GEM: Technologies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
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Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@mitsho
I replaced the numbers with icons to understand things easier at a glance.
A SMAC-style research system would basically let people choose techs one of two optional ways:
I did a final check on the tech-AI this morning. I think you'll find it's much smarter than workers. The tech-AI's producing the same results now as if I'd done everything myself. In other words, a week-old AI's opinions about techs are already as good as what took me 2 years of experience to learn.
@Core Xii
I would do this with vem if I had the time, but it isn't feasible for me to update both mods on my own. It took me over 80 hours just for the gem version of these tech updates.
I replaced the numbers with icons to understand things easier at a glance.
A SMAC-style research system would basically let people choose techs one of two optional ways:
- Look at the flavors of each available tech separately.
- Look at available flavors in a combined list.
I did a final check on the tech-AI this morning. I think you'll find it's much smarter than workers. The tech-AI's producing the same results now as if I'd done everything myself. In other words, a week-old AI's opinions about techs are already as good as what took me 2 years of experience to learn.
@Core Xii
I would do this with vem if I had the time, but it isn't feasible for me to update both mods on my own. It took me over 80 hours just for the gem version of these tech updates.
So when judging between two techs which both list, say "Mobility", now that there is just an icon, is there any way of telling whether one is better than the other for "Mobility"?
I assume the different colors are an indication. Is there a legend somewhere?
I assume the different colors are an indication. Is there a legend somewhere?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
It's the standard color scheme games use. I plan to add a legend, but UI elements are difficult to work with, and it will probably take a few days to figure out how to make a decent legend. I wanted to let people start trying things out so I went ahead and released it now.
16 Epic
8 Great
4 Good
2 Normal (white)
1 Poor
I think every tech has a few green, and a few white - it's very consistent. A couple techs have blue.
16 Epic
8 Great
4 Good
2 Normal (white)
1 Poor
I think every tech has a few green, and a few white - it's very consistent. A couple techs have blue.
Ahriman
Tyrant
The tech tree changes have reintroduced some of the economy problems.
Mines now give +1 production, +1 production with gunpowder, +1 production with steam power.
Lumbermills are available at engineering, give +1 production, give an extra +1 production with machinery, +1 production with Steam POwer.
Villages give +1 gold +1 science, +1 gold on fresh water with sailing, +1 gold on non-fresh water with economics
Farms give +1food, +1 food with fresh water with civil service, +1 food on non-fresh water with fertilizer.
So we no longer have a situation where improvements are roughly equal on fresh water; it is a no-brainer to build villages or farms on river-adjacent tiles, there is no longer a reason to build lumbermills or mines there.
So in the early game, a fresh water village will give +2 gold and +1 science, while a fresh water mine will give +1 production.
This doesn't make sense to me.
Mines now give +1 production, +1 production with gunpowder, +1 production with steam power.
Lumbermills are available at engineering, give +1 production, give an extra +1 production with machinery, +1 production with Steam POwer.
Villages give +1 gold +1 science, +1 gold on fresh water with sailing, +1 gold on non-fresh water with economics
Farms give +1food, +1 food with fresh water with civil service, +1 food on non-fresh water with fertilizer.
So we no longer have a situation where improvements are roughly equal on fresh water; it is a no-brainer to build villages or farms on river-adjacent tiles, there is no longer a reason to build lumbermills or mines there.
So in the early game, a fresh water village will give +2 gold and +1 science, while a fresh water mine will give +1 production.
This doesn't make sense to me.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
What alternative would you suggest for mines/lumbermills? I want to emphasize the current tech arrangement is very flexible! I'm going to change things based on feedback. 
I tried a few different setups for the production bonuses, but each had disadvantages. I dropped it and moved on to other things after a few hours of experimentation and discussion.
I tried a few different setups for the production bonuses, but each had disadvantages. I dropped it and moved on to other things after a few hours of experimentation and discussion.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Split the first boost back into fresh water/non-fresh water boosts, so for example mines are +1 production with fresh water on iron working, +1 production with non-fresh water on gunpowder, +1 production on industrialization.
Lumber mills could be made available at an earlier tech, (with ~50 production from chopping, lumbermills don't really need to come late), then give +1 production with fresh water on engineering, and +1 production on non-freshwater with machinery, and +1 production at steam power.
[Oh, and these changes also really highlight be problem of the Liberty policy; in the early game, you can get 3 production from a mine, or 5 production and 2GPPs from an engineer.
Lumber mills could be made available at an earlier tech, (with ~50 production from chopping, lumbermills don't really need to come late), then give +1 production with fresh water on engineering, and +1 production on non-freshwater with machinery, and +1 production at steam power.
[Oh, and these changes also really highlight be problem of the Liberty policy; in the early game, you can get 3 production from a mine, or 5 production and 2GPPs from an engineer.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
How about mathematics? The difficulty with buffing iron working is people considered it too powerful when it had production bonuses. Construction is also considered very good. Engineering would be somewhat weak without the lumbermills, so we'd need to move something there.
