldn't it be on by default? If it doesn't work well, should be off and invisible.
Greatly influences balance! Should stay as it is.

- GAMEOPTION_CULTURALLY_LINKED_STARTS tries to put the distance between civs similar to the real world. Not sure why would anyone want this?
For more historical immersion maybe?

- GAMEOPTION_PERSONALIZED_MAP adds some landmark texts on the map. IIRC it doesn't work correctly, if so, it should be invisible.
If broken: invis it!.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ECONOMY doesn't work well according to alberts2, so invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CULTURE_SPREAD makes territory expansion take into account the geography. It's actually quite nice, I'd put it on by default (though still visible for those who don't like it).
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES allows working 3 tiles away as soon as they're inside the territory. Significantly alters game balance since this should only be possible with Metropolitan Administration; to make maintenance easier I'd put it invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_REALISTIC_CORPORATIONS change how corporations work. Don't know whether it should be on or off (never been up to that point in a game...), but should probably remain visible.
As I said: I think it's purely annoying.

- GAMEOPTION_RELIGION_DECAY makes religions disappear from a city when there are too many. Seems fine as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_BARBARIANS_ALWAYS_RAZE makes barbarians always raze. Seems fine as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_UNITED_NATIONS allows UN and Apostolic Palace to be built even when Diplomatic victory is off (to allow resolutions). I'd recommend on by default and invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_ESPIONAGE unlocks new espionage options. Like GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_DIPLOMACY, if the AI manages it correctly, should be on by default, otherwise off and invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_MODERN_CORPORATIONS adds new resources to corporations. Again, never been up to that point in a game, so I don't really know if it should be on or off.
As I said: not much of a change.

- GAMEOPTION_ADVANCED_NUKES unlocks new types of nukes. Same as before.
I think they are broken?.

- GAMEOPTION_DIVINE_PROPHETS gives Great Prophet which are able to found a religion instead of founding a religion in a random city. Rather interesting, though it can be abused by keeping Great Prophets. Still, I'd put it on and visible by default.
Agreed. Maybe this should be a unit that founds the religion?

- GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_LIMITS removes hard-fixed number of cities limit from civics. I'm not even sure there are still any such limits in civics, and this should be managed through unhappiness and maintenance, so I'd put it invisible (and off).
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_FIXED_BORDERS disables fixed borders. Not sure why would anyone want that since if you don't want fixed borders, you just have to chose civics that don't put fixed borders... Recommend off and invisible.
The AI uses them still, right?

- GAMEOPTION_INFINITE_XP disables experience loss when upgrading a unit. Should probably remain off and visible as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_UNLIMITED_NATIONAL_UNITS removes the unit limit (not just on national units). This option significantly imbalances the game since it also allows infinite warlords, nobles, etc. so I'd put it off and invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_PURE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LEADERHEAD_LEVELUPS, GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS, GAMEOPTION_LS612_TRAITS change how traits work in game. In my understanding traits are not balanced at all now, so GAMEOPTION_NO_NEGATIVE_TRAITS and GAMEOPTION_START_NO_POSITIVE_TRAITS should be on to prevent traits altogether and all 4 invisible until fixed.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NO_NUKES disables nukes from the game. Good as it is.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS changes city limits based on map size. Like GAMEOPTION_LARGER_CITIES, I'm guessing it significantly imbalances the game and will make it hard to balance the game properly with this option, so should be off and invisible.
Agreed. The limits are so high that it's virtually unlimited.

- GAMEOPTION_RELIGIOUS_DISABLING prevents cumulative bonuses from having several religions and building several monasteries for example. The tooltip says it's in beta, but it seems to work fine; if it's indeed working, I'd put activate it by default and make it invisible to make balancing and maintenance easier (assuming that players don't use this kind of abuse), if it's not, then off and invisible by default.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_UPSCALED_BUILDING_AND_UNIT_COSTS increases building and unit costs. Different game experience I guess; could probably be removed at some point if the buildings and unit costs are reviewed, but until then, the option should probably remain off and visible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_FIGHT_OR_FLIGHT and GAMEOPTION_SIZE_MATTERS both unlock new combat possibilities. I know many players don't like it, so it should remain visible even if it significantly alters the game balance. Not sure whether it should be on by default.
I'd acutally say visibile and on by default.

