General A New Dawn discussion

[Rezca]

Yeah, from the industrial era onwards cities can grow quite large regardless of surrounding terrain. But that's not too far away from the truth, is it?

Well it does seem kind of silly that a one-tile tundra island can be a super-city

It's just that those buildings with their immense bonuses to food/production/etc literally just make careful city placement meaningless, which has always been a very important part of Civilization. I suppose careful city placement is still important, but the buildings like the Food Processing Plant (+8 Food and then +25% to all food bonuses with Power, and then +2 food for a dozen different resources? Really?) render such planning pointless. Early game it's important, unlocking those buildings removes the need.

 

[Lord Bigfoot]

Well it does seem kind of silly that a one-tile tundra island can be a super-city

It's just that those buildings with their immense bonuses to food/production/etc literally just make careful city placement meaningless, which has always been a very important part of Civilization. I suppose careful city placement is still important, but the buildings like the Food Processing Plant (+8 Food and then +25% to all food bonuses with Power, and then +2 food for a dozen different resources? Really?) render such planning pointless. Early game it's important, unlocking those buildings removes the need.

Well that's the point of them isn't it? Early game you need to place your cities carefully to maximize growth and production just like in RL. However once the buildings get unlocked then careful placement shouldn't be really that important again just like RL.

 

[Rezca]

Well that's the point of them isn't it? Early game you need to place your cities carefully to maximize growth and production just like in RL. However once the buildings get unlocked then careful placement shouldn't be really that important again just like RL.

That doesn't really change my opinion on the Food Processing Plant's bonuses being absolutely absurd though. "Like in real life" or not.

Remove the innate +8 food or the +25% bonus and that'd be a big step forward right there.


Theoretically, those buildings can pretty much keep a city afloat on their own even after being nailed by a BBM and surrounded by toxic smog. They can't work any of the tiles, but the free-food-for-all buildings keep it going and it just shrugs off the waste that would otherwise cripple it (Depending on if it's relying on those tiles around it to actually keep that high population up or not)

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well 1tile SE would pick up the stone but also have more useless peaks in the vicinity - useless only if you're like me and don't ever use the Useable Mountains modmod anyway
Which is why I suggested 1 tile South
One tile south east would be better (IMO) if you have Useable Mountains, but if it's disabled you'd want less Peaks in your workable radius. Then again, with all the fancy buildings AND has to offer, is optimal city placement really that important anymore? I'm looking especially at you, Mr. Food Processing Plant

I Always use Usable Mountains option, ever since Afforess made it. And I would not be overly concerned about the Mountains even if I was not using that option. Having that Starting city on a Hill is worth losing a few mountain tiles. Besides the mountain tiles would limit the attack vector for any incoming enemy forces.

And I always start in the earliest era a mod has. So Initial city placement is very critical.

Now by the time I get to use the Food Processing Plant there usually isn't much open terrain left to build a city on. I don't wipe out rivals early (unless it's Shaka ). I prefer my conquering to happen later in the game.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I must say I totally agree with Joseph on this one. When I get to food processing plant there's no more room for placing new cities, so I can't see the problem. But maybe it's just Joseph and me.

 

[Rezca]

I must say I totally agree with Joseph on this one. When I get to food processing plant there's no more room for placing new cities, so I can't see the problem. But maybe it's just Joseph and me.

Probably not just you - I'm just slow to accept certain things

I just look at that massive bonus they give and my eyes just pop out! I forget how late the building comes into play, but even so... Just seems like it could still be toned down a notch. But, given how most of my modern-era games have been BTS ones, and I've only had about three or four games in AND that reached that point, I guess that helps it seem totally overpowered to me


As for the Useable Mountains... At first I refused to touch it. After the recent testing phase, I began to warm up to it along with Realistic Culture and began using it in my random games again. However, after experiencing some brutal revolutions where the rebels just camped twenty or thirty infantry on the peaks and I was completely unable to dislodge them without sacrificing ghastly amounts of units (Yes, even siege weapons. Even when they were critically injured, they still made great use of that +75% defense bonus ), I went back to playing with it disabled. At least when playing with Revolutions enabled - that civil war left a lasting impression on me


I don't know why I see the useable mountains as so strange. Mountains were perfectly tranversable in CivIII after all.

