General Leader Discussion

[Funak]

I do, at least when I play Emperor. Starting to move to Immortal, we'll see how that goes. And yeah, as you say, i just take cover 1 and 2. But I warmonger a lot AND I actually use Classical/Med infantry as more than meat shields. That longswordsmen are useless thread is confusing to me tbh. Guess I've been doing it wrong?

That's how I'm playing as well, only I pretty much just go for medic or cover on all units because that's about as many promotions I can get for them, playing on standard.

 

[IcyAngel]

Spain - unsure where to place. It's very fun to play as but the UA in itself is pretty bad due to it giving you way less Faith alone than Celtic one unless you go absolutely ballistic with aggression but it's still fun and fitting. UB is great, awesome, wonderful - if you can get your cities to grow fast and have a good faith gain to begin with. If you don't, it's just awesome but still one of the best. UU is situational, bad at actually fighting but overpowered at settling overseas which is ironic considering the name of this one means Conqueror. Conquistadors are only good at being peaceful (...or settling after you burn down inferior cities with little to no infrastructure, which they quite literally devour with ease... But the same can be said about almost all units of the time)

IT's not always possible to get a religion at higher difficulties due to its bad UA faith.

Let's say it's A-/B+ on lower, B on higher difficulties if you can settle overseas, but it's worse if you can't/don't want to settle on other islands/continents due to UU being less useful and if you can't/don't want to be at war because UA becomes just a convenience with no influence spread and if you get no religion or don't manage to steal one, you'll have no fun.
This civ is carried by Mission which is its centrepiece and it's only consistently good part, apart from no foreign religion spread and no foreign missionary spread which only actually matter and truly work if you get a religion.

Ah! a bit harsh imo.

The UA is fantastic; religious unrest is generally my biggest unhappiness contributor when I'm playing the religious game - none of that with Spain. 10-20 free happiness for me (I'd get rid of it with Rationalism but that comes later obviously). Automatic conversion on founding and conquering means you save thousands of points of faith during a game - aka more GPs, early access to faith buildings and free holy sites if you desire. Going for churches -or god forbid the enhancer that gives +25/50% spread- means your religion will be everywhere.

The Mission is also A+ (though Gazebo, if you're reading this, mission provides 25% conversion resistance... doesn't sound too useful considering the UA!).

Conquistador, well... it's a vanilla knight 95% of the time. The window of opportunity simply isn't there. By the time I reach chivalry, all the spots I want have been settled. If it could embark on the ocean, ah! that would be something else. Just throwing the idea out there...

-----------------------------------------

I won't bother making a ranking, but I agree that Germany and Egypt are both in a bad spot. Currently Egypt only makes sense in lower difficulty levels, which is fine with me if that's the intended design. Germany, however, isn't good at anything imo. Maintaining an ally is simply too much work for the bonuses the UA provides. Compare it to Morocco! It should give half bonuses for friendships at least.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Ah! a bit harsh imo.

The UA is fantastic; religious unrest is generally my biggest unhappiness contributor when I'm playing the religious game - none of that with Spain. 10-20 free happiness for me (I'd get rid of it with Rationalism but that comes later obviously). Automatic conversion on founding and conquering means you save thousands of points of faith during a game - aka more GPs, early access to faith buildings and free holy sites if you desire. Going for churches -or god forbid the enhancer that gives +25/50% spread- means your religion will be everywhere.

The UA however lacks superior flexibility seen in the likes of Korea, Poland and Maya which are always good. If you fail to get a religion (happened to me about twice, and happens ALWAYS to AI Isabella - UA's faith output for settling is not exactly impressive), you must first conquer someone with it to get anything good. Hell, IIRC even Mission can't be faith bought until you get a religion in your cities, meaning your UA and UB both are hit if you don't get a religion. It's great when it works, I agree, but it's not the most consistent.

Once you get Piety, everything not following a religion turns at the speed of light and Spain UA's usefulness is relegated mostly to settling with Conquistador (which isn't too often) or conquering, which may not be things you want to do. It's a situational UA.

The Mission is also A+ (though Gazebo, if you're reading this, mission provides 25% conversion resistance... doesn't sound too useful considering the UA!).

Agreed about Mission, it is a great building. Inferior IMHO to Colosseum and probably Denmark's ForgotName thing, but top tier. Granted Brazil gets much more gold from it's UA than you do from Mission and Korea will accumulate more Science than you do Faith + Gold, but you can't have everything.

Also noticed the conversion resistance, but the Mission is good I didn't care it had an element that doesn't really work.

Conquistador, well... it's a vanilla knight 95% of the time. The window of opportunity simply isn't there. By the time I reach chivalry, all the spots I want have been settled. If it could embark on the ocean, ah! that would be something else. Just throwing the idea out there...

You know what you're talking about! Loving the idea, would also help Spain turn into early explorers, especially if the +2 Conquistador vision actually worked when embarked (...because tbh +2 vision is almost useless on a unit that can see a lot anyway and has 4 movement).

I won't bother making a ranking, but I agree that Germany and Egypt are both in a bad spot. Currently Egypt only makes sense in lower difficulty levels, which is fine with me if that's the intended design. Germany, however, isn't good at anything imo. Maintaining an ally is simply too much work for the bonuses the UA provides. Compare it to Morocco! It should give half bonuses for friendships at least.

