General History Discussion

[Azurian]

Talk about historical periods, historical archaeology, missing important historical buildings and time periods, historical chronology, and historical inaccuracies in Caveman2Cosmos.


-------------
I have noticed some grave historical inaccuracies in Caveman2Cosmos.
Incan culture was developed in 1200 A.D
Aztec culture was developed starting in 1300 A.D.
Classical Maya is A.D to 900.
Mach Pichu was built around 1450 A.D.
Gate of the Sun is ok because it was built by the Tiwanaku in 1500 B.C

Why is Calendar at Classical? The first calendar was not the Julian, it was the Babylonian calendar in 21st century BC? Calendar should be Ancient. Segmented Time Or Timekeeping TECH should replace the spot Calendar was in.

Why is Chichen Itza in Ancient? It was built between AD 600–900. It should be in Late Classical, probably under Aesthetics.

Why is Currency in Classical? It should be in Ancient. What should take its place is a Tech called Coinage.

Why is there no Dynasty (China) tech or mention of India Middle Kingdoms aka its Golden Age??

Was is there no Decolonization (Africa) Tech around 1950?

Why are some Native American cultures in Prehistoric who reached their "golden age" between 300-1000 A.D?


Apache came to existence in around 1000 A.D or Athabaskan period.
Cherokee came to existence around 1400 A.D.

Ancient Medicine (Ayurveda/Surgery) needs to be moved to Ancient, and Classical Medicine (Hippocrates) takes it place. Medieval Medicine (Avicenna), needs to exist.

Board Games needs to be renamed to Leisure, its too specific.

Whitesmiting work on cold metal, Blacksmith work with hot metal. Why no Whitesmith building?

Movable Type needs to exist somewhere in Classical, it in 1040, before Printing Press was 1450.

Where is the Global Gold Rush and American Manifest Destiny?

If we have Divine Right, we need a Mandate of Heaven TECH around A.D 900 (China) that comes after Dynasty TECH somewhere right after Code of Laws.

We should separate Colonialism to British Colonialism, French Colonialism, Portugal Colonialism, and Spanish Colonialism. They had specific buildings and conquered specific regions. The colonialism Tech needs to be moved to Classical and represent Greek and Roman Colonialism.

Also we have Piracy in Ancient but no Viking Piracy (900 A.D) or Wokou Piracy (1400 A.D) or even Caribbean Piracy Tech (1700 A.D). I think Piracy needs to be the new "hunting" where you hunt pirates and get gold, culture, or science treasure by stealing their loot at sea.

There is no mention of the Slave Trade. Colonial Slavery was an extremely important part of history.

The Age of Discovery (15th century) is very slim, I see very little stuff.

I have a problem with Sanitation Tech, there was plumbing in Ancient Era ( 2700 B.C), it appears too late in Classical.

I'll stop here for now.

 

[strategyonly]

ls612 is the one that made the changes to gamespeed, but he is working on Civ V yuck now.

I dont know if anyone else has even attempted to do anything with these dates, they are very very very hard to get to work correctly, DH knows more about it than me, sorry.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ancient Medicine (Ayurveda/Surgery) needs to be moved to Ancient, and Classical Medicine (Hippocrates) takes it place. Medieval Medicine (Avicenna), needs to exist.

I find it interesting that of the 250 or so medical recipes in a papyrus from the times of Ancient Egypt most (200+) were still in use in 1950! Chants and prayers to the gods had been replaced by clocks in all and in some old world plants by plants found in the new world.

Why is Calendar at Classical? The first calendar was not the Julian, it was the Babylonian calendar in 21st century BC? Calendar should be Ancient. Segmented Time Or Timekeeping TECH should replace the spot Calendar was in.

I need both seasonality and cycles as techs for the work on modifying the religions both should lead to calendar.

 

[Azurian]

ls612 is the one that made the changes to gamespeed, but he is working on Civ V yuck now.

I dont know if anyone else has even attempted to do anything with these dates, they are very very very hard to get to work correctly, DH knows more about it than me, sorry.

Oh its not about the game date, its about the placement of the Building/culture/wonder in the Tech Tree. The major errors are in i Mesoamerica, (north and central america), and South america elements.

The problem is that there was 3 major periods in Mesoamerica, North America, and South america. The first about 2000 B.C, the second 100 A.D, and the third around 900 A.D, and 4th around 1300 A.D. I think modders are unaware of this, and think New World Culture never evolved, it evolved 4 times, with Maya, Inca, and Aztec being developed after 1300/1400 A.D.


Archaic Mesoamerica
Formative Mesoamerica
Classic Mesoamerica
Late Mesoamerica

Horizon Southamerica
Dawn Southamerica
Noon Southamerica
Sunset Southamerica

 

[DRJ]

A lot of americas cultures are in prehistoric because to unlock the prehistoric units in medieval times would make no sense due to their low strength. you must see time as non-linear here.
what we can postulate is that with the technological prerequisites of for instance the americas cultures, those could have come at another time also, maybe not at 300 BC but 3000 BC or 15000 BC. In real history they didn't, of course but regarding the stone age lifestyle of many nomads thats not enough reason to not make it possible in alternate timelines friendly C2C?!

