Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

Did anyone know any Math/Calculus that can HELP him then??:help: Laskaris ??

ANYONE

My Pure maths degree is over 30 years old and I never did get the hang of applying maths to anything real - except at work where I translated specifications from statistical maths into stuff programmers could understand. Probably still not reality though:lol:.
 
I did post-grad work in GR and QFT (General Relativity, Quantum Field Theory), but that was nearly 30 years ago and my calculus has lain unused since then and is utterly rusted up I'm afraid
 
I only know basic Calculus, which was simple enough.
I would need to look at where he is having problems specifically before I can truly commit.
If its already around, then I blame my late morning coffee not kicking in yet.
 
As I said to him I can probably help with the math, but certainly not with its application. At any rate he hasn't been on the forums since last Friday, so maybe he figured something out.
 
I know calculus but I guess he should just post the issue he is having then we can see how to help.
 
Did anyone know any Math/Calculus that can HELP him then??:help: Laskaris ??

ANYONE

Climate science and computer simulations of the climate are incredibly complex. We have all heard that, but only after having done some personal research on the subject in recent months am I beginning to appreciate how utterly, intimidatingly complex it really is.

To get a first-hand impression, you can look at Planet Simulator, a software developed by the University of Hamburg. That one, mind you, is actually a very simplified Earth-system model, designed to get students acquainted with the field. Even so, there are pages and pages of complex equations and interactions behind their model, as you can see in the Reference Manual.

If you want to make even a simple, stripped-down Earth-system model with a decent atmosphere component, a very primitive ocean component (Plasim uses a flat "slab" ocean, not a deep ocean with multiple levels), a primitive vegetation component, a primitive sea ice component and no land ice component at all (the dynamics of ice sheets and of the buildup of glaciers are super-complicated in their own right), this is what you would have to program. It would overwhelm any single person, even if that single person is both a professional climate scientist and a professional programmer. You would need a team of both, and they would take several years.

Now, as I understand it, prime is not trying to create anything of this complexity. But even if you strip down something like PlaSim yet more and reduce the workload to maybe 20% of that, it's pretty intimidating. I salute prime for even trying something like this.

In any case, I sadly don't have the expertise to help much with the maths. I'm a historian, not a climate scientist, and while I have a semi-decent layman's grasp of climate science because of my personal interest in it, we would really need a professional.
 
If I have to create this myself, I will find a way to help you finish this gentlemen.
Modeling and Simulation mathematics has long been an interest of mine.

Remember that we only have to approximate a working system for the purpose of creating useful information. Yes it is daunting and challenging, not to mention complex. But we are just the people to accept the challenge and make it workable.

I don't accept that we need a professional, or that the simulation has to be irreducible complex for us. We should start with the variables we want to pin down. And see if we can approximate the formulas required. After all, we only to need to create a dynamic simulation of it. There is much we can sacrifice to create a reasonable result. And we could always improve upon that later. Strip it down to a workable start.

So what do you guys think our complex needs are?
I understand some of the programming and simulation mathematics necessary.
Interacting rainfall, temperature, humidity, and wind dynamics?
Weather and geo-modeling interaction?
Temperature threshholds, and ranges?
Maybe we can pin some of this down.
(I played SimEarth, and have accomplished many things that others said weren't possible, Civilization and SimCity were just as equally unapproachable until someone bothered to try.)

So can we discuss making this challenge possible? I'm up for helping.
(my first computer programming experience -12 years old - was to try to create a spaceflight simulator by combining a astronomical solar system with a rocket launch game. I've done a few things since then.)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0168192386900146
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0450(1983)022<0517:ASSFDE>2.0.CO;2
http://ppg.sagepub.com/content/23/3/329.short
Some of this type of thing is accessible. We can talk relatively complex math here.
http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-29201.html
there are discussions on the subject. Remember that we can start as simple as we want to.
Maybe we could start with Precipitation.
http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:dynamic-weather
You can't tell me that there aren't workable weather mods for games out there.
We just have to start somewhere.
The challenges have to be defined before they can be solved.
 
Less ramble, more point. gotcha. I'll keep it simple and focused.

The point is we can figure this out.
I bet I can help overcome these obstacles.
Let tackle this, together.
 
Hello everyone, It has been a while since I have posted (indeed... even visited) in these forums. I took a needed break that ended up with me playing another game. I still plan on playing that game but recently I have been thinking about Civ IV again and feeling the wish to get back to this project.

Regarding my previous loss in interest
Unfortunately, there is a major road block. I cannot create a climate simulator without a fairly accurate method of calculating temperature at a specific latitude given elevation and a guesstimate of humidity based on distance from water.

I worked on this problem at the beginning of this year using articles I found whose math I could only vaguely understand and a lot of trial and error. After a month and a half of failure I got very burned out on it. (Hence my extended leave).

If anyone has a background in calculus and can simplify the math in an article, I am still interested in finding a method that is based more on reality than the simplified model represented to me in an article suggested by Laskaris.

An Update
HOWEVER... I have some possibly good news. Laskaris' article was an unacceptable solution [as written] because the temperature adjustments using the equations found in the article were off of the adjustments needed by as high as 22% of the maximum possible value. I know that is vague but lets just say it wouldn't be accurate enough to produce reliable results considering all the other guesses and approximations that I need to make. Previously I tried to resolve the problem by putting data points from the real graph into a polynomial regression calculator but the results again were way too far off.

Recently however, due to my wishing to get back to the project and some thoughts that occurred during my time away I tried a different approach. I broke the graph into four separate sections (based on distance from the equator) that might be represented by 4 separate equations. Using the data and the online regression calculator I was able to find four equations that produce a maximum error of only 3.5% of the maximum value. Using these equations in place of the ones in the article and the method presented there might be a good enough solution for me to get back to work.
 