Germany's bonuses are really silly compared to the effort needed, I agree. Doesn't help that Statecraft is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed - in fact it is pretty terrible compared to Piety/Aesthetics (at least in my opinion) unless you play a civ that loves sending CS trade routes, like Portugal or Germany.

 

[Qualanqui]

Personally I miss a cool dedicated Viking civ as Denmark just is not viking enough IMO.
So I was thinking it would be cool to give them ocean crossing an era early and the abillity to "sack" cities for gold/culture/faith instead of capturing them and maybe a UB that make farms more productive and able to be built on tundra, because historically vikings were farmers who went a viking every summer in there longships but were also great explorers so I just don't really get the full conquest direction they went in civ v.
I also agree with the 3 uniques it would give you alot more bang for your buck and it would be cool to have all your uniques start in ancient times (not necessarily ancient era however) but stay relevant all the way through.
As for the main theme of this thread however I can't really comment too much as I have played halfish of a Danish game and am most of the way through a Shoshone playthrough so I can say unequivocally that they are awesome and the Danes were dissapointiny but I don't get much time to play anymore curse you responsibilities.

EDIT: Scratch the whole Viking rant, turns out JFD had the same thought's on Denmark as I.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The great thing about Germany is their UB: the Hanse. It's like the Train Station w/o the Coal or Engineers. It comes earlier and can give you more %Production. But it requires that you put your TRs into CS. Even than you'll still get some good gold out of it.

 

[Dawnbringer]

Time for another tier list since the updates to Vox Populi (July 1, pre-march promotion nerf)! Reminder: This is for PANGAEA map setting on STANDARD pace and STANDARD map size (8 players, 16 CS). Strategic balance.

S+: Poland
S: Mongolia/Zulu/Korea
S-: Japan/Byzantium/Persia/Babylon/Maya/Carthage/Shoshone/Ethiopia/Netherlands
A+: France/Songhai/Iroquois/Sweden/Rome/Ottomans/India/Huns/Inca
A: England/Morocco/Arabia/Celts/Denmark/Russia
A-: Indonesia/Assyria/Egypt/Brazil/Aztec
B+: America/Polynesia/Spain/China/Greece
B: Germany
B-: Portugal
C: Austria/Venice/Siam

Changes:
Basically all city state based civs are now near the bottom (if not absolute bottom). Warmongering civs got a huge boost because AI is now stronger, and thus if you have combat bonuses, it makes the game a lot easier to manage.

After playing Mongolia more, they snowball out of hand way too easily with 6 movement skirmishers (which also ignores ZoC) and a 5 movement GG and horsemen, I think there's very little doubt that they're S tier now (especially since they just wreck ANY diplomacy victory dependent civs, and them alone could annihilate the world congress without much consequences other than their happiness).

With the increased amount of combat, Zulus skyrocketed as well. 10+ promotions on multiple units aren't much of a dream when playing as them.

Note: This is based on my play experiences. It may vary for others.

 

[Gidoza]

Really disagree on your assessment of Hunnic UI - that isn't good! It could be good if I could use the adjacency bonus - but it gets screwed too often by rivers or random resources popping up in just the wrong places. Maybe if it connected resources and could be used near fresh water it would be good.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

My new tier list, updated for 30th July version.
SS+: Egypt.
No weaknesses, best Science, best Culture, great Tourism, Faith, easy wonders, flawless UU.
S: Babylon, Carthage
Carthage just is a gift that never stops giving. Gold diversity bonus is cool, you start very strong, your UNW is great. No flaws, pretty much.
A+: Maya, Poland, Spain, Mongolia, China, Aztec, Korea
Why Spain here?
UB was always awesome, UU is now great at combat and even better than before at settling. Great with God-King due to cities starting at 3 pop, not nearly as good as Aztecs though. Late bloomer but once your Missions are going, they aren't stopping. Prepare to fill half of your land with Great Prophet improvements if you play it right.
Mongolia is simply silly with its units. If you play it right (...and the terrain is right), only other mounted units will reach your units.
A : Byzantium, Ethiopia, Morocco, Zulu, India, Assyria, Celts, Brazil, Rome, Denmark
A-: Indonesia, Inca, Shoshone, Songhai, England, Ottomans, Russia
B+: Netherlands, Persia, Iroquois, Huns, France, Portugal
B: Japan, Polynesia, Greece, America, Sweden, Siam
Sweden pretty much only has the UA. Free March is almost irrelevant because by that time every unit you've used frequently has it already (esp with that free XP), the UB is terrible considering the time it comes. It gives too little, but giving it more would make it broken as it scales with Pop. Tough one to balance.
B-: Germany
D - Venice
There's nothing it does better than anyone else. UBs are a bit weak and, tbh, it wouldn't even be broken if Venice could construct them all (perhaps, in that case, it could unlock the buildings at different techs). Carthage gets almost the same stuff you do but more, a bit less TRs but no flaw of no settling and only puppets, doesn't need to waste GMs to get cities peacefully and gets enough gold to kickstart them insanely. Very fun to play though as it is challenging.

 

[JungleBucks]

Throwing my hat into some civ ranking (certain civs haven't been played in a while, but hopefully I have a solid assessment regardless.)