I really like the Decolonization tech idea. Could have the effect to possibly force leading empires to free their colonies due to large rising instability, which would shift the balances of leader/field/vassals etc!

Decolonization would be a prerequisite tech of some tech a AI leader would go after (or a human^^), so it would have to take the big malus to get the advantage back again. As I said, it makes games more interesting, especially ways to prevent runaway civs are too rare, this would cover it a bit in that period... Renaissance and Classical leveler techs also needed, maybe...

any ideas about those?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The problem is matching history with a technology time line. Do we put a stone age culture in the stone age or do we put it into the iron age where it actually happened on the Earth? Personally I would go for the what if and put them in the stone age so that they can develop at the same rate as others rather than handicaping them.

 

[strategyonly]

Personally I would go for the what if and put them in the stone age so that they can develop at the same rate as others rather than handicapping them.

That makes alot of sense, at least to me. But again, i am STILL WAITING for the nomad stuff, then i believe things will change alot?? Maybe??

 

[Azurian]

I hope that:
Viking Piracy (900 A.D)
Wokou Piracy (1400 A.D)
Caribbean Piracy (1700 A.D)

replaces Subdued Animals/ Hunting with Pirate Hunting. When you attack a Pirate, there is a % chance it can drop either gold, science, culture, hammers as "treasure", like animals drop food and hammers when killed to your nearest city. It would make the game really interesting, and harder to travel by sea to other continents. Wether this s feasible, who knows.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I hope that:
Viking Piracy (900 A.D)
Wokou Piracy (1400 A.D)
Caribbean Piracy (1700 A.D)

replaces Subdued Animals/ Hunting with Pirate Hunting. When you attack a Pirate, there is a % chance it can drop either gold, science, culture, hammers as "treasure" like animals drop food and hammers when killed to your nearest city. It would make the game really interesting, and harder to travel by sea to other continents. Wether this s feasible, who knows.

That is possible. It could be an extension on Orion Veteran's Piracy mod. It may not need any coding, just XML. We would have to make sure it fits in with Afforess' War Prizes mod. Which means we would need to look at both before we go off half cocked in implementation . Basically we would add the kill/capture actions to the pirate ships and remove them from the other mods.

 

[pepper2000]

I think that the Currency tech refers more specifically to coinage, which historians date to the Lydians around the 7th or 6th century BC, which makes it appropriate as a transition from Ancient to Classical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia). There were other forms of money used prior to coins (e.g. cowrie shells, barley), and if you want to incorporate that, I think a better solution would be a new tech (perhaps Ancient Currency); or move Currency to Ancient and put a new tech Coinage where Currency currently resides.

While on the subject, I find it puzzling that Code of Laws appears so late. The earlier known law code is Code of Ur-Nammu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu), around 2100-2050 BC. The famous Hammurabi code is dated to about 1772 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi).

I think that Feline Domestication should be moved forward and require Agriculture (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief_cats.html). Cats were domesticated (or as Albus tells me, cats domesticated humans) when grain storage necessitated a means of killing mice. If anyone knows more about animal domestication, I would review some of those techs.

Falconry also seems out of place in the Prehistoric Era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconry), with earliest references around 2000 BC.

Is Megalith Construction possible without Sedentary Lifestyle? There is some debate as to whether people settled down and then built megaliths, or whether people settled down because they wanted to build megaliths. See Gobekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe).

 

[strategyonly]

I think that the Currency tech, blah blah blah . . .

I do agree on these.

 

[DRJ]

Is Megalith Construction possible without Sedentary Lifestyle? There is some debate as to whether people settled down and then built megaliths, or whether people settled down because they wanted to build megaliths. See Gobekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe).

As far as I know they wandered around and while still being nomads built Göbekli Tepe as a gathering place for rituals for many tribes in the area.

Back then you couldn't live of collecting the wild grasses and there was plenty of game around. But having a place to thank mother nature for it and carving it in stone was neat.

So, having need of megaliths and settling down later was not really connected in Göbekli Tepe.


On another topic, what you guys think about my idea stated above to have "leader leveler techs", in classical (?), renaissance (?) and modern (Decolonization) - for instance increasing instability in oversea colonies/far away cities upon research?

 

[strategyonly]

On another topic, what you guys think about my idea stated above to have "leader leveler techs", in classical (?), renaissance (?) and modern (Decolonization) - for instance increasing instability in oversea colonies/far away cities upon research?

