General Leader Discussion

[Enrico Swagolo]

How does Brazil UA help trade routes?

Basically Tourism levels. Depending on your civs popularity, your trade routes gain Gold and Science (and IIRC City Growth?) for international trade routes to those civs you have influenced in such a way.

 

[infidel88]

Ok, but that's like 1/2s per turn once you get really high influence. And I don't think it's scaling with era. And you're losing those precious caravans to feed your tradition based cities. And you don't get any early tourism sources as Brazil except for that one golden era you may be lucky to get. You want to go for science win? No tools. Domination? No tools. Diplo? Guess what If you play building game on Price, sure it's a great civ and it still requires you to reroll start couple of times usually. I'd rather play... anyone.

 

[Dawnbringer]

Personal Tier list update. Reminder: This is for PANGAEA map setting on STANDARD pace and STANDARD map size (8 players, 16 CS). Strategic balance. (Oct 28th Version)

S+: Carthage/Egypt/Songhai/Aztec/Zulu
S: Poland/Persia/Mongolia/Huns/Celts/Greece
S-: Inca/Shoshone/Rome/Babylon/Iroquois/Arabia/Korea
A+: Denmark/Polynesia/France/Netherlands/Indonesia/Germany/Ethiopia
A: Ottomans/China/Japan/India/Morocco/Sweden/Assyria
A-: Maya/Russia/England
B+: Byzantium/Spain
B: America/Brazil/Austria/Venice
B-: Portugal/Siam

Notes on this patch:
Minor changes other than Korea. I gave them a run again and I felt that I was pretty wrong about them struggling since they get a crapton of science with GP. I think they're easily one of the better runaway civs if barbs and neighbours don't bug you enough.

Assyria moved up a little. Having those level 3s-level 4s immediately from the city really helps starting in the renaissance era (if you went tradition, otherwise, you'll have to build up those great works slowly). However, Ashurbanipal is kind of an odd playstyle since he needs to go tradition for his UA benefits, but he should also be hyper aggressive for conquering bonuses. The balance of the two is pretty delicate, but effective if you can get that right.

About the recent discussion about Brazil: My starts with brazil are still subpar. The jungles are really annoying to get through, and it takes a while to even get the resources from the jungle tiles (spices, cocoa, dyes, and even gems. Only ok lux is the truffles). And to top it off, jungle terrain usually doesn't provide many hammers early which hampers your starts even further (and this is from a guy who plays with strategic balance). He has one of the worse (if not the worse) UU, and also his UI is fairly inconsequential early because it adds 2g/1c (which the 1c is hardly enough to justify the investment). Pedro just has really poor starts and doesn't really get much to assist him. He's just overshadowed by nearly every other tradition based civ (or progress based ones too).

 

[Funak]

I've tried giving Brazil a shot multiple times but I just never spawn near jungle for some reason.
On a completely separate note, Brazil without jungle are pretty mediocre.

 

[JungleBucks]

I know it's totally subjective, but how can anyone rate India and Brazil in 2nd best tier and Greece in worst. Any justification for Brazil being actually good? They have worst UU in the game, they will usually have like 7-8 tiles for their UI (on standard) and UA kicks in very late.

Brazil is pretty darn good if they have a good start to support them, buuut maybe it's my own personal bias messing with my rating. (Because despite how often I complain about America, Brazil's my favorite civ.)

Greece being that low is just weird though.

Now that I think about it, why DID I rank Greece so low? I remember having a justified reason in the past, but I haven't played as them in quite a while, so I guess I just never considered moving them from where they were last time. You do raise solid points though. Maybe I should move them up to B+, or maybe A-.

 

[Gazebo]

I think people underestimate Portugal and Siam. Siam's yields are great if you keep a few CS allies, and Portugal's early science (and large number of GG/GA) give them a potent early military.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Ok, but that's like 1/2s per turn once you get really high influence. And I don't think it's scaling with era. And you're losing those precious caravans to feed your tradition based cities. And you don't get any early tourism sources as Brazil except for that one golden era you may be lucky to get. You want to go for science win? No tools. Domination? No tools. Diplo? Guess what If you play building game on Price, sure it's a great civ and it still requires you to reroll start couple of times usually. I'd rather play... anyone.