S: Egypt, Poland, Babylon, Carthage
The burial tomb is really the step up Egypt needed to go from a situationally good civ to what seems like a could be consistently great civ. Poland's Poland, Babylon's Babylon, sky is blue, water's wet. Carthage has some very wonderful gold generation going for it though, and if there's anything I LOVE, it's gaining ridiculous sums of gold.
A+: Korea, Maya, India, Aztec, Byzantium, Brazil
Korea's always been pretty heavy with the science. I'd probably put them higher if it weren't so easy to clear tech gaps thanks to tech trading. Without said feature however (or if they just don't like you so no trading) they might be an S-. Mayans + Tradition + Freedom is downright ridiculous. India's very reliable when it comes to getting a religion to spread like butter, and it's population growth is incontestable, even against China. I've already gushed about the Aztec's in their own thread. I don't get why people are throwing complaints and suggestions for them when there are other civs that need buffs way more, but opinions are opinions. Byzantium's also the most reliable religious civ in my opinion. Not too amazing to make it into S, but reliable with a good UU. Brazil I'll admit I have a bias towards. They're my favorite civ in the game, and Papa Pedro is my spirit animal. Regardless, they're in my opinion the best culture civ around, with a pretty solid UI and an okay I guess new UU (it's better than their old one at least).
A : Mongolia, China, Ethiopia, Spain, Morocco, Zulu, Indonesia, Assyria, Celts, Rome, Danish, England
Mongolia's a strong war civ who's ability makes their job easier. I honestly don't know if that's a good or bad thing though, since simply taking city states means you won't get potential EXP. China's great, but not as impressive as India in my book, though they have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages, and have an easier time going wide if they're religious. I have no real gushings over Ethiopia. They just feel like a lesser science civ, but their GP generation is pretty great. Spain is so damn annoying to try and deal with religiously that I knew they'd be A material, though their UU isn't too amazing in my book. Morocco's a great gold civ that's not as impressive as Carthage, but getting there. The Zulu are ATROCIOUS to fight against late game, and as a war civ, they're probably the best. Their lack of versatility however makes me want to drop them to an A-, but what they do well, they do REALLY well. Indonesia's such a good business civ it's not even funny. I don't even care about their UU (which is okay) I'm all about that monopoly corporation life. Assyria's very tough when they get the ball rolling on their UB, and their science gain is...pretty okay. I wish you could build 3 Seige Towers instead of 2 though, because I've had days where I've attacked multiple cities at once, wishing I could build more ST's but that's a nitpick at most. The Celts are a great religious civ. Just great, not amazing. Rome is fantastic for upkeep in wars, and it's satisfying to take a city and still have enough infrastructure to be worth unpuppeting in the future. The Danish's Berserker is delightful. Probably my favorite UU. They're highly mobile, their UB is great, and they're just all around fun to play as. England...I HATE HATE HATE having you as a neighbor. She's so annoying and unless I completely wipe her out I can't do anything about her stealing until like, TWO WHOLE ERAS. That's what makes her so viable (But seriously, if that woman steals my culture one more time, I'm going to destroy her.)
A-: Russia, Inca, Shoshone, Huns, Songhai, Ottomans
Now Russia's recently gotten a buff that I haven't been able to take advantage of, so maaaybe move her up a notch in the tier list, but for what she is, Russia's my favorite expansionist civ, with a great UU, and an "okay but I wish it would let me expand even harder" UB. I love everything about the Incans and think their UI is the best in game...they're just not as specialized as other civs above them. F$%K THE SHOSHONE STOP BEING MY NEIGHBORS...Anyways the Huns are definitely my favorite war civ with an army that never seems to stop growing and a strong prescience the entire game. If their UU could shoot 2 tiles away, they'd be an immediate S-, but they don't, which is fair considering their time period, and the nature of ranged mounts. Songhai's mobility is amazing, and it's river yields are beautiful, but there's not much else to talk about. The Tanzamat's a great but admittedly underwhelming UA, but the UB and UU are pretty great.
B+: Netherlands, Japan, Iroquois, France, Portugal, Arabia, Persia
The Netherlands remain an enigma when it comes to trading, but no matter what you do with them, they're still going to be pretty great. The polder's amazing by the way. So very pretty too. Japan is SUPER STURDY, with a great UU and UB, but their UA's never been anything to write home about, and maybe their UB could use an additional bonus or two. The Iroquois are amazing when your forest are abundant, but not the best when they're sparse, so they feel pretty middle grounded to me. France's UI feels like the strongest UI in the whole dang game! As for their UA and UU, they're okay, but not that impressive standing against certain other civs. Portugal's recently gotten some buffs here and there, so they may need to be moved, but from my experience, I've never been wowed by their gold generation. Arabia's UA is just plain delightful, and camel archer's never go out of style. The Bazaar's a fair money maker. Persia has a great UA that ties in well with their UU, but they've never been too amazing for me. Regardless, if you manage to extend your golden ages, they're a force to be reckoned with.
B: Polynesia, Greece, America, Sweden, Siam
Polynesia is situational greatness depending on your map, with a lovely UI (that demands your attention from potential resources), and an okay UU. Greece makes the easiest victory even easier to obtain (though their have recently been changes to the required # of delegates, so maybe I can see myself gravitating back to them in the future), but their UB is pretty nice. America, baby, I love ya, I came from ya, ya got a good UA and a great UU, but you have GOT to do something about your UB. I think it's a good fit for you, and I think your two victory duel wielding is cute and I was very excited when I saw it, but even I can admit the Smithsonian isn't great enough to feel worth the extended wait. It's just "okay", but nobody goes this long through a game just for something that's "okay" unless there's something else that really sells the civ. It doesn't even encourage you to pick freedom (which is a nit pick, but still worth mentioning). Do something with your specialist or Great Person generation to make me want that Freedom junk you're always talkin' about, then call me in the morning and we'll talk about moving you to the A's. Sweden's UA and UB are great and don't really need changes in my book, but their UB is so thoroughly underwhelming and comes a bit late for my taste. But there's nothing necessarily wrong with uniques that come late, as long as they feel worth it. Siam's does great with it's diplomacy civ bonuses, but it's UB and UU don't really leave much of an impression.
B-: Austria, Germany
It's never been too hard for me to lose my allies, which is why Austria so thoroughly underwhelms me. Germany's got an amazing UB, an okay UA, and a great, but very late UU. I get that a lot of hate gravitates around late game uniques, but I like em. It helps to keep games interesting. With the increase in required delegates, maybe both of these UA makes them unforeseen gems. I'll need to do a game with them in the future.
C-: Venice
Venice will never escape the bottom barrel outside of the OCC where they shine. Considering the fact that you don't get MoV's in OCC mode, I think that's what one should look for if the suggestion for any buffs where to come. I think providing a ton of growth and culture towards border growth in the City State that it buys would be pretty great. All of this said however, I do think the UB's for Venice are fun, and make the game interesting for it.

