Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

[primem0ver]

I have been working for a few weeks laying the groundwork for this mod component. Here is what I have so far (including progress). Keep in mind, the "complete" items will still be modified as the other pieces are developed and integrated. It should also be noted that the readXML methods have not been developed for any of the classes yet.

• The addition of six new map views that will be included in a "Geo Layer" view similar to the "Globe Layer" options. (SDK, Python, XML in progress)
• New Info classes that correspond to any geo layer that is not simply an enumeration (listed below).
• A climate info class (SDK Complete, XML In progress)
• A plate feature info class used to describe/enumerate plate boundary types and features that result from plate tectonics (SDK Complete)
• An air mass info class used to help determine climates and weather patterns (SDK almost complete)**
• A "geography" (or landform type) info class used to inform, name, and help with modeling in the engine. (SDK In progress)
• A "season type" info class used to aid in climate calculations and informing player. (SDK almost complete)**
• An altitude info class used to establish modifiable altitude details (by color) when looking at the geo layers on the map. (SDK Complete)
• A bedrock info class used to determine future resources, features, and used to integrate parts of the geo engine. (SDK In progress)**
• A vegetation info class that relates biomes and climates to vegetation feature types (and varieties). (SDK Complete)

NOTE: The double starred items are NOT viewable GeoLayers. But they will add information for the player to view.

 

[Sgtslick]

holy sh!t , so many people are really talented around here

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sounds awesome! I cannot wait to see it!

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is just absolute geniusness (is that a word? lol) Prime! I was wondering if you'd vanished on us or just gone into hiding in the development lab. I'm so very happy to see it was the latter! Can't wait to see how this plays out in effect!

 

[Laskaris]

primem0ver, I just wanted to let you know that I applaud your project. I'm a historian by trade, but have recently developed an avid interest in climate science (both through my history studies and through mapmaking for games like Civilization). I find it absolutely fascinating, and I love the idea of creating maps with more realistic climates and biome placement for the game. I would have started such a project myself if I had better modding skills.

I see one potential problem with the project, though:

Neither basic Civilization IV nor the C2C mod have an array of terrains that is really suitable for representing realistic climate zones and biomes. For instance, there just isn't a good terrain to represent rain forest soil. The rain forests are among the wettest climate zones, obviously, but the soil is very poor for agriculture because most of the nutrients of the rainforest are locked in living vegetation and recycled without entering the soil. There isn't really a good terrain type to represent this. Neither is there a good terrain type to represent areas like the soil of Siberia, which is also poor for agriculture (I'm not talking about the northern permafrost areas now, but about the areas more southwards under boreal forest).

C2C does have an over-abundance of desert terrain types - "barren", "rocky", "scrub", "desert", "dunes", "salt flats" -, which is probably a result of them copying these terrains from the Dune Wars mod. But otherwise, the terrains are still too limited to allow for a realistic climate and biome placement, in my view.

It's still a great mod, obviously, and maybe some future changes will allow a project like GeoRealism to enact its full potential.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Laskaris

What if you had Barren terrain with Jungle terrain feature on top?

 

[Laskaris]

@Laskaris

What if you had Barren terrain with Jungle terrain feature on top?

I thought about that myself. I'm not sure how good it would look aesthetically, or whether there might be questions from the players ("Why is there barren terrain under the jungle?"). But it would be a solution in the absence of anything else.

I am planning on doing a conversion of my Accurate Earth Map for C2C sometime, and I'll see what I can do there. You have things like savannah vegetation, which is a big improvement over basic CivIV (in basic CivIV, I have to represent savannah as warm forest, which isn't really satisfactory).

 

[Thunderbrd]

If we need more, I'm sure we can create them to fill the need.

 

[ls612]

If we need more, I'm sure we can create them to fill the need.

Not unless you're going to be making the textures (and NIFs) for them. That was always the issue with terrains and features, is that our team does not have the capability to make new ones, only recycle old ones.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I probably could with the graphics programs I have. One of my as of yet unfulfilled promises is to see what I can do to figure out how to create terrains from scratch. I believe I can do it fairly easily actually... just haven't had time to focus on that yet.

 

[AIAndy]

Not unless you're going to be making the textures (and NIFs) for them. That was always the issue with terrains and features, is that our team does not have the capability to make new ones, only recycle old ones.

Terrain only consists of texture (plot types also have height maps but unfortunately you can't mod in more plot types).

 

[Thunderbrd]

(plot types also have height maps but unfortunately you can't mod in more plot types).

why? Where does the game store those infos? It can't be purely contained in the exe could it???

 

[AIAndy]

why? Where does the game store those infos? It can't be purely contained in the exe could it???

Unfortunately the amount of graphical plot types are hard coded in the exe, including where the art for them is found.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I did NOT know that! Surely we could figure out SOME way around that??? I don't mind the limitation for now but I was really hoping to eventually help us overcome that with some new 3d terrains! hmph... sad news.

Wait... we AREN'T limited on features though... what if we used flat or blank terrains and simply began to just utilize features to define the whole thing? We'd need to define a definite Feature Layer for the base terrains but there isn't really anything a terrain can define in the game that a feature couldn't is there?

 

[AIAndy]

I did NOT know that! Surely we could figure out SOME way around that??? I don't mind the limitation for now but I was really hoping to eventually help us overcome that with some new 3d terrains! hmph... sad news.

Wait... we AREN'T limited on features though... what if we used flat or blank terrains and simply began to just utilize features to define the whole thing? We'd need to define a definite Feature Layer for the base terrains but there isn't really anything a terrain can define in the game that a feature couldn't is there?

While features can change the look of a tile, they don't change in what height the units are displayed there.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So the trick would be to work the basic tiles in just UNDER the art and use them for height defines. hmm... So do we at least have access to the graphics on the base tiles somewhere?

 

[AIAndy]

So the trick would be to work the basic tiles in just UNDER the art and use them for height defines. hmm... So do we at least have access to the graphics on the base tiles somewhere?

We do, it is a height map and some mods have changed it. But you only have as many as there are plot types in the original game to use. So changing them would not really help.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not for changing them, for modeling around them! If I could pull a base terrain's polygon mesh into one of my 3d programs I could use its height map as a guideline for new terrain displays that would be able to be placed over the top of the original as a feature.

Interestingly, you say that some mods have changed the height maps themselves? I take it then that the height map is somewhat independent of the mesh model of the terrain?

 

[AIAndy]

Not for changing them, for modeling around them! If I could pull a base terrain's polygon mesh into one of my 3d programs I could use its height map as a guideline for new terrain displays that would be able to be placed over the top of the original as a feature.

Interestingly, you say that some mods have changed the height maps themselves? I take it then that the height map is somewhat independent of the mesh model of the terrain?

There is no mesh model of the terrain, just a height map.
If you place any feature on it to make it look like a different terrain then units will walk inside that feature.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ah... I don't believe I have any programs that would work with that very well anyhow then.
But units already walk into the terrain at points... the features would have to only be set a pixel above the original to make it an imperceptible difference. But I'm starting to think that what I had in mind wouldn't work because they don't already define tiles as a 3d mesh object, which is terribly disappointing. Ah well... onto other matters then.