I am lost sorry, out of my depth here

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have noticed some grave historical inaccuracies in Caveman2Cosmos.
Incan culture was developed in 1200 A.D
Aztec culture was developed starting in 1300 A.D.
Classical Maya is A.D to 900.
Mach Pichu was built around 1450 A.D.
Gate of the Sun is ok because it was built by the Tiwanaku in 1500 B.C

All the Americas basically have a late start into the compared to the old world. Technologocally speaking Aztecs were in say Ancient/Classical era level technologies no matter what "date" they were at. That's why the Spanish were so technologically advanced compared to the Aztecs when they met.

I suspect that if migration went the other way where people came from the New World rather than the Old world that the tables would have been turned and the Aztecs could have discovered the Spanish.

 

[Thunderbrd]

On another topic, what you guys think about my idea stated above to have "leader leveler techs", in classical (?), renaissance (?) and modern (Decolonization) - for instance increasing instability in oversea colonies/far away cities upon research?

Well... the combat mod comes first but there's some plans for this kind of thing to work into the Developing Leader project.

 

[Pepo]

On another topic, what you guys think about my idea stated above to have "leader leveler techs", in classical (?), renaissance (?) and modern (Decolonization) - for instance increasing instability in oversea colonies/far away cities upon research?

you maean using the revolution feature? Also why would a player research this teachs before any others????

 

[Azurian]

Changed Thread title to General History Discussion.

That is possible. It could be an extension on Orion Veteran's Piracy mod. It may not need any coding, just XML. We would have to make sure it fits in with Afforess' War Prizes mod. Which means we would need to look at both before we go off half cocked in implementation . Basically we would add the kill/capture actions to the pirate ships and remove them from the other mods.

This is very good news, after Combat Mod is finished we can take a look. The main reason I would want this is because after you become too strong for Sea Animals, the water terrains are too safe. Pirates will basically be Coastal and later Ocean Barbarians that are quite the menace, which they were in history. If possible, they can spread crime and disease to Ships. The Space 4x game Sins of a Solar Empire and Disant World both have Pirates (well space pirates) and their nuisance is a great game element that forces Transports to be escorted and constant Patrols. I'm sure we can get ideas from Civilization Colonization.


I can see new Promotions Line:
Bounty Hunter I, II, III(same like Hunting except its increased strength against Pirates)

 

[strategyonly]

Changed Thread title to General History Discussion.



This is very good news, after Combat Mod is finished we can take a look. The main reason I would want this is because after you become too strong for Sea Animals, the water terrains are too safe. Pirates will basically be Coastal and later Ocean Barbarians that are quite the menace, which they were in history. If possible, they can spread crime and disease to Ships. The Space 4x game Sins of a Solar Empire and Disant World both have Pirates (well space pirates) and their nuisance is a great game element that forces Transports to be escorted and constant Patrols. I'm sure we can get ideas from Civilization Colonization.


I can see new Promotions Line:
Bounty Hunter I, II, III(same like Hunting except its increased strength against Pirates)

Nice stuff, and like they used to get "Scurvy"

 

[Azurian]

I think that the Currency tech refers more specifically to coinage, which historians date to the Lydians around the 7th or 6th century BC, which makes it appropriate as a transition from Ancient to Classical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia). There were other forms of money used prior to coins (e.g. cowrie shells, barley), and if you want to incorporate that, I think a better solution would be a new tech (perhaps Ancient Currency); or move Currency to Ancient and put a new tech Coinage where Currency currently resides.

While on the subject, I find it puzzling that Code of Laws appears so late. The earlier known law code is Code of Ur-Nammu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu), around 2100-2050 BC. The famous Hammurabi code is dated to about 1772 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi).

I think that Feline Domestication should be moved forward and require Agriculture (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief_cats.html). Cats were domesticated (or as Albus tells me, cats domesticated humans) when grain storage necessitated a means of killing mice. If anyone knows more about animal domestication, I would review some of those techs.

Falconry also seems out of place in the Prehistoric Era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconry), with earliest references around 2000 BC.

Is Megalith Construction possible without Sedentary Lifestyle? There is some debate as to whether people settled down and then built megaliths, or whether people settled down because they wanted to build megaliths. See Gobekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe).

I think Currency is fine where it is. We could add Employment (working and getting paid with goods). I have a list of ancient occupations that sprawled with Pottery like Freshwater Seller, Marine Cashmarie, Forage Plantafine that traded goods individually from their huts or traveled on domesticated animal from village to village in the morning. This was before markets or international trade routes were avaliable. These merchants didn't travel more than a few short hours a day and returned home.

If you needed hay for your cows you would trade a pottery of milk to a Plantafine for a bundle of hay. The transaction would be recorded in a tablet.

Pottery is a merchant game changer in storage, cooking, and transport of goods.

The next merchant game changer should be glassware.

Well Hydro approved a new Tech called Conduct that is right after Chiefdom. He has plans for early law buildings.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Seal Maker we already have is the one that "records the transaction in a tablet". They also provide the tags for containers so that the container does not need to be opened to identify what is in it.