 

[Stalker0]

The thing about Persia to me is, by Industrial age you will be in GA forever if you do it right. So they can be a war civ with a permanent +1 move and +15% combat strength. I'm not a war player, but that seems downright awesome to me.

 

[JungleBucks]

The thing about Persia to me is, by Industrial age you will be in GA forever if you do it right. So they can be a war civ with a permanent +1 move and +15% combat strength. I'm not a war player, but that seems downright awesome to me.

You have a good point. They haven't been the best for me, but they can be pretty impressive when you focus on golden age length. Perhaps I'll bump them up to B+ for the tier list.

 

[JungleBucks]

Time for an update. (Note: A lot of this is going to be copy-pasted from the previous tier list posting, but newly added dialogue has been given a change of color to bring note to them.)

S: Egypt, Poland, Babylon, Carthage
The burial tomb is really the step up Egypt needed to go from a situationally good civ to what seems like a could be consistently great civ. Poland's Poland, Babylon's Babylon, sky is blue, water's wet. Poland may see a return to the tippity top however, now that there are less policies required for Wonders...as if grabbing Wonders wasn't easy enough with this guy. Carthage has some very wonderful gold generation going for it though, and if there's anything I LOVE, it's gaining ridiculous sums of gold.
A+: Korea, Maya, India, Aztec, Byzantium, Brazil
Korea's always been pretty heavy with the science. I'd probably put them higher if it weren't so easy to clear tech gaps thanks to tech trading. Without said feature however (or if they just don't like you so no trading) they might be an S-. Mayans + Tradition + Freedom is downright ridiculous. India's very reliable when it comes to getting a religion to spread like butter, and it's population growth is incontestable, even against China. They have recently had a debuff from their amount of pressure by about 10%, but that doesn't seem major enough to move them below A+. I've already gushed about the Aztec's in their own thread. I don't get why people are throwing complaints and suggestions for them when there are other civs that need buffs way more, but opinions are opinions. Byzantium's also the most reliable religious civ in my opinion. Not too amazing to make it into S, but reliable with a good UU. Brazil I'll admit I have a bias towards. They're my favorite civ in the game, and Papa Pedro is my spirit animal. Regardless, they're in my opinion the best culture civ around, with a pretty solid UI and an okay I guess new UU (it's better than their old one at least).
A : Mongolia, China, Ethiopia, Spain, Morocco, Zulu, Indonesia, Assyria, Celts, Rome, Danish, England
Mongolia's a strong war civ who's ability makes their job easier. I honestly don't know if that's a good or bad thing though, since simply taking city states means you won't get potential EXP. China's great, but not as impressive as India in my book, though they have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages, and have an easier time going wide if they're religious. I have no real gushings over Ethiopia. They just feel like a lesser science civ, but their GP generation is pretty great. Spain is so damn annoying to try and deal with religiously that I knew they'd be A material, though their UU isn't too amazing in my book. I may consider moving them to A+ due to the comments of Mr. Swagolo in the Spain thread, but I haven't gotten a new game in with them so I don't want to jump to conclusions. Morocco's a great gold civ that's not as impressive as Carthage, but getting there. The Zulu are ATROCIOUS to fight against late game, and as a war civ, they're probably the best. Their lack of versatility however makes me want to drop them to an A-, but what they do well, they do REALLY well. Indonesia's such a good business civ it's not even funny. I don't even care about their UU (which is okay) I'm all about that monopoly corporation life. Assyria's very tough when they get the ball rolling on their UB, and their science gain is...pretty okay. I wish you could build 3 Seige Towers instead of 2 though, because I've had days where I've attacked multiple cities at once, wishing I could build more ST's but that's a nitpick at most. The Celts are a great religious civ. Just great, not amazing. Rome is fantastic for upkeep in wars, and it's satisfying to take a city and still have enough infrastructure to be worth unpuppeting in the future. The Danish's Berserker is delightful. Probably my favorite UU. They're highly mobile, their UB is great, and they're just all around fun to play as. England...I HATE HATE HATE having you as a neighbor. She's so annoying and unless I completely wipe her out I can't do anything about her stealing until like, TWO WHOLE ERAS. That's what makes her so viable (But seriously, if that woman steals my culture one more time, I'm going to destroy her.)
A-: Russia, Inca, Shoshone, Huns, Songhai, Ottomans
