Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jan 11, 2015.
I would assume human hands too. How well an AI does is also affected by their personality, so any results will also be skewed by that (in vanilla, AI Hiawatha usually does very well despite Iroquois being one of the worst Civs because he focuses heavily on expansion and science). VP is more balanced so that's probably not quite as much of a factor, but it still counts for something.
Its interesting how many people underestimate Germany at the moment.
Before Hanse buff it was ok civ, but now its a pure beast.
Only my post is up to date right now. The posts before are older than the Sept 30 version, which had quite a number of changes itself.
I think I rated them pretty highly, and I was even thinking maybe too high. In my experiences, it wasn't that hard getting a couple of city state alliances early with the barb swarms now (I always take authority on Germany for the quests), and getting culture + science is pretty good, along with the bonus of votes. But honestly, the S tiers above Germany are a cut above due to their earlier game impact. Germany takes time to get to its UU and UB, but other civs have the option of warring Bismark during their power spikes.
SS+:Songhai : A really good UA that can be one of the best with lots of rivers, arguably the best UB in the game that contains +3 Prod, +Lots Of Culture, ability to TR production AND half of the Roman UA in the ancient era. I'm surprised I didn't really look at that one before - it's deceptively powerful. Mandeks eat stuff alive and are absolutely broken, but they will get a nerfhammer.
SS: Polynesia: By far the best UI in the game, great UA, decent UU, easy to find others to sell your luxuries to.
S+: Egypt - everything's great to awesome.
S: Babylon, Carthage, Korea, Denmark, Aztec, Arabia
Aztec thrive in the new version. LOTS of Faith and Gold is what you get from the very beginning. Jaguar is stronger now that it can really be necessary, UB was always one of the best after the buff.
I've forgotten about Arabia for a long time! It's a good source of Culture + Science, and nobody can generate more GPs than you if you go Tradition into Aesthetics. Pacal's gonna be jelly.
A+: Maya, Poland, Mongolia, China, Ottomans, GREECE
A: SIAM, CELTS, ENGLAND, JAPAN, HUNS, PORTUGAL, MOROCCO, GERMANY
Japan's got a very, very slow starting UA that is great once it gets going. The UU kicks ass, so does the Dojo. The only problem is second/third Virtue chance might be wasted if you get bad luck and the RNG'd promo is the same as the first one, in which case the ability doesn't stack - you just get nothing. So if a Benevolence guy gets another Benevolence, his second promo is wasted.
Portugal's way stronger than some think. Easy early gold+science+access to GGP/GAP is nothing to sneeze at. Feitoria in and out of your lands gets progressively stronger. It's never as good as Moai despite coming 2+ eras later, but after its renaissance upgrades its good. Same with Morocco. Both are critically underrated for no reason.
Germany is very strong. The UB rocks, Panzer is too late, the UA is strong if you can please CSs (forces you to go statecraft but, imho, doesn't fit Germany at all)
B+: Ethiopia, Zulu, India, Brazil, Rome
All roads lead Rome to this spot. I've been overrating those guys. The UU is nothing special, the UB is admittedly great and will lead to lategame perma Golden Age if fighting (still easily doable with Piety and some GA lengthening resources), but the UA is just okay. The building stuff is helpful but underwhelming, not losing buildings on conquest is great, keeping uniques is great, but in this mod almost everything's at least good anyway and the gap between civs is never unsurmoutanble. Carried by the Colosseum.
B: Indonesia, Inca, Shoshone, Netherlands, Russia, Venice, Byzantium
Byzantium has a terrible UU (will get buffed?), really meh UB and a great UA with some awesome flexibility. While I consider the UA to really be good and think Byzantium can be higher up in many cases, remember that your enemies ALSO get the benefits of your religion if it spreads and if you don't let it spread, you won't get reformation (unless you're absurdly wide+tall, which can happen) and the Holy Site effects.
Still, you just can't consider a civ whose UA can make you get +1 Gold per citizen underpowered.
Russia's solid, but its stuff is all late.
B: Persia, Iroquois, France, Sweden, America
Not sure why Persia never seems to get any love, I always have a great game when I play as them, the UU is awesome IMHO.
But I rated them at the top of my S tiers...no love indeed.
He got Indonesia (which has always been top 5) as a B. He got Byzantium as a B despite the fact that the only thing that has changed about them is their once worthless UU is now another worthless UU. I wouldn't put that much stock into his rating, they usually only serve as another place to cry about how overpowered the things he doesn't like are.
Yes you did. I completely missed that. Must be the difference in formatting of the two lists. Good to know Darius is getting some love.
Nah, it's just difference between tiers is pretty marginal (that's why I almost always say how everything is great or good, but the civ still lands in B), and I did mention I've reconsidered my position on them. Basilica used to be better, but the UBs of similar time period got either buffed (Dojo) or moved there (Wat), making it seem more underwhelming in comparison. For me, it's a worse Poland. Also, stuff is subjective by definition.
