Gaza Beach Shelling

[boarder]

So difference is in "when this happened" and "numbers killed"?

Sorry, but I think this is funny and sad simultaneously. First, countries like UK, should be grateful this isn't happening to them today.
And second, just look at fight over Folkland islands. British cities WEREN'T EVEN BOMBED.

No that was just a small example and a overview, but enough imo for someone to notice a difference to the two situations, ww2 and Israel, I really cant see how you cant tell them apart.

 

[Leha]

You do realise that Israel relies on America for billions of dollars every year, and without this, well the state of Israel probably wouldnt exist, if they just started shelling wildly into citys then it would/could lose all this money, even with the powerful jewish lobby in America. You dont think this may have anything to do with the fact Israel cant just go as rogue as they want.

Now now, you are buying this myth?

Israel is getting about 3 billion help, 2/3 of which go for army support because of our "friends" that just won't stop killing us. When people bring this argument I always wonder: "do they know about cost of intelligence data americans get from Israel? Do they know the cost of funds US saving having Israel as ally in ME?"
Did you happen to think about it, Boarder?

 

[boarder]

You forgot to add "fake" reality.

So your inferring that all attacks where Palestinian civilians where killed are "fake reality".

Actually it's a pity we behave decently and don't indulge in dirty games of palestinian media. Propaganda is powerful weapon.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Israel is a decent nation that doesnt use propoganda, how blind can one be.

Real arguments would be nice your just being silly now.

 

[Leha]

No that was just a small example and a overview, but enough imo for someone to notice a difference to the two situations, ww2 and Israel, I really cant see how you cant tell them apart.

I'm sorry, I don't see difference between UK being bombed by German bombers and Israel being bombed by Gaza missiles. If you can explain me essentials I promise to think them over.

 

[Leha]

So your inferring that all attacks where Palestinian civilians where killed are "fake reality".

I'm referring to current accident, which you hastely called masssacre and terrorism. Then I explained why IDF is shelling uninhabited territories. As I understood from you posts you don't think it is proper response to palestinian missiles. Right?
I'd like to hear your opinion what would be proper response.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Israel is a decent nation that doesnt use propoganda, how blind can one be.
Real arguments would be nice your just being silly now.

Propoganda of this kind? No. We respect our human nature and don't stage our deaths to justify killing of palestinians. If you read my posts closer then maybe there will be less rolleyes.

 

[boarder]

Now now, you are buing this myth?

Israel is getting about 3 billion help, 2/3 of which go for army support because of our "friends" that just won't stop killing us. When people bring this argument I always wonder: "do they know about cost of intelligence data americans get from Israel? Do they know the cost of funds US saving having Israel as ally in ME?"
Did you happen to think about it, Boarder?

Actually the sums are a lot higher like this
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#Taxpayer
For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million.)

So about 10 billion in 1997, a lot more now. And not 3 billion like you said.
So yes i have thought about it unlike yourself if you think that it is only 3 billion.

 

[boarder]

I'm referring to current accident, which you hastely called masssacre and terrorism. Then I explained why IDF is shelling uninhabited territories. As I understood from you posts you don't think it is proper response to palestinian missiles. Right?
I'd like to hear your opinion what would be proper response..

I dont know im no military expert on location of quassam rocket firings, but hey wipeing out a family on the beach having a barbie isnt really the best plan to stop them (sarasm)

Propoganda of this kind? No. We respect our human nature and don't stage our deaths to justify killing of palestinians. If you read my posts closer then maybe there will be less rolleyes.

I did read your post thats why i rolled my eyes.

 

[Leha]

Actually the sums are a lot higher like this
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#Taxpayer
For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million.)

So about 10 billion in 1997, a lot more now. And not 3 billion like you said.
So yes i have thought about it unlike yourself if you think that it is only 3 billion.

So you want to say we have this 3 billions US should pay in taxes? Is that a joke? Did you read this article? It is about what Israel costs to US brutto, not about what Israel gets! Did you notice some of aid is private?
Military aid! Don't make me laugh. When we get money for military aid we are obliged to buy american weapons. So they take their money back.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

As you can see we get less than 3 bln from US government.

 

[Leha]

I dont know im no military expert on location of quassam rocket firings, but hey wipeing out a family on the beach having a barbie isnt really the best plan to stop them (sarasm)

I'm going to ignore that, because I have a feeling I'm talking to a wall

I did read your post thats why i rolled my eyes.

Instead of rolling your eyes it would be nice to see some examples, some sources instead of general abracadabra.
Just for a change

 

[blackheart]

SHOCK AND AWE
It wasn't IDF shell in the end. Most probably stray Qasam. It is not for a first time that PA authorities-terrorists kill it's own citisens, blame bloody zionists and start bombing their cities and killind their children.
Isn't it a great way to demand peacefull solution!!

Link?

World's first and biggest mistake (concerning this region) was the very THOUGHT of a state for so called Palestinians.
It's absolutely absurd to think that if there wasn't Israel nearby - Palestinians would ever think of any state.
They have no distinctive history and they never had a "state of Palestine" - in contrast to Israel.
It was a very sly move to claim wanting a state - just to oppose Israel with this.
And I'm not joking.
And of course the world readily "agreed" to this since it's always a need of "equality" on the expense of Jews.

Spare us your moral high ground, bashing of Palestinians, and portraying Jews as helpless victims.

 

[blackheart]

Now now, you are buying this myth?

Israel is getting about 3 billion help, 2/3 of which go for army support because of our "friends" that just won't stop killing us. When people bring this argument I always wonder: "do they know about cost of intelligence data americans get from Israel? Do they know the cost of funds US saving having Israel as ally in ME?"
Did you happen to think about it, Boarder?

So what exactly is America geting from Israel i nterms of intelligence data and an ally in the ME, especially since a main cause of anger towards America is for supporting Israel?