Now Russia's recently gotten a buff that I haven't been able to take advantage of, so maaaybe move her up a notch in the tier list, but for what she is, Russia's my favorite expansionist civ, with a great UU, and an "okay but I wish it would let me expand even harder" UB. I love everything about the Incans and think their UI is the best in game...they're just not as specialized as other civs above them. F$%K THE SHOSHONE STOP BEING MY NEIGHBORS...Anyways the Huns are definitely my favorite war civ with an army that never seems to stop growing and a strong prescience the entire game. If their UU could shoot 2 tiles away, they'd be an immediate S-, but they don't, which is fair considering their time period, and the nature of ranged mounts. Songhai's mobility is amazing, and it's river yields are beautiful, but there's not much else to talk about. The Tanzamat's a great but admittedly underwhelming UA, but the UB and UU are pretty great.
B+: Netherlands, Japan, Iroquois, France, Portugal, Arabia, Persia
The Netherlands remain an enigma when it comes to trading, but no matter what you do with them, they're still going to be pretty great. The polder's amazing by the way. So very pretty too. Japan is SUPER STURDY, with a great UU and UB, but their UA's never been anything to write home about, and maybe their UB could use an additional bonus or two. The Iroquois are amazing when your forest are abundant, but not the best when they're sparse, so they feel pretty middle grounded to me. France's UI feels like the strongest UI in the whole dang game! As for their UA and UU, they're okay, but not that impressive standing against certain other civs. Portugal's recently gotten some buffs here and there, so they may need to be moved, but from my experience, I've never been wowed by their gold generation. Arabia's UA is just plain delightful, and camel archer's never go out of style. The Bazaar's a fair money maker. Persia has a great UA that ties in well with their UU, but they've never been too amazing for me. Regardless, if you manage to extend your golden ages, they're a force to be reckoned with.
B: Polynesia, Greece, America, Sweden, Siam, Austria, Germany, Venice
Polynesia is situational greatness depending on your map, with a lovely UI (that demands your attention from potential resources), and an okay UU. Greece makes the easiest victory even easier to obtain (though their have recently been changes to the required # of delegates, so maybe I can see myself gravitating back to them in the future), but their UB is pretty nice. To make what was effectively a long winded pseudo-rant short, America has a good UA, a great UU, and a fairly unfulfilling UB that comes even later than it's replacement, and doesn't quite feel worth the wait. I suggested an additional scientific bonus to Broadcast Towers as a nod to the Smithsonian Channel in the America thread, but if they never get a buff...I guess I can accept that. Sweden's UA and UB are great and don't really need changes in my book, but their UB is so thoroughly underwhelming and comes a bit late for my taste. But there's nothing necessarily wrong with uniques that come late, as long as they feel worth it. Siam's does great with it's diplomacy civ bonuses, but it's UB and UU don't really leave much of an impression. Originally Austria and Germany were put into B-, as they simply underwhelmed as political figures in my opinion, but in light of recent changes to the number of delegates and the fact that having and keeping allies can now provide additional benefits to building Wonders, I say they're definitely deserving of a higher position. From C- to B Venice has definitely pushed up in my opinion. The colonia is a darn good change and the fact that they can effectively spam MoV's just by doing their job allows Venice to expand way harder than they had in the past. With a UU, UB, UI, and three bonus UB's, it almost seems like they have too much going for them, but of course, there's still the curse of not being able to make new cities which is why I'm just barely not going to put them into the B's nah, I'd say they're B worthy. That said however, I don't think Venice needs any more changes. While they're not the best civ, they have the potential to snowball very hard compared to other civs if used right.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So, update time.
SS: Egypt.
S: Babylon, Carthage, Korea, DENMARK
Why Denmark?

If you can go on a conquest spree, you will be receiving insane culturally productive showers. I'm getting so much Culture in my current game that I'm basically Poland but I get so much Production every city I have has nearly everything. What's not to like?

It would be SS if not for the fact if someone is ahead of you, you may find it hard to use the UB properly. If they also took Defender of the Faith, then they might be even harder to farm for Production and Culture.

The flaw is that Denmark requires a lot of preparation, is very hurt by little to no Iron (in which case your planned Berserker culture+production farm machine might not work) and, unlike other civs of similar power, it doesn't just give you stuff for nothing - you must beat people up if you want some sweet power.