- GAMEOPTION_XP_FROM_ASSIGNED_SPECIALISTS gives xp to units from specialists in the city. Quite sure that's not balanced, so I'd turn it off and invisible.
Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_MORE_XP_TO_LEVEL increase amount of xp needed to level up. Fine as it is.Agreed.

- GAMEOPTION_NIGHTMARE_MODE increases the difficulty. I believe there are far too many difficulty levels that change too many things to properly manage game balance; even in Nightmare mode the lowest difficulty settings aren't that challenging, so I'd put it on and invisible.
See my other post.

Arakhor · May 30, 2015

Unless Fight or Flight and Size Matters actually work properly for players and AI, it should never be hard-wired into the game. (This goes for any mechanic, really.)

Rwn · May 30, 2015

Thanks for all the valuable input, there are definitely some very valid points. I'll try to have an updated summary in a separate post.

Yudishtira said:
There are too many invisible options already. The only possibly valid reason for an option being made invisible is because it is buggy and being worked on.

I don't agree here. If an option is bugged or broken, it shouldn't be visible, even if noone is working on it at the moment. Same if an option goes against the general "philosophy" of C2C. 71 options at game start that can be tweaked in any way by players (not even counting BUG options) is far too much.

An important point to remember: invisible options are not removed options. If a player really wants one, it's possible to go into the GameOption file and switch it. Granted, it's not as convenient as checking the box in the game menu, but that precisely the point: invisible options should not be tweaked except by informed and aware players (and it wouldn't be harder than having to read a FAQ to know which option is working and which is not - it could even be mentioned in a detailed comment in the GameOption file for convenience!).

Keeping every option around sure allows more game customization (and removing options disappoint those who liked it - hence the idea to make them invisible, not remove them), but at the price of increased mod maintenance complexity - and mod development should not have to take into account each of the combination of the 71 options! Just for one example based on my own experience, I've been complaining that the AI was very weak, one of the reason was that I always selected what seemed attractive options (such as Minor Civs) without knowing that they were broken - that gives a wrong feedback to modders who don't know that this option is causing the problem (and even if they do, they have to spend time investingating whether I had this option or not).

So, yeah, ultimately I guess that there will be disagreements, people strongly attached to this or that option that goes invisible, but I really think that's a necessary step towards lowering mod maintenance and making adding balanced new features easier - again, die-hard fans of a given option will have the opportunity to switch it in the file, the message is just that this option is not actively maintained (not that it was before, it was just not obvious).

Rwn · May 30, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
Not sure where you are getting that this is activated by default. Rev is On unless you check the box for No Rev. And if this was ever made that REV was always ON and hidden I would stop playing C2C. I absolutely "dislike" REV and will Not play with it On in my personal games (was forced to in one of the MP games )

strategyonly said:
And Joe is correct on the No-Rev, it is ON by default, a lot of us just read it and think its off but the NO infront means just that NO Revolutions are off if and only when you check mark it there.

Yeah, the activating a "NO_FEATURE" option is confusing, so to make things clearer, currently, GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTION is ACTIVATED by default (check the GameOptions file in the last SVN), meaning that Revolution is DEACTIVATED by default.

Thunderbrd · May 30, 2015

Rwn said:
Thanks for all the valuable input, there are definitely some very valid points. I'll try to have an updated summary in a separate post.

I don't agree here. If an option is bugged or broken, it shouldn't be visible, even if noone is working on it at the moment. Same if an option goes against the general "philosophy" of C2C. 71 options at game start that can be tweaked in any way by players (not even counting BUG options) is far too much.

An important point to remember: invisible options are not removed options. If a player really wants one, it's possible to go into the GameOption file and switch it. Granted, it's not as convenient as checking the box in the game menu, but that precisely the point: invisible options should not be tweaked except by informed and aware players (and it wouldn't be harder than having to read a FAQ to know which option is working and which is not - it could even be mentioned in a detailed comment in the GameOption file for convenience!).

Keeping every option around sure allows more game customization (and removing options disappoint those who liked it - hence the idea to make them invisible, not remove them), but at the price of increased mod maintenance complexity - and mod development should not have to take into account each of the combination of the 71 options! Just for one example based on my own experience, I've been complaining that the AI was very weak, one of the reason was that I always selected what seemed attractive options (such as Minor Civs) without knowing that they were broken - that gives a wrong feedback to modders who don't know that this option is causing the problem (and even if they do, they have to spend time investingating whether I had this option or not).