I'm not saying it's the best thing in the game, but it exists and works as a sweetener of sort. You don't need early internal routes that much, IIRC external ones grant +X% growth?

I think people underestimate Portugal and Siam. Siam's yields are great if you keep a few CS allies, and Portugal's early science (and large number of GG/GA) give them a potent early military.

I agree, I ranked Portugal and Siam higher, though I find it weird Morocco gets 4/4/4 of better yields (Culture >>> Science, GAP >>> GG/GA points after the first GG/GA is spawned) , though I get that it is forced to send its trade routes internationally - on the other hand, even others sending you TRs count, (or did 50 billion versions ago) so that is more of a sidegrade.

What sucks about Portugal is the Feitoria needs 3 different renaissance techs to properly be how a rare UI which comes on the latest tech with such requirements should (coast, can't be on resources, can't be next to itself), but on the other hand it also adds all those yields to the trade routes to CS's after it's Nao'd, which basically means your international routes CS also act as if you sent an internal route to the city. You're pretty much Venice if you think about it - until the AI decides to vote against CS trading that is. Or unless the AI decides to eat some CS's, which actually happens in VP.
But to be honest being weird is the case with most medieval UIs except Kasbah - after all those plentiful buffs to ALL the ancient era UIs, often an ancient era UI might provide similar yields (thanks to tech buffs), way earlier but on much more tiles as all the late UIs have weird requirements that severely limit the amount of space they can be put on. Again, except Kasbah.

I think Chateau and Fetoria could both use a buff because it's pretty sad an Eki and Terrace (not gonna talk about Coastal Heads of Considerable Size to not be monothematic) can both be better or at least comparable to Chateau, and they pretty much are better than Feitoria until it gets its three Renaissance upgrades, at which point it becomes arguably the best UI - unless Ekis have lots of adjacencies and the mapscript didn't like rivers and other stuff much, in which case they rule supreme.

 

[Meticulous]

I'm curious about people's thoughts on the Celts. They seem to always rate pretty highly for everyone, why is that? Just their versatility? Their ability to essentially never have a bad start, since they can adapt their pantheon to anything? I'd think the UU faith generation with increased barbarian spawns helps them out, but people were rating them high before the increased barb rates. They seem very average to me overall, I've always been disappointed in them in vanilla and in VP they're one of the few civs that has consistently felt dull to me, and I've always been sad about that because I've got a great interest in Celtic history. And also redheads.

 

[Strigvir]

They can get access to UU (which has higher base CS, 20% on top of that, double movement in hills and free pillage) after the first tech and faith gain from UA is higher than most of normal pantheons, which means relatively easy religion. Border blob strat is absolutely ridiculous for celts, partly because UA blocks your religion from spilling on City-States and neighbours.
AI plays them poorly though, both in pictish warrior rush and actual beliefs pick for the religion.

 

[Galbias]

Why would not spreading your religion be a good thing? I guess spreading it more would give the additional border growth belief to nearby AI/CS and increasing the competition for tiles, but the Celts version doesn't actually give additional border growth rate afaik. It does give Culture on border growth but that's probably not quite as impactful. Kinda tempted to try that strategy with them now.

I always saw the "no foreign pressure" trait as more of a negative than a positive, when playing the religious game you want your religion spread to as many cities as possible normally. It would be mildly nice if you have an obnoxious neighbor with Ritual, which happens half the time in my games, but the other half it seems like it would do more harm than good.

 

[Gazebo]

Why would not spreading your religion be a good thing? I guess spreading it more would give the additional border growth belief to nearby AI/CS and increasing the competition for tiles, but the Celts version doesn't actually give additional border growth rate afaik. It does give Culture on border growth but that's probably not quite as impactful. Kinda tempted to try that strategy with them now.

I always saw the "no foreign pressure" trait as more of a negative than a positive, when playing the religious game you want your religion spread to as many cities as possible normally. It would be mildly nice if you have an obnoxious neighbor with Ritual, which happens half the time in my games, but the other half it seems like it would do more harm than good.

Because by not spreading your faith, your neighbors can never have your sweet, sweet pantheon. So those pantheons-on-steroids are all for the Celts only.