If you get a lucky coincidence that your neighbour Ethiopia gets both Diligence AND Synagogue (for 50 billion bonus production) and decides to spam weak units, you will be very pleased. Seriously, the units just keep coming, I keep killing but they never stop - that's the power of their production (it'll be their downfall).

A+: Maya, Poland, Spain, Mongolia, China, Aztec, Ottomans, Byzantium
Byzantium and Ottomans deserved to get higher up after their buffs (Byzantium didn't get a buff, but many pantheons and beliefs did. Cathedral is now a great pick just like Thrift, Veneration...)
A : Ethiopia, Morocco, Zulu, India, Assyria, Celts, Brazil, Rome, Huns

I've been really not appreciating the Huns enough. The UA is solid, the UI is awesome, the UU is great. What's not to like?

A-: Indonesia, Inca, Shoshone, Songhai, England, Russia, Portugal, Greece
Greece has a meh UU, UA that is hard to make proper use of (but great if you can) and poor man's Jelling Stones that, while much inferior, are still an awesome UB, only beaten by the likes of Burial Tomb and perhaps Colosseum.

While Greece can ball out of control, I find it very hard considering how insanely fanatical some AIs are about CSes. IF you do start balling, then your army is pretty much unbeatable (+20% strength!!!) and every kill gets you 50 billion culture.

The problem is I'd rather play Denmark every time. Vikings are cooler than some weird gelled hair Greeks.

B+: Netherlands, Persia, Iroquois, France, Venice, Sweden
Venice is really much stronger now. No settler expansion means I can't give it anything more though.

B: Polynesia, America, Siam, Germany, Japan

Japan is very much affected by your starting zone - no atolls and fishes means your UA is not worth much. Little to no horses + iron means your Dojo also won't be very impressive because most of the Dojo secret promotions are worth about half of a regular promotion. Samurai is pretty good though.

 

[JungleBucks]

So, update time.
SS: Egypt.
S: Babylon, Carthage, Korea, DENMARK
Why Denmark?

If you can go on a conquest spree, you will be receiving insane culturally productive showers. I'm getting so much Culture in my current game that I'm basically Poland but I get so much Production every city I have has nearly everything. What's not to like?

It would be SS if not for the fact if someone is ahead of you, you may find it hard to use the UB properly. If they also took Defender of the Faith, then they might be even harder to farm for Production and Culture.

The flaw is that Denmark requires a lot of preparation, is very hurt by little to no Iron (in which case your planned Berserker culture+production farm machine might not work) and, unlike other civs of similar power, it doesn't just give you stuff for nothing - you must beat people up if you want some sweet power.

If you get a lucky coincidence that your neighbour Ethiopia gets both Diligence AND Synagogue (for 50 billion bonus production) and decides to spam weak units, you will be very pleased. Seriously, the units just keep coming, I keep killing but they never stop - that's the power of their production (it'll be their downfall).

A+: Maya, Poland, Spain, Mongolia, China, Aztec, Ottomans, Byzantium
Byzantium and Ottomans deserved to get higher up after their buffs (Byzantium didn't get a buff, but many pantheons and beliefs did. Cathedral is now a great pick just like Thrift, Veneration...)
A : Ethiopia, Morocco, Zulu, India, Assyria, Celts, Brazil, Rome, Huns

I've been really not appreciating the Huns enough. The UA is solid, the UI is awesome, the UU is great. What's not to like?

A-: Indonesia, Inca, Shoshone, Songhai, England, Russia, Portugal, Greece
Greece has a meh UU, UA that is hard to make proper use of (but great if you can) and poor man's Jelling Stones that, while much inferior, are still an awesome UB, only beaten by the likes of Burial Tomb and perhaps Colosseum.

While Greece can ball out of control, I find it very hard considering how insanely fanatical some AIs are about CSes. IF you do start balling, then your army is pretty much unbeatable (+20% strength!!!) and every kill gets you 50 billion culture.

The problem is I'd rather play Denmark every time. Vikings are cooler than some weird gelled hair Greeks.

B+: Netherlands, Persia, Iroquois, France, Venice, Sweden
Venice is really much stronger now. No settler expansion means I can't give it anything more though.

B: Polynesia, America, Siam, Germany, Japan

Japan is very much affected by your starting zone - no atolls and fishes means your UA is not worth much. Little to no horses + iron means your Dojo also won't be very impressive because most of the Dojo secret promotions are worth about half of a regular promotion. Samurai is pretty good though.

Fair list. I'd say Egypt's power is a little over-rated, but they're definitely still a contender for strongest civ, and Germany doesn't seem that bad now that there have been some recent diplomacy changes, but aside from this, I agree with a lot of your tier list.


It's nice to see with the recent update that lower spectrum civs are getting something much needed attention. Now I'm just crossing my fingers for something to be done about Germany and America. I really want to do a "Make America Great Again" joke right now, but to be honest America's never been that great of a civ in the first place.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

S+: Egypt.
S: Babylon, Carthage, Korea, Denmark
A+: Maya, Poland, Mongolia, China, Aztec, Ottomans, Byzantium, GREECE, SIAM, CELTS, ENGLAND

Okay, I've not been appreciating GREECE enough.