Something else I considered is any of these options creates a short gap between freshwater and dry production bonuses. Is it long enough to really affect river improvement choices? Engineering to Machinery is even shorter than Math to Gunpowder. One thing I thought about is these gaps might be enough to affect the psychology of which improvement is best, even if the real gameplay effect is marginal, so that could make it worth it.
I considered +1 for all with gunpowder and +1 dry with dynamite or industrialization, but it might be weird for gunpowder to help more than the later techs.
Something else we'd need to do is add some good bonuses to Engineering if we move Lumbermills off that tech. What could we move there?
Something else I considered is any of these options creates a short gap between freshwater and dry production bonuses. Is it long enough to really affect river improvement choices? Engineering to Machinery is even shorter than Math to Gunpowder. One thing I thought about is these gaps might be enough to affect the psychology of which improvement is best, even if the real gameplay effect is marginal, so that could make it worth it.
I considered +1 for all with gunpowder and +1 dry with dynamite or industrialization, but it might be weird for gunpowder to help more than the later techs.
Something else we'd need to do is add some good bonuses to Engineering if we move Lumbermills off that tech. What could we move there?
Yeah, noting those, I really notice the liberty +2 is way OP now. Villages retain their occasional usefulness, but mines and mills became useless other than with resources with markets and blast furnaces and mints. If that's what's required to make a special tile worth working, the regular mine is toast.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I've been working at balancing mines for years, so it's good to hear we finally reached the tipping point! If mines were overpowered with +1
at Iron Working, and underpowered with the bonus on Gunpowder, then a middle ground between the two should finally achieve balance.
How about this?
I'd like to stay on the topic of technology arrangement and design. If you'd like to restart the policy discussion, let's do so in another thread.
at Iron Working, and underpowered with the bonus on Gunpowder, then a middle ground between the two should finally achieve balance.How about this?
Mines with Mining
+1 freshwater mines on iron working
+1 dry mines on gunpowder
Lumbermills with Mathematics
+1 freshwater lumbermills with Engineering
+1 dry lumbermills with Machinery
+1
freshwater mines on iron working+1
dry mines on gunpowderLumbermills with Mathematics
+1
freshwater lumbermills with Engineering+1
dry lumbermills with MachineryI'd like to stay on the topic of technology arrangement and design. If you'd like to restart the policy discussion, let's do so in another thread.
Ahriman
Tyrant
My problem is that mines and mills seem too weak when villages are giving 2 base yield, and mines and mills give one base yield.
Scientists, merchants and engineers all give the same, so why do villages give more?
I think what is important is consistency. We have a fresh water bonus for farms at civil service, and non-fresh water farms at fertilizer.
That's the base we're working from.
So other improvements should work similarly; there should be a fresh water bonus in the early medieval for all improvements, and non-fresh water bonus should come later.
Otherwise we get weird incentives.
It's not quite starting the discussion... I don't think there is a single poster who believes that +2 production on all specialists in the early game is even slightly balanced, as we've been saying for some weeks now. It's a huge balance problem. It can be giving +6 or +8 production per city, from the Classical era. And it messes up all the incentives.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I've been steadily reducing the importance of mines and hills because people considered them too good for a very long time. In the previous version, I still saw opinions that mines and Iron Working were the best choices, citing the mine bonus as the reason. This is the first time in two years I've seen an opinion that mines are too weak, which means we finally reached the balancing point between strong and weak!
Finding a good setup between v1.10 and v1.11 should achieve that longtime goal.
Finding a good setup between v1.10 and v1.11 should achieve that longtime goal.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Honestly I think this is an issue of misperception. People see the boost from the mines in increasing build speed in the city, but they don't see the boost of gold from the trading posts, because it is diffuse, empire wide, and because they give a mix of yields, and people don't see the science boost. Mines weren't too strong.
If the design goal is for production and gold to be of equal value 1:1, then mines and villages need to give the same boost in yields.
My preference of course is to remove the science yield from villages, and have mines, mills and villages all give just production or gold in the same amount.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I agree perception matters. That's why I did many big changes instead of incremental steps. I want us to try totally new things we've never done before, breaking out of old habits to explore new strategies.
Something I considered is the final yield of each improvement type:
2 Farms
3 Mines
3 Lumbermills
3 Villages
Villages get their bonuses a little earlier, while mines/lumber catch up in the midgame. I did this to counteract the perception that production is more important in the early game than late game. It still shifts, just not as much as before.
In addition, I figure it's decently realistic for farms (irrigation) and villages (trade) to get a boost next to rivers, which is why I moved on to improving other parts of the tech tree. Lumbermills are an obvious choice for a river bonus too, but it's hard to split their fresh/dry bonuses in a meaningful way. Does anyone know if real mines are better near a source of moving water?
Something I considered is the final yield of each improvement type:
2 Farms
3 Mines
3 Lumbermills
3 Villages
Villages get their bonuses a little earlier, while mines/lumber catch up in the midgame. I did this to counteract the perception that production is more important in the early game than late game. It still shifts, just not as much as before.