I mean Dojo will give you, if fighting and managing to keep units alive, similar Faith, as well as Culture AND Science on top of that. And Dojo isn't even overpowered or anything, there's better UBs (not for Japan though, it synergises well).
Also please kindly stuff your behind with your passive-aggressive input. I do really hate people who overuse words "crying" and "whine", but at least they help me by marking themselves as annoyances.
And Persia-wise, tbh I played them a bit like 3 months ago but every time I did, I didn't feel cool. I mean, I can get a permanent GA with Rome much easier - just fight, once it scales up in Medieval/Renaissance/Industrial and/or you have 10-20 cities you're pretty much up for a permanent GA and more GGs than you can count, doubly so once you can buy Artists with Faith - and even without Rome, I can get industrial permaGA if I get resource lengtheners + some good faith generator like Ancestor Worship. Without Piety I couldn't do it, sure, but I go Piety every game anyway because I find not going wide boring.
Sure, no movement and CS, but there's also no GGs/GAs, that great Building-kept-on-conquest thing is gone and no Culture+Production can be found on the UBs, and Happiness isn't a problem to me anyway as soon as I get the unclean people event while having it above 10 only serves for GAs AFAIK, and those aren't a problem... Sure, War Weariness can make me go unhappy, but besides that I'm fine.
Personal Tier list update. Reminder: This is for PANGAEA map setting on STANDARD pace and STANDARD map size (8 players, 16 CS). Strategic balance. (Oct 19th B Version)
Notes on this patch:
Carthage is now undisputed queen. Since there were heavy nerfs to Askia, she rose to the top. She remains the absolute most consistent civ with the biggest edge, as long as she gets a coastal start(which she has the bias for). There are just many things that favour her right away just like askia, except she has far more flexibility being able to go tradition, progress (still the best overall, and she's extremely good with it because she gets instant city connections as long as they aren't on different bodies of water), and authority. Her founding city gold remains her strongest stability point, being able to buy a turn 1 scout (and if you spawned near a suitable forest tile, followed with a turn 2 scout as well) and then having early access to ruins means she has a huge head start compared to everyone else. Having a free lighthouse also guarantees that every shoreline will give 3 food 1 gold start (more if there are fishes and luxuries) which means her growth will almost always be better than most (only exception being floodplains wheat). Just can't top that consistency.
Songhai is still an early game powerhouse bully. Though his mandelukes got nerfed to horsemen CS, it still ignores city penalty, which is significant in the early game before walls. He'll still wreck, but he does need to put a tiny amount more of effort into it.
Poland's back on top of S because tradition was buffed. He's also one of the flexible civs that benefited from the tradition buffs (doesn't really need to take it though). However, he still doesn't reach the top level, but he's very VERY close again.
Arabia skyrocketed in the charts. The tradition buffs gave them the most tools to become the ultimate runaway tourism civ (though event tourism was nerfed, he still gets a lot of them. I just came out of a game where I was influential to all civs at around turn 180 and I had to WAIT for the victory condition to become available on turn 221). With the right tools, he's over the top insane (granted, it was a dream start with like 6+ spirit of the desert tiles and I got flood plains incense allowing me to grab pretty early religion). I think it's because they get the possible great spirit of the desert starts that edge them over at this moment.
Korea also benefited from tradition buffs. However, I'd like to remind everyone that their main victory type is right now the slowest in the game and is the hardest to compete with the AI for since they have lower science needs and tech requirements. So they're actually a mini-arabia, thus it's not the greatest. You might wonder why there is a big gap between Korea and Babylon even though they play nearly the same, and that's because at least babylon can defend themselves better early on and has a good industry-ish type of UA. Korea takes a bit to get online.
China went up in rankings because of tradition as well.
Brazil enjoyed the buffs. But unfortunately, I still don't like how pedro struggles inside his jungles early on. It's just really hard for him to improve his resources early (since remove jungle tech is at iron working), this generally works against pedro the most, just like the mayans.
Byzantium's cataphracts are now a little stronger, but she still remains as a jack of all trades, master of none type of girl. Well, she's a master of religion, but this isn't civ 6 where religion is a win condition.
Venice also was moved down because I actually find that the lack of a monopoly usually hurts them a lot more than I thought.
Actually think this is selling them short. Event tourism is still over-all up compared to the pre-buff levels and often forgot is how much the buff to trade-route tourism actually helped him, as the bazaar unlocks trade-route tourism earlier as well as making it stronger (also makes it easier to hit those guys on the other side of the pangaea).
problem with Ai Arabia is, that they never go Tradition. I had Rashid in game maybe every 2nd game, always he goes for authority and is bottom civ. but thats offtopic.
Though I think you may be right, I'm hesitant to put them any higher. Early game for them is a little sketchy, and the reason I had that massive lead again was due to a massive advantageous location and good luxury resource with tons of resources on desert tiles (thus snowballing with spirit of the desert). S- is still pretty strong overall, but I'll play them a few more times to make sure I'm ranking them properly.