G

 

[Strigvir]

Not every religion combo needs to spread like cancer. You can ignore pressure-related beliefs since other religions won't be able to overwhelm you anyway. Also you will always have Crusader Spirit/Defender of the Faith working at full power.
As for additional border growth, the amount of tiles is limited, so having better yields per grab trumps more grabs at any day. While neighbour cities aren't much of problem, since you can raze them (which also makes border blob a religious cleansing playstyle, and celtic border blob - ethnic cleansing), every City-State tile expansion is irreversibly less yields for you. And since you will be razing cities, you can double the yields of Apostolic Tradition/Council of Elders by first converting the city in the middle of razing and then the true celtic city.

 

[Galbias]

Those are fair points, I suppose, but losing out on a Reformation belief is a sacrifice too. Unless you manage Cathedral of St Basil, which I either can never get, or never need, or unless you just conquer until you have 20% of the world's population, which seems a little much.

Then again, St. Basil might be sort of workable if you go specifically for it, and you can probably get a good amount of extra Culture out of Epona (the border growth one) if you go for border blobbing. Tempted to try it now.

 

[infidel88]

They seem very average to me overall, I've always been disappointed in them in vanilla and in VP they're one of the few civs that has consistently felt dull to me, and I've always been sad about that because I've got a great interest in Celtic history. And also redheads.

Celts are a proof the earlier you get your UU, the stronger you are. On Epic and Marathon they are a powerhouse, allowing you to enhance your religion before anyone creates their own. Just get one point into authority (it will pay for itself, no worries), start pumping pictish warriors and get all this free culture along with gold from camps and faith. Now:
- take Morrigan if you want to go full authority and kill everyone, clearing all barb camps with picts will get you even more culture, gold to buy more warriors, faith and useless GA points Get thrift + cathedrals to support your army, kill neighbors and quit game by medieval as you'll be so far ahead;
- take Epona, 2xtradition, tribute and 2xprogress if you want to do borderblob;

Other beliefs like Cernunnos or Nuada are rubbish and should be buffed IMO. Especially Cernunnos, as I'd rather take Goddess of Renewal and get 1f+1c for 2 forests than 2food from Cernunnos :S

 

[JungleBucks]

After some soul searching and a few more playthroughs, I've re-updated my personal tier list.

S: Egypt, Poland, Babylon, Carthage, HUNS, AZTEC
The Huns feel like absolute monsters thanks to the increase in barbarian spawning. I already loved them in the past, but now...JEEZ! In fact, all civs who get bonuses from killing are basically buffed, leaving cultural diplomatic civs further in the dust.
A+: Korea, Maya, India, POLYNESIA, SONGHAI, ZULU
Blah blah blah, Moai blah blah. I don't even really need to talk about Polynesia at this point because a certain, swaggy users already talked plenty about them. I love their sea resource bonus though. It really incentives me to take tiny islands when I see them.
A : Mongolia, China, Ethiopia, Spain, Morocco, Indonesia, Assyria, Celts, Rome, Danish, England, BRAZIL
I'll admit I have a personal bias towards Brazil, which is why I admittedly overrated them. I was going to move them from A+ to A- accordingly, but then Gazebo made the Brazilwood camps AWESOME, so they're going to be sitting in A for me.
A-: Russia, Inca, Shoshone, Ottomans, JAPAN, BYZANTIUM, GREECE
I was skeptical about Japan, and I'll admit I'm STILL not fond of being able to outright block tourism, but it's a pretty good new UA for Japan. I think Japan needs something to help compensate for the enemy trade route bonuses they miss out on, like internal route bonuses or bonuses from mutual trade routes, but aside from that, they're okay. They may deserve to be moved a little higher.
I used to rank Byzantium higher, but she honestly doesn't feel too great compared to other civs that get their religion off. The UA is still pretty good, but the rest is just...meh.
I don't get why I've kept Greece in low regards for so long, I just haven't had a playthrough with them in a while I suppose. They're pretty solid in almost most regards however. Diplomacy never really feels troublesome to the point where I wish I had a diplomacy civ, but for what they are, they're probably one of the game's best. And so BEEFY when you get allies.
B+: Netherlands, Japan, France, Portugal, Arabia, Persia, AMERICA, GERMANY, AUSTRIA, SIAM
America gaining golden age points from tile purchases are nice, but considering it doesn't scale per era (IIRC), and golden ages get more expansive subsequently, it doesn't seem as good of a buff as I thought, especially since early golden ages aren't that great in the first place. (Seems like I'm always complaining about America when I show up). The Smitshonian DOESN'T need anymore buffs, so I believe a better buff would be something involving tile purchases. Just throwing it out there, ENEMY TILE BONUSES WOULD BE NEAT! I always think of those tiles as native reservations, similar to the many that are found across America, so maybe they could get a culture and/or gold bonus or fat globs of flat culture. Nothing says "America" like getting culture thanks to what you stole from other civilizations.
Austria, you're still not that great, but I have newfound respect for your UA, because dang it, some of these enemy diplo civs get awfully troublesome. With the kind of influence you can gain early from barb quest, solidifying your hold in a City-State seems easier now if you don't miss your chance.
Gazebo's right, Siam is underrated. They don't necessarily wow me, but the bonus yields they get from allies seems pretty useful, especially if you manage o get an ally early on. The bonus City-State strength is kinda niche depending on the circumstance, but I can definitely see it's use.
B: Sweden, Venice (?), IROQUOIS
It seems like the more I use the Iroquois, the less fond of them I become. I blame bad map placement and a lack of forest in certain areas. There was a good jungle/forest start I had once however, and that was AMAZING. But moments like those are few and far between.
Venice might deserve to be higher. When they get momentum, they're easily A+ material, but if they can't get momentum, they're B- at best. Settling them in B or B+ just feels right.