In addition, I figure it's decently realistic for farms (irrigation) and villages (trade) to get a boost next to rivers, which is why I moved on to improving other parts of the tech tree. Lumbermills are an obvious choice for a river bonus too, but it's hard to split their fresh/dry bonuses in a meaningful way. Does anyone know if real mines are better near a source of moving water?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
On another note, please look over the techs for any estimates of tech power which seem strange, anything which should have a higher or lower ranking. The AI algorithms are still very fresh on my mind, so this week is the best time to refine it.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Rivers have been used for shipping ore and coal for a very long time. Huge amounts of ore were shipped on the Great Lakes, to Chicago and Detroit.
The gameplay goal should to make choices interesting; it is not an interesting choice between mine or farm on a river-adjacent hill if farms get a river-adjacent bonus and mines do not.
I do not think it is desirable to have villages have higher yields than mines/mills for the first ~half of the game, and for their yields to be equal only in the late-game.
mitsho
Deity
After a first part game, I gotta say, kudos that tech tree change looks really nice. 
But I got a few comments nevertheless from the game:
And a few unrelated observations for which I don't think to start a new thread
EDIT: Yes, mines near a source of fresh water are better as the water is used for pumping and other techniques. And of course the additional shipping possibilities Ahriman mentioned.
I do agree that the mine boosts can be staggered more, but I do like the villages as they are now. In the end, I don't think there can be an optimal solution since the numbers we have to juggle with are so small, so there can't be small changes...
But I got a few comments nevertheless from the game:
- Switch Stonehenge and Terracotta. The early
wonder needs to be very early and it does make sense for Stonehenge to be the very first wonder after all. - Push back Petra. Masonry is crazy early (and the city itself is rather late Antiquity anyways)
- Very good change on Trade, it seems civs are getting it now rather quickly = Embassies can be established!
- Mining does seem very lacking atm. I don't think it'd be too strong to have forest chop on there again.
- Do Steel and Physics really need to be two separate techs? Conquest empires are already lacking in science. No need to make them research two things at once?
- The Flavian Amphitheatre change from marble to horses doesn't seem very realistic, but I guess it's good enough for gameplay.
And a few unrelated observations for which I don't think to start a new thread
Spoiler :
for conquering a religious city state. Shouldn't I have gotten EDIT: Yes, mines near a source of fresh water are better as the water is used for pumping and other techniques. And of course the additional shipping possibilities Ahriman mentioned.
I do agree that the mine boosts can be staggered more, but I do like the villages as they are now. In the end, I don't think there can be an optimal solution since the numbers we have to juggle with are so small, so there can't be small changes...
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I'd be okay with swapping Stonehenge. Is your concern with Petra historical or gameplay?
I figure we'll go the mining path for reasons like:
Steel and Phyics are easy to beeline, so they provide limited bonuses. Chivalry needs more research and gives a few more bonuses, while Machinery is hardest to get, and has the best bonuses. This is the pattern of matching challenges to rewards. I believe longswords and trebuchets are important enough that it will be okay, but I'll keep an eye on things in the time ahead.
My thought with the Flavian Amphitheater is performances involving chariots or exotic elephants are probably more popular than humans alone, so it gets more gold with access to performance animals.
I'll investigate the other things you brought up.
I figure we'll go the mining path for reasons like:
- We start near hills, mine luxuries, quarry luxuries, marshes, or deserts.
- Leaders with a unique soldier, barracks, or walls.
- Conquerors who want barracks, spears, or the heroic epic.
- Anyone who needs colosseums for happiness.
- Conquerors eventually need it for Catapults.
Steel and Phyics are easy to beeline, so they provide limited bonuses. Chivalry needs more research and gives a few more bonuses, while Machinery is hardest to get, and has the best bonuses. This is the pattern of matching challenges to rewards. I believe longswords and trebuchets are important enough that it will be okay, but I'll keep an eye on things in the time ahead.
My thought with the Flavian Amphitheater is performances involving chariots or exotic elephants are probably more popular than humans alone, so it gets more gold with access to performance animals.
I'll investigate the other things you brought up.
I wouldn't mind seeing Flavian Amphitheatre sooner. When I have at least 3+ city states near me I always like getting that great merchant early and sending them towards the most beneficial CS. Then buying up a CS or buying buildings in my capital or early settler.
With the idea of merging Steel and Physics rename it "Siege Warfare".
Also I like to see Smokeless Powder and Fertilizer merged into "Chemicals and Fertilizers" or "Chemical Compositions".
I also haven't seen any events happen in my game too.
Mining feels a little naked, add remove jungles, and or build roads.
Churches of Lilibela- add free temple.
With the idea of merging Steel and Physics rename it "Siege Warfare".
Also I like to see Smokeless Powder and Fertilizer merged into "Chemicals and Fertilizers" or "Chemical Compositions".
I also haven't seen any events happen in my game too.
Mining feels a little naked, add remove jungles, and or build roads.
Churches of Lilibela- add free temple.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I could move the Flavian Amphitehater to the Trade tech. I originally considered putting it there, but Horseback Riding isn't much further back on the tree, and Trade's already very good. I feel we needed more incentive to go for Horseback Riding. It's got three rare performance-style buildings now: Circus, Circus Maximus, and Flavian Amphitheater.