So, yeah, ultimately I guess that there will be disagreements, people strongly attached to this or that option that goes invisible, but I really think that's a necessary step towards lowering mod maintenance and making adding balanced new features easier - again, die-hard fans of a given option will have the opportunity to switch it in the file, the message is just that this option is not actively maintained (not that it was before, it was just not obvious).

See... I appreciate your thinking here and I get it. Problem is that you assume that informed players who know about options well enough to know the consequences of adjusting them in the way they would prefer to play would also be informed or find it easy to go into the xml or world builder to set their options up they way they like. I think there's a very very very wide division there. I'm sure this perception comes from being a tech savvy modder yourself (and probably from a younger generation that finds working with computers to be second nature) but I would guess that 99.9999999999% of people would be too intimidated to enter xml files and tweak with anything no matter how greatly they've mastered mod play, and would instead just get angry that an option was taken from them.

Go too far and you're going to alienate more players or even potential players than you are going to make things more inviting and simpler.

Rwn · May 30, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
See... I appreciate your thinking here and I get it. Problem is that you assume that informed players who know about options well enough to know the consequences of adjusting them in the way they would prefer to play would also be informed or find it easy to go into the xml or world builder to set their options up they way they like.

Not exactly - I assume that the players who can make informed decisions about choosing a broken or bugged or obvious or otherwise unneeded options will be able to go into xml file to tweak it. For the others, as you say those that don't know well enough the options and their consequences, it's precisely the goal to remove the unneeded options from "plain view", to avoid letting them believe that those options are well supported and interesting to the game.

It's interesting you qualify me as tech savvy, because even that did not prevent me from unknowingly chosing bad options (and figuring out after many turns that they made the game experience very unfun because there was nothing to tell me otherwise) that I'd rather have not seen on the game option menu... Even just now in this topic I learned many new things I didn't know about options that should or should not be chosen... I believe reading in participating in C2C forums should not be expected from players to have them chose a good set of options (and if there are 30 options left, that's still quite a lot to figure out).

After thinking a bit more about it, maybe a more consensual solution would be to keep more options visible, but clearly mention in their name that show up in the menu something like "BETA - Option X" or "UNSUPPORTED - Option Y" and keep them at the end of the option list. So players would not select them inadvertantly, but they'd still show in the game menu so no need to go in the xml file.

JosEPh_II · May 30, 2015

Koshling warned that one day Options would come back and bite us in the ...posterior. At the time I didn't agree.

In your next step Rwn you might consider taken a group of Options say 7-10 and post specifically about that group. Gather feedback and then post your findings. Maybe even a Poll of some sorts so that the casual forum viewer can post a simple yea or nay for the Options choices, or something similar. Obviously this small vocal group that has responded may represent some of the better informed but should not be weighted too heavily in the decision process. (Yes the informed group does carry weight but not to the point of tyranny, if you get what I mean.) I've been the lone wolf/black sheep/Mr. No No for a long time and I caused several of the Options to be made Options instead of core features (sometimes alone sometimes with a few supporters).

I do very much agree with you though that the time has come for some reform/revision. Broken Options, like Adv Econ for example, definitely need attention thru turning them off and/or hiding/removing until fixed.

One last note; there is something about the Options alignment/list that if an Option is removed causes some major rework with some Enum IDs iirc. DH would know what I'm referring to.

Be warned though, you have entered Dangerous Waters and I hope your skin is thick but your reasoning sound and your intent clear.

Edit: If you only succeed in reducing the list of 71 Options to 60 that would still be a major accomplishment impo.

JosEPh

Arakhor · May 30, 2015

Even just renaming and relocating the troublesome ones as Rwn suggests would be useful.

Game options review

King

C2C Modder

King

C2C War Dog

TBS WarLord

Dremora Courtier

C2C Modder

Deity

Dremora Courtier

Emperor

C2C Supreme Commander

Spiritual/Creative

Deity

Dremora Courtier

King

King

C2C War Dog

King

TBS WarLord

Dremora Courtier

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