 

[Afforess]

However, after experiencing some brutal revolutions where the rebels just camped twenty or thirty infantry on the peaks and I was completely unable to dislodge them without sacrificing ghastly amounts of units (Yes, even siege weapons. Even when they were critically injured, they still made great use of that +75% defense bonus ), I went back to playing with it disabled. At least when playing with Revolutions enabled - that civil war left a lasting impression on me

Clearly there just needs to be spy missions to "sabatoge defenses", which would temporarily remove defensive bonuses

 

[Rezca]

Clearly there just needs to be spy missions to "sabatoge defenses", which would temporarily remove defensive bonuses

Well the peaks were in my own borders - and the city in question was almost completely surrounded by either peaks or ocean - so spies would need to be allowed to do their thing within friendly borders for that to work. Which is actually something I've wanted when AI spread five of their corperations into my cities and force me into a civic that disabled foreign or even all corps just to free myself from the massive amount of upkeep

Always wanted to know why I couldn't purge corporations I didn't want from my own cities


Aircraft and missile weapons would be a good way to bring down rebels hiding in peak tiles, but I didn't have access to either

 

[oldnooob]

Food processing plants are very useful and needed in large long slow games. They appear very near to the end of the game where new cities are placed in very marginal locations, if at all.

 

[Noyyau]

That doesn't really change my opinion on the Food Processing Plant's bonuses being absolutely absurd though. "Like in real life" or not.

Remove the innate +8 food or the +25% bonus and that'd be a big step forward right there.


Theoretically, those buildings can pretty much keep a city afloat on their own even after being nailed by a BBM and surrounded by toxic smog. They can't work any of the tiles, but the free-food-for-all buildings keep it going and it just shrugs off the waste that would otherwise cripple it (Depending on if it's relying on those tiles around it to actually keep that high population up or not)

You could also tinker with the xml for the building and reduce the bonus, to find what works for you.

I Always use Usable Mountains option, ever since Afforess made it. And I would not be overly concerned about the Mountains even if I was not using that option. Having that Starting city on a Hill is worth losing a few mountain tiles. Besides the mountain tiles would limit the attack vector for any incoming enemy forces.

And I always start in the earliest era a mod has. So Initial city placement is very critical.

Now by the time I get to use the Food Processing Plant there usually isn't much open terrain left to build a city on. I don't wipe out rivals early (unless it's Shaka ). I prefer my conquering to happen later in the game.

JosEPh

I must say I totally agree with Joseph on this one. When I get to food processing plant there's no more room for placing new cities, so I can't see the problem. But maybe it's just Joseph and me.

I also tend to start at the very beginning of history, so until the industrial era city placement is crucial.
Already in the late medieval era and later, though, I am prone to destroying enemy cities I conquer unless they have something useful (a good wonder or a bunch of settled GPs) or are just in the right spot according to my own dotmap.
Otherwise, it's Burn Baby Burn and a new city will grow quite quickly (given some money help to rush the basic production buildings).

As for the Useable Mountains... At first I refused to touch it. After the recent testing phase, I began to warm up to it along with Realistic Culture and began using it in my random games again. However, after experiencing some brutal revolutions where the rebels just camped twenty or thirty infantry on the peaks and I was completely unable to dislodge them without sacrificing ghastly amounts of units (Yes, even siege weapons. Even when they were critically injured, they still made great use of that +75% defense bonus ), I went back to playing with it disabled. At least when playing with Revolutions enabled - that civil war left a lasting impression on me .

Maybe you should've accepted their terms that time

 

[Rezca]

You could also tinker with the xml for the building and reduce the bonus, to find what works for you.

I might, since I've been doing the same in C2C with some of its buildings and civics, and with Sogroon's dinosaurs, but I'm not sure how to 'keep' those changes between SVN updating. It's just minor nitpicking from me anyway

Honestly though I would drop either the +8 food or the +25% power bonus. It's powerful enough on its own, and coupling it with a Cannery?

Maybe you should've accepted their terms that time

Aaahh... I was going to at one point... Saladin came up and offered to make peace for one city when on and off all five of them across the islands were revolting... This one city was largely just a space filler and only had one resource in its vicinity... I forgot which city he was asking for (Which one it was specifically) and in other circumstances would have given it to him to make him shut up, but I had to decline so I could see which city he was talking about. The next time he came up bargaining for peace, it was the usual "Give me that city, and the other colonies you were working so hard to develop" garbage and the war was back on in full

What was annoying was when I rejected that demand, the two colonies that were starting to work their way back to 'Safe' status immediately plummeted back into 'Danger!' and 'Warning!' after the rejection!


Funnily enough during all the warring, his rebels took a colony from Hatshepsut and razed it, and grabbed a colony from Genghis which served as his capitol for the rest of the game

 

[Vokarya]

I just want to point out that the reason Food Processing Plant is so powerful is because of all the buildings it replaces. It's a replacement for Cannery, Bakery, and Butchery. That's actually where 7 of the base +8 food comes from; Cannery is +3, Bakery is +3, and Butchery is +1. A lot of the +2 from resources is also from combining Cannery and Butchery, although I did standardize the food bonuses on +2. So it's not really an uber-building as much as wrapping up several smaller buildings in a neat little package, but it is a significant improvement. It just looks powerful at first glance.