Acropolis was good, but now it is awesome. From being inferior to Jelling, it is... Still inferior, but more of a sidegrade. You trade -1 Culture (compared to replacement) -5 Production per kill -10% GP rate for 2 Tourism and basically Walls (as well as less Danger unhappiness because more Defence). Not the worst trade.

Your UA can make you unstoppable with enough CS allies too. Great.

Basically, Greece is Denmark but it trades gain from conquest (no city attack gold, no production from kills) for having more "possibilities" as well as potentially much easier fights both in defense (+10 Def per city) and offense (up to 20% strength). Greece can get into a Tourism victory much easier. I still prefer the Danish though. Hairgel Men are inferior to Vikings, which can be scientifically proven.

SIAM also got a lot. Wat am I talking about, you might ask - well, the Wat. It is almost as good as Burial Tomb and comes only a bit later, but it does require you to spend some more Production to get all the stuff it offers.

Celts? I've been underrating them. Their weird UB thing is cool, the UU is great, the UA is one of the best, if not THE best in the game. Almost as versatile as Byzantine, if not better.

ENGLAND's spy being impossible to counter early means that you not only reduce your nearby enemy's strength (so you can conquer/defeat/whatever him), you also buff yourself by getting lots of Science every second turn while simultaneously destroying his GPs, etc. The UB is nice, the UU is great. Late, but good.

A : Ethiopia, Morocco, Zulu, India, Assyria, Brazil, Rome, Huns


B+: Indonesia, Inca, Shoshone, Songhai, Russia, Portugal, Polynesia

Polynesia is here. It depends on luck on the map just like Japan, it also has many opportunities... Maybe it should be higher, maybe it should even be in the top tier, but I don't know.


B: Netherlands, Persia, Iroquois, France, Venice, Sweden, Germany, America, JAPAN

Germany and America got buffs.

AMERICAN UB is now more like a late UB should be. It is no longer pretty much a Burial Tomb 3 eras later that requires a Museum in every city to be a Burial Tomb. MUH FREEDOMS

GERMANY gets way more gold. Neat, really neat. Maybe it should be even higher up, I need to play some more Bismarck to tell.

Changing JAPAN's position. It sort of got improved. While the UA is still unreliable and either broken or useless (I really think it should be changed...), Samurai is better than before.

Why? Dojo promos are much stronger now (don't know WHEN they were buffed as th last patch notes don't mention them, but oh boy they're good now), between 2-3 times better than before. Sincerity with Samurai Quick Study gives a Samurai 10 xp (!) every hit he makes. It takes him 2-3 swings to level up, and I got him fast double hit in turn thing. That's awesome. Even the Zulu are green with envy at how fast this guy became a truck straight out of anime. He can level up faster than an electronic rabbit.

Of course Dough Joe shares the same flaw as the UA and almost the entire Japan - unreliability. You might get something awesome like +15% strength outside borders, or you might get +15% strength in your borders. If you play Japan, you should be on the offensive because you gain nothing from being a defensive weakling - granted, it IS probably a great promotion for your garrisons, by which I mean anyone but Samurai.

Dojo itself is probably worse than before. If you got even one Iron or Horse on the old one, then it was outright better than the current one. Still on many lucky starts Dojo will give less Production and Culture than you would've gotten otherwise, but at least it's now the only reliable thing Japan has so it's okay.

Basically with Japan making anime real is easy with a good start, but if both Sea Stuff and Iron aren't present and the RNGesus is not virtuous to you when it comes to Virtues, you are by far the worst civ in the game with almost no UA, no UU and only a great UB that is not as great as other great UBs of its era or, well, even an era earlier.

...But let's be honest, who doesn't reroll with Japan when they start with no Fish/Atolls in sight? I know it's probably not fair, but I am not a man of fairness. It's annoying that VP hates rerolling maps and crashes half the time when doing so, but at least you can get a good game thanks to doing so.

So basically Dojo promotions are better, Dojo is in some cases better, in some worse because the culture upon unit construction is not very impressive. By medieval, Greece/Denmark get so much culture from killing anything, they laugh in Japan's face with their superior UBs, I overrated Japan before so I edit the post.

There's one cheese tactic though that'd make Japan go back to A or even higher as I put it before edit. Rush Dojo, delay Scouts obsoletion and just make them in every Barracks+Dojo city while removing them to make yourself go through policy tree much faster, but the moment scouts are out of equation and units start costing 200 production each (on Epic), it's only slightly better than the regular Production-to-Culture option, and it's still worse than what Greece+Denmark can do doing if they find a unit spammy neighbour.

 

[Galbias]

Byzantium always seemed like a weaker, or at best mid-tier Civ to me. Ability to always found religion isn't terribly useful and they don't get anything to help them get started ASAP in the religious race which is the most important thing so you can spread your religion and get all the benefits that come with that like Reformation beliefs, extra WC votes, etc.

So the main things you have are an extra belief (very useful), ability to choose from beliefs already in other religions (mildly useful), Cataphract (situationally useful, but fairly mediocre UU overall with no benefits that can be passed down afaik), and the UB (good chunk of extra faith starting in the middle stages of the religious war). Also, in retrospect, I'm not sure if the bonus belief is follower-only or if it could be Enhancer/Reformation too, that would certainly make a difference.