I've thought about this a lot, is there any reason remove jungle needs to be that deep considering some civs have a jungle bias? Marshes are even worse, it's not as much of an issue because I don't think there's a marsh bias for any civ and marshes don't appear that often, but if your starting luxuries are sugar on marshes you're taking a detriment in possible trading and happiness for a very long time and take even longer to get a monopoly on it.
Apparently the policies taken by the AI are random. I've seen Tradition Arabia once or twice, and they do really well. The AI also doesn't seem to factor policies into its goals either, an aggressive civ will be just as likely to DOW everyone with progress as with authority and a more peaceful civ who goes authority will pretty much always fall behind.
The AI does factor things in, but there's still a weighted choice at the end. Sounds like bad luck.
Giving some updated feedback after a long time away.
S: Egypt, Poland, Babylon, Carthage, HUNS, AZTEC
The Huns feel like absolute monsters thanks to the increase in barbarian spawning. I already loved them in the past, but now...JEEZ! In fact, all civs who get bonuses from killing are basically buffed, leaving cultural diplomatic civs further in the dust.
A+: Korea, Maya, India, Brazil, POLYNESIA, SONGHAI, ZULU
Blah blah blah, Moai blah blah. I don't even really need to talk about Polynesia at this point because a certain, swaggy users already talked plenty about them. I love their sea resource bonus though. It really incentives me to take tiny islands when I see them.
A : Mongolia, China, Ethiopia, Spain, Morocco, Indonesia, Assyria, Celts, Rome, Danish, England
A-: Russia, Inca, Shoshone, Ottomans, JAPAN, BYZANTIUM
I was skeptical about Japan, and I'll admit I'm still not fond of being able to outright block tourism, but it's a pretty good new UA for Japan. I think Japan needs something to help compensate for the enemy trade route bonuses they miss out on, like internal route bonuses or bonuses from mutual trade routes, but aside from that, they're okay. They may deserve to be moved a little higher.
I used to rank Byzantium higher, but she honestly doesn't feel too great compared to other civs that get their religion off. The UA is still pretty good, but the rest is just...meh.
B+: Netherlands, Japan, France, Portugal, Arabia, Persia, AMERICA, GERMANY, AUSTRIA
America gaining golden age points from tile purchases are nice, but considering it doesn't scale per era (IIRC), and golden ages get more expansive subsequently, it doesn't seem as good of a buff as I thought, especially since early golden ages aren't that great in the first place. (Seems like I'm always complaining about America when I show up). The Smitshonian DOESN'T need anymore buffs, so I believe a better buff would be something involving tile purchases. Just throwing it out there, ENEMY TILE BONUSES WOULD BE NEAT! I always think of those tiles as native reservations, similar to the many that are found across America, so maybe they could get a culture and/or gold bonus or fat globs of flat culture. Nothing says "America" like getting culture thanks to what you stole from other civilizations.
Austria, you're still not that great, but I have newfound respect for your UA, because dang it, some of these enemy diplo civs get awfully troublesome. With the kind of influence you can gain early from barb quest, solidifying your hold in a City-State seems easier now if you don't miss your chance.
B: Greece, Sweden, Siam, Venice (?), IROQUOIS
It seems like the more I use the Iroquois, the less fond of them I become. I blame bad map placement and a lack of forest in certain areas. There was a good jungle/forest start I had once however, and that was AMAZING. But moments like those are few and far between.
Venice might deserve to be higher. When they get momentum, they're easily A+ material, but if they can't get momentum, they're B- at best. Settling them in B or B+ just feels right.
I know it's totally subjective, but how can anyone rate India and Brazil in 2nd best tier and Greece in worst. Any justification for Brazil being actually good? They have worst UU in the game, they will usually have like 7-8 tiles for their UI (on standard) and UA kicks in very late.
Well, while I ranked both much more reasonably IMHO, I - a certain user of considerable swagginess - can see Brazil being there.... If RNGsus allows.
Like, if some of my games I'm surrounded by nothing but jungle (and promptly restart, because it's not fun to have to take 1 turn for 1 move everywhere) I was playing Brazil, it'd be an A or even S-tier civ. But whenever you play Brazil, the mapscript understands you need to start near only 1 jungle tile surrounded by forest with bananas on it to properly enjoy the game. The UA does allow you to get some fast gold-science benefits from trade routes, too. Not Portugal/Morrocco tier, nope, but still.
Greece being that low is just weird though. Everything is at least good and most of the stuff hits harder because it's also simply annoying to face. The UA is one of the best, like I still remember how Hoplites held their own against my Tercio because of their +20% bonus (...and resistance bonus, because I've had like 3 capitals at that point), the UB is theoretically a poor man's Jelling but it's also more annoying to fight against because it's also secretly a WALL and because Greek units can all get +20% CS allowing AIxander to properly use the building. The UU is only okay, that's the flaw, though it does have some cool unique promos for your future Tercio - and it's still better than the Legion which pretty much sucks.
How does Brazil UA help trade routes?
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