 

[Rezca]

I just want to point out that the reason Food Processing Plant is so powerful is because of all the buildings it replaces. It's a replacement for Cannery, Bakery, and Butchery. That's actually where 7 of the base +8 food comes from; Cannery is +3, Bakery is +3, and Butchery is +1. A lot of the +2 from resources is also from combining Cannery and Butchery, although I did standardize the food bonuses on +2. So it's not really an uber-building as much as wrapping up several smaller buildings in a neat little package, but it is a significant improvement. It just looks powerful at first glance.

It replaces the Cannery? I didn't know that

Has it been like that for a while (Pre-v640) or was that a recent change? If it's been that way for a long time then I must say I'm a bit embarrassed I never noticed that
Well that explains a lot actually, guess my concerns have been put to rest!

 

[Rezca]

I certainly hope these aren't the typical trades that the AI are giving each other when requesting Cease Relations
If they are, that might be contributing to why half the world would be totally backwards while the others are sailing on in technology!

Oh, and a few turns later Bismark came over and asked me more or less the same thing. "I'll give you a tech if you give me your entire treasury (At the time 16,000 or so) and cease relations with your vassal" Right, sure. I'll get riiiight on that Bismark

 

[Vokarya]

It replaces the Cannery? I didn't know that

Has it been like that for a while (Pre-v640) or was that a recent change? If it's been that way for a long time then I must say I'm a bit embarrassed I never noticed that
Well that explains a lot actually, guess my concerns have been put to rest!

I did that in v668. In an effort to keep the building list from getting way out of control, I like to use one modern building to replace more than one older building. This is why, for example, Shopping District replaces both Bazaar and Market, and Hypermarket replaces both Shopping District and Supermarket (and by extension, Bazaar, Market, and Grocer).

I set up Food Processing Plant as a replacement for all of Bakery, Butchery, Cannery, and Artesian Well (which is replaced first by Cannery). Since I don't want to ever punish a player for upgrading, the new building has to inherit all of the bonuses from the buildings it's replacing, plus a small additional bonus for spending the hammers to build the new building in the first place. This is why replacement buildings wind up with big bonuses.

 

[Rezca]

I did that in v668. In an effort to keep the building list from getting way out of control, I like to use one modern building to replace more than one older building. This is why, for example, Shopping District replaces both Bazaar and Market, and Hypermarket replaces both Shopping District and Supermarket (and by extension, Bazaar, Market, and Grocer).

I set up Food Processing Plant as a replacement for all of Bakery, Butchery, Cannery, and Artesian Well (which is replaced first by Cannery). Since I don't want to ever punish a player for upgrading, the new building has to inherit all of the bonuses from the buildings it's replacing, plus a small additional bonus for spending the hammers to build the new building in the first place. This is why replacement buildings wind up with big bonuses.

Ahh alright that's why I didn't notice it then, since I only got to that point once since that revision


On a different note, I found this hilarious:

Dido declared war on me and the moment the war horns were finished blaring the peace trumpets came in. Turns out, Dido had a Great Diplomat born in her city on the very turn she declared, and used him to make peace - on the same turn the declaration was made!

The net result was one single unit killed on both sides

 

[nionios]

As for the Useable Mountains... At first I refused to touch it. After the recent testing phase, I began to warm up to it along with Realistic Culture and began using it in my random games again. However, after experiencing some brutal revolutions where the rebels just camped twenty or thirty infantry on the peaks and I was completely unable to dislodge them without sacrificing ghastly amounts of units (Yes, even siege weapons. Even when they were critically injured, they still made great use of that +75% defense bonus ), I went back to playing with it disabled. At least when playing with Revolutions enabled - that civil war left a lasting impression on me

The good point is that when a revolution is about to begin you are warned about it and since you see the message "prepare for war!" you can move your forces to terrain tiles that give defensive bonuses (mountains,hills,forests,etc).If am not mistaken, the rebels won't appear on tiles that are occupied by your forces.

 

[Spirictum]

Ahh alright that's why I didn't notice it then, since I only got to that point once since that revision


On a different note, I found this hilarious:

Dido declared war on me and the moment the war horns were finished blaring the peace trumpets came in. Turns out, Dido had a Great Diplomat born in her city on the very turn she declared, and used him to make peace - on the same turn the declaration was made!

The net result was one single unit killed on both sides

The mission is done on the GDiplo's own civ city? I didn't use the Great Diplomat for that yet. Yeah this needs some rethinking.

The good point is that when a revolution is about to begin you are warned about it and since you see the message "prepare for war!" you can move your forces to terrain tiles that give defensive bonuses (mountains,hills,forests,etc).If am not mistaken, the rebels won't appear on tiles that are occupied by your forces.

Not sure in this mod, but back in LoR workers couldn't be used for that, enemy troops just popped on their tiles destroying them. The rest of the military was ok.

 

[oldnooob]

So how do I declare war on a civ that won't talk to me?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

So how do I declare war on a civ that won't talk to me?

Enter their border with your troops... or just alt+ click on the civilization name on the score list near the minimap.