 

[Zymos]

So what makes Egypt truly the powerhouse that everybody thinks they are?

 

[Dawnbringer]

The burial tomb giving a free artifact boosts them greatly because it also gives their UA bonus. They also have an early game UU that boosts production. That's why they're always relevant and strong. Egypt can also play to each ancient policy tree's strengths, thus also making them pretty versatile.

 

[Funak]

I don't know why people keeps placing Sweden as the lowest, they are definitely one of the most powerful warmonger civs. Just randomed them in an immortal game with a pretty terrible starting position, and I was still able to fight myself into a favorable position despite being technologically backwards and surrounded by Persia and Attila. I was then able to transition that into a pretty decent mid-game with the unique building.

 

[Dawnbringer]

Personal Tier list update. Reminder: This is for PANGAEA map setting on STANDARD pace and STANDARD map size (8 players, 16 CS). Strategic balance. (Nov 10th Version)

S+: Carthage/Egypt/Aztec/Zulu/Songhai
S: Poland/Persia/Mongolia/Huns/Celts/Greece
S-: Inca/Rome/Babylon/Arabia/Korea/Denmark
A+: Indonesia/Shoshone/Iroquois/Polynesia/France/Netherlands/Ethiopia
A: Ottomans/China/India/Germany/Sweden/Assyria/Japan
A-: Maya/Russia/England/Morocco
B+: Byzantium/Brazil/Spain
B: America/Austria/Venice
B-: Portugal/Siam

Not many changes. Carthage nerf was definitely warranted, but 175 is still a good amount. Minor shifts in rankings, but nothing too massive, thus she still remains the top civ for me personally. Despite the new unique luxury, Brazil is still down there, though it's better than before because they still have that big weakness in their UU (reminder, this is a Pangaea) and the brazil woodcamps do help a little more, just I feel that it isn't really enough. I've played a few Siam and Portugal games and I still wasn't impressed with them, thus they remain as the bottom two right now. Siam can snowball definitely, but the chances of finding that friendly culture/faith city state first isn't commonplace for me.

And @Funak: I've been consistently placing Sweden in a good place. They aren't the creme of the crop, but I've said it countless times that the extra movement speed on their siege is immensely powerful.