 

[Leha]

Link?

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/

This one in russian:
http://www.mignews.com/news/scandals/world/120606_71047_04483.html

It says that Tzahal (IDF)after close investigation denies there was shell explosion in that area. Palestinian side denied cooperation in investigation ( ask yourself, why).

But of course you will not see loud debunking, noooowaaay.
As it was in case of Muhammed Al-Durrah - boy-symbol of the second intifada his staged death was wide-spread shock, but rebuttal was hardly known.

 

[Kozmos]

The Palestinians use dangerous weapons:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39292

 

[Leha]

So what exactly is America geting from Israel i nterms of intelligence data and an ally in the ME, especially since a main cause of anger towards America is for supporting Israel?

Intelligence data. Military and Hi-Tech research (!). Strategic ally in the area. Buyer of US military products.

And now, can you explain me what America is getting from Egypt for approximately same amount of money?

 

[blackheart]

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/
This one in russian:
http://www.mignews.com/news/scandals/world/120606_71047_04483.html

It says that Tzahal (IDF)after close investigation denies there was shell explosion in that area. Palestinian side denied cooperation in investigation ( ask yourself, why).

Sorry, you have to provide evidence from a major news source that is in English. As for the Palestinians not wanting to cooperate, I think the Palestinian authorities wouldn't even want to cooperate with the IDF in finding a child's missing piece of candy.

Intelligence data. Military and Hi-Tech research (!). Strategic ally in the area. Buyer of US military products.

Intelligence is anecdotal. Research and new technology is a tangible benefit indeed, but it highlights an American weakness in not researching it ourselves. The arms trade doesn't have anything to do directly with American taxpayer money.

And now, can you explain me what America is getting from Egypt for approximately same amount of money?

I don't know how much America is giving to Egypt, but probably for the same reasons as Israel is getting money.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

The Palestinians use dangerous weapons:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39292

Excellent! The Onion once again cuts to the bone.

 

[Leha]

Sorry, you have to provide evidence from a major news source that is in English. As for the Palestinians not wanting to cooperate, I think the Palestinian authorities wouldn't even want to cooperate with the IDF in finding a child's missing piece of candy..

Sorry, in that case it's up to palestinian authorities to prove people were killed by IDF shell.

Intelligence is anecdotal. Research and new technology is a tangible benefit indeed, but it highlights an American weakness in not researching it ourselves. The arms trade doesn't have anything to do directly with American taxpayer money.

Intel data is anecdotal?!?! Wow, you need to think it over again.
Arms trade gives working vacancies and ALOT of money.
You forgot strategic ally in the ME. I take you agree on that.

I don't know how much America is giving to Egypt, but probably for the same reasons as Israel is getting money.

Make some research. It is easy, really. And no, the reasons are not the same. But this is OT for this topic.

 

[blackheart]

Sorry, in that case it's up to palestinian authorities to prove people were killed by IDF shell.

Tell that to Hamas and the pissed off Palestinians.

Intel data is anecdotal?!?! Wow, you need to think it over again.
Arms trade gives working vacancies and ALOT of money.
You forgot strategic ally in the ME. I take you agree on that.

Intel data is anecdotal because I haven't read any reports on what is traded and what is useful. The government giving my tax moneys to another country so in turn they can use that money to buy things from an American company isn't very good justification for anything. And yes, Israel can prove to be a strategic ally in the ME, if we ever need it.

Make some research. It is easy, really. And no, the reasons are not the same. But this is OT for this topic.

$1.3 billion a yr and $850 million in economic aid. I don't see how the reasoning is any different, the government wants to gain friends by dishing out massive sums of money. Seems to work well. Of course, the merit of giving money to another government to do whatever they want is questionable.

 

[boarder]

I have a feeling I'm talking to a wall

lol I know the feeling, still what can one expect when one is blinded.
Open your eyes Leha, Israel and its policies is what is keeping this circle of violence continuing. (Yes and Palestine to they are as much to blame)
Good luck with that.

 

[Leha]

Tell that to Hamas and the pissed off Palestinians.

Investigation found, that family was killed by mine which was planted by Hamas to prevent unloading of israeli troops to the beach. Official statement will be published today and I of course will post it here. It prove shards taken from wounded boy in israeli hospital.
For now, this will suffice http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3261513,00.html

Source is in english
Every rational person can understand from that, it wasn't IDF.

EDIT: here it is: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150035838991&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Now, palestinians can be pissed off, but it was sure not "Israeli massacre"
And I am sure, after this case will be closed, you will not see "sensational" rebuttal in BBC, nor in AP, nor in Reuters. That's the problem with western media, like in case of Muhammad Al-Durrah. "Massacre of innocent palestinians" takes front pages, but rebuttal you hardly see.

Intel data is anecdotal because I haven't read any reports on what is traded and what is useful. The government giving my tax moneys to another country so in turn they can use that money to buy things from an American company isn't very good justification for anything. And yes, Israel can prove to be a strategic ally in the ME, if we ever need it..

Well, I'll give you a hint. For example. US was warned by israeli intelligence that major attack of Al-Qaeda is pending in one of US cities. Prior to 9/11.
AND NOW....*drums*....., imagine what HUGE amount of money could be saved if US security agencies took that warning more seriously.

$1.3 billion a yr and $850 million in economic aid. I don't see how the reasoning is any different, the government wants to gain friends by dishing out massive sums of money. Seems to work well. Of course, the merit of giving money to another government to do whatever they want is questionable.

I'm in no position to tell US what they should do and what they shouldn't. I greatly appreciate US help and consider it our closest ally. I have nothing against giving money to Egypt.
I just disagree with statement Israel couldn't survive without that help. Our GPT is pretty impressive for such small country.