Also, I'd always kind of written Egypt off in earlier versions as a pretty weak Civ since I usually play on Emperor or Immortal where getting most Wonders is a crapshoot (though VP has more National Wonders than BNW which I'm guessing still benefit), but the fact that Burial Tombs now effectively give you 3 faith 5 science 7 culture 2 tourism in addition to the normal effects is really nice if I'm reading things right (in addition to the bonuses on regular Landmarks/Artifacts). Not sure if the extra science and culture is enough to get them competitive in the Wonder game but even if not those are some good bonuses.

...But let's be honest, who doesn't reroll with Japan when they start with no Fish/Atolls in sight? I know it's probably not fair, but I am not a man of fairness. It's annoying that VP hates rerolling maps and crashes half the time when doing so, but at least you can get a good game thanks to doing so.

For civs that are dependent on specific terrain or features I'd consider restarting to get those features to be relatively fair. Of course, Japan is problematic in that area because you can't actually see Fish until the right technology and I rarely ever see Atolls in capital range, there are sea luxuries too but they're not too common.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Byzantium always seemed like a weaker, or at best mid-tier Civ to me. Ability to always found religion isn't terribly useful and they don't get anything to help them get started ASAP in the religious race which is the most important thing so you can spread your religion and get all the benefits that come with that like Reformation beliefs, extra WC votes, etc.

The trade-route spread buff on their Temple UB spreads their religion like a cockroach infestation in a Chicago slum. They can double-down on, say, Ritual and Texts and basically get their religion in any city they want.

 

[Dawnbringer]

Personal Tier list update. Reminder: This is for PANGAEA map setting on STANDARD pace and STANDARD map size (8 players, 16 CS). Strategic balance. (Oct 9th Version, pre-authority nerf)

S+: Songhai/Zulu/Carthage/Aztec/Egypt
S: Persia/Celts/Huns/Mongolia/Poland/Iroquois/Greece
S-: Inca/Shoshone/Rome/Babylon
A+: Denmark/Polynesia/Netherlands/Japan/Indonesia/Germany/Ethiopia
A: France/Korea/England/India/Morocco/Ottomans/Sweden
A-: Assyria/Maya/Russia
B+: Arabia/America/Spain/Venice
B: Byzantium/China
B-: Portugal/Austria/Siam/Brazil

Changes:
Songhai with the UU swap to ancient era 18 CS makes it the best early game dominant civ. Conquest with Askia is so easy now (especially with the new barbs feeding you culture[assuming authority start] on top of your UA). 10 CS spearmen just won't make these guys flinch, especially if they're from the same era.

Zulu is also another civ that benefited greatly from the barb changes. Faster levels with more combat and that means faster culture/science (which were Shaka's weaknesses before he could get impi going), now Zulu is threatening before they get impis, and when they get to the impi...I think it's game over for certain usually unless your units didn't survive early on, which is REALLY hard.

Carthage is S+ for her consistency and reliability. You can always be competitive with her as long as you settle coastal cities and that'll give you city connections immediately (thus making her the queen of progress, and also the one that always takes god of commerce and that'll pretty much guarantee her religion). On top of that, she can get her cities up quickly or get her defences quickly with that UA gold on founding cities.

Montezuma see barbarians. Sees sacrifices. LOTS of sacrifices. Monte happy. Monte cries tears of joy, enough for a river for some floating gardens.

Ramses loves barbarian slavery. They may not build stonehenges, but sure as hell they'll build whatever's after that. Then, he likes to put the barbarians in these things named sarcophagus in that burial tomb and call it a piece of art.

General S tier civs: Poland is the unique one here for the conditions of S tier, they're still broken because of how strong their UA is. Their UU and UB are still good (hell, ducal stable is GREAT, more production and gold AND bonus exp?) Their UU comes late, but it's still a powerhouse. The rest of the civs has either a UU to deal with the early barbs so they don't need to invest as heavily into units, or they are one of those that take authority and benefit from it greatly. Denmark just missed the mark because Jelling stones is on the opposite end from their berserkers, which comes a little too late after the barb parties.

Civs that took a big drop:
Byzantium: Oh how far my favourite has fallen...because her cataphract is actually a knight now, her early game reliability is gone and she's at the mercy of those party-loving barbarians. Better pray that there isn't an India close by that found before you, or a certain spanish woman knocking on your door after the barbarian parties. I'm sure her chinese roommate agrees that they're at least (mildly) better than those diplomatic losers at the very bottom! Oh, and that random old dude that thinks he's the life of the party when he has next to nothing going for him now.

Korea: Suplexed out of S tier. With tradition now a little less competitive, and all those barbarians bugging Sejong, he can't concentrate on studying.

Maya: I heard barbarians like to raid temples. Especially ones with special names like "Kuna." Heard there were lots of loot in those things just like every MMO. The janitor Atlatlist comes a little too late to help with the early mess.

Edit: Moved Polynesia down from S-. While their Moai is awesome, it's really terrain dependent and extremely vulnerable to barbs. They're still strong, but I overrated them just a tad and thus moved them down.

Note: This is based on my play experiences. It may vary for others.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Is this discussion based only on how good the civs are in human hands or also how good they are in AI's hands?

 

[Dawnbringer]

It's based on player usage and their experiences.