 

[infidel88]

My own tiers for 17/11 patch, usually Emperor difficulty, random map, normal barbs.
What should be taken into account in my opinion is flexibility and being decent no matter conditions or RNG and strength of UA (15 points), UI/UB (10 points) and UU (5 points). Extra 2 points can be added if certain thing about them is truly exceptional. If you think this scoring is not balanced well, let me know, general idea was - UA is for whole game, therefore worth most, UI/UB stays with you after you discover, but sometimes comes late, UU is only for one era, max two.

Top tier:
Aztecs (13+10+4) = 27/30 - more barbs or longer turns work well in their favor;
Egypt (12+10+5) = 27/30 - contrary to logic, Egypt works wonders with progress;
Mongolia (10+10+4) +2 ger = 26/30 - easier tribute works well in Mongols favor;
Poland (15+6+3) +2 solidarity = 26/30 - it's all about extra policies to be honest;
Netherlands (12+9+3) = 24/30;
Inca (12+7+5) +2 slinger = 24/30
Germany (10+10+2) = 24/30 +hanse - Germans shine very late, but 10+ TR to city states and hansas = game over for opponents;

Good:
Carthage (13+7+3) = 23/30 - reduction from 200 to 175 is not relevant, early gold, lighthouse, god of commerce and you snowball like hell;
Denmark (8+10+3) + 2 jelly = 23/30 - Jelly stones might be the best UB in the game, UA requires mean micro though;
Korea (12+8+3) = 23/30;
Indonesia (11+9+3) = 23/30;
Celts (14+5+4) = 23/30 - if only Ceilidh hall was any useful, pictish warriors amke barb hinting a joke;
Polynesia (9+10+2) +2 for moai - 23/30 moai is only great at the moment;
Shoshone (12+7+3) = 22/30 - pathfinder is too random at the moment, if you fail to get 4+ ruins, it's complete waste of UU;
Greece (11+8+3) = 22/30 - nice phalnax synergy early on with tribute lets you snowball a bit;
Babylon (11+8+3) = 22/30;
Maya (12+8+2) = 22/30 - kuna is far better snowball for AI starting with worker than for player;
Songhai (9+9+4) = 22/30 - very terrain dependant;
England (12+6+4) = 22/30 - UA gets you lots of extra techs and additional bonuses, UB comes a bit late, but shines;
Ottomans (9+8+4) = 21/30;
Austria (12+7+2) = 21/30 - very one-dimensional;
Zulu (10+8+3) = 21/30 - you get lvl3 army after dealing with barbs, which is cool, 50% less maint also helps;

Average:
Ethiopia (6+10+2) +2 stele = 20/30; UA is basically 5 free tech not always coming at a good time, UU comes at time when artillery rules field anyway;
Rome (8+8+4) = 20/30 - legions are great, but depend on iron, which is meh :/;
Spain (8+8+4) = 20/30 - would be so awesome if mission counted towards sacred sites;
Venice (12+5+3unique) = 20/30 MoV is too unique to rate it, gave it average;
Persia (8+7+4) = 19/30 - at the end of the game, you'll get permaGA anyway usually, so that 50% won't help a lot and early on it's just couple of turns of GA;

Below Average
Huns (8+7+3) = 18/30
Byzantium (7+6+2) = 15/30 - it's not like any extra belief will win the game for ya, it helps, but just a bit;
America (5+8+4) = 17/30
China (7+6+4) = 17/30
Portugal (4+8+5) = 17/30
France (6+7+3) = 16/30
Japan (8+5+3) = 16/30
Russia (11+2+3) = 16/30 - ostrog comes too late to be relevant;
Sweden (9+5+2) = 16/30 - +1 move for siege helps. a little;
Brazil (7+7+2) = 16/30 - brazilwood provdies early gold and culture and is no longer jungle dependant; too bad UA is still geared towards toursim;

Poor:
Assyria (7+5+3) = 15/30
Siam (6+6+3) = 15/30 - what if you don't start next to a couple of CS?
India (2+9+3) = 14/30 - their ability is total crap, you start next to religius civ and whole UA goes down the drain, as AI Gandhi is even worse, as with one GP you kill their religion and make them eat themselves;
Arabia (5+7+2) = 14/30 - shines at only one scenario - toursim win;
Morocco (4+5+2) = 11/30 - if you're isolated or start next to warmonger or something, you may be without your AU until it's too late;