Great news. I'm sure many people are very pleased that you are working on this again.
 
This is very good news,A weather system would be a welcomed addition!
 
I have delved into the depths of the article provided by Laskaris after coming up with a reasonably successful set of equations to use in place of the crude ones in the article. I now have a rough approach to use that I need to iron out into something that works in Civilization.

However, in order to save a lot of potentially wasted time ironing out a good algorithm, I am going to create a "georealism" laboratory using .NET and c#. This will take in wbsave files and generate sets of data that I can more easily access, view, and easily manipulate in its raw form (versus using the complex method of making that data accessible within the game's GUI) to run algorithm tests.

One of the biggest reasons for this is because I have realized that part of the algorithm in the article includes using ocean surface temperatures and there is no way to calculate that. Instead, I have to simulate ocean current movement in order to figure out the temperatures and I have decided that this will be the easiest and fastest way to do it.

Bottom line? I will be creating the ocean current simulator before the climate simulator (because I need one to do the other). Originally I was going to do it in reverse of that order. I am not going to make any promises on how quickly this will progress. I did that last time and got burned out because it involves a lot of work to begin with, not to mention the unexpected ugly snags that I will continue to encounter (like the temperature issue). If I pace myself without making promises, I should be able to stick with it this time.

If people want, I can post the successes in an oversimplified graphic form that should be easy to interpret.
 
Just the other day I had a fleeting thought about what a shame it was we never saw you get the chance to fully bring this to manifest. I'd thought at the time it would be pretty much a dead issue but here you are again and that makes me VERY :D to see! Welcome back and good luck on your further progress! Looking forward to your results!
 
I wonder how this would affect the CPU and Graphics card, but I love the idea of having simulated meteorology.

It won't have much of an affect at all. Except in the beginning where a significant of cpu time would be needed to run the simulation before the map is finished.

It could also potentially contribute weather simulations which have been in use in the past. Are these still operational?
 
It won't have much of an affect at all. Except in the beginning where a significant of cpu time would be needed to run the simulation before the map is finished.

It could also potentially contribute weather simulations which have been in use in the past. Are these still operational?

What would be the easiest and hardest part to simulate?
Easiest : Temperature
Medium: Plate Tectonics
Hardest: Clouds and water currents .

I wonder if we need Plate Techonics since they take millions of years to shift and the gametime is about 55,000 years max.

I would assume an Ice Age in the beginning would be simulated and Global Warming in Modern?
 
It won't have much of an affect at all. Except in the beginning where a significant of cpu time would be needed to run the simulation before the map is finished.

It could also potentially contribute weather simulations which have been in use in the past. Are these still operational?

Well... I'm not sure what 'these' you're exactly referring to but nothing has changed along those lines since you were last around.
 
FYI: This post contains a picture that represents my current progress on the the simulator.

Well... I'm not sure what 'these' you're exactly referring to but nothing has changed along those lines since you were last around.

I'm referring to the storms that I used to sometimes see over my land.

What would be the easiest and hardest part to simulate?
Easiest : Temperature
Medium: Plate Tectonics
Hardest: Clouds and water currents .

I wonder if we need Plate Techonics since they take millions of years to shift and the gametime is about 55,000 years max.

I would assume an Ice Age in the beginning would be simulated and Global Warming in Modern?

The whole point of the simulator is to create a map that is realistic geographically and in terms of terrain type placement (as well as features and bonuses).

Notice the map below (archipelago snaky continents script) which has been through the first step of the simulator, showing the results (The first simulator step is to find global lanes of moving water which are responsible for creating oceanic gyres; i.e. large systems of currents). Pay particular attention to the locations of hills and mountains.

Color Key:
Dark Blue = major cold water lanes (moving in the direction of the rising sun... normally east)
Red = major warm water lanes (moving in the direction of the settings sun... normally west near the equator. Away from the equator depends on land layout.)
Medium blue = areas of ocean without major lanes (still has currents but the area of water is too small for major gyres).
Light blue = shore
Green = plains
Yellow = hills
Orange = mountains

attachment.php


Notice how there is no pattern to hills and mountains? Notice how they seem to be just randomly scattered? This is FAR from being realistic. Especially because they seem to congregate in the middle of the continents.

If this map were realistic, those mountains would be in recognizable ranges and those ranges would usually be somewhat close to shore lines, following a specific pattern or trend. So yes... to produce realistic maps we need to simulate plate tectonics or at least represent the end result. That is the only way to produce a geographically realistic map. This will happen just after map generation before the game begins. It is not meant to be watched. It is simply an "after" step to produce a better map.

Ice ages way eventually be simulated; but those would exist only when the tectonic simulator is completed since it is part of history and serves only one purpose in the game: to more realistically place lakes and resources.

Global warming will only be simulated in the same sense that Ice ages are simulated. They will not reflect a current trend and will only be part of the historic tectonic simulation in order to determine where to place things like oil and coal. I am not convinced that global warming is a significant trend in the present even though I don't dismiss it outright. Even if it is occurring, the evidence doesn't necessarily point to it being (entirely if at all) man made.

If people want to have a global warming option such as in situations where huge ecological disasters occur, that might be possible. Also, if a user chooses to have non-default temperature and humidity options, these will eventually be considered when the simulation is done.

FINALLY:
Simulating plate tectonics will be much more difficult than most of the climate simulation. Most of the climate simulation (except calculating base temperature accurately and possibly one or two other future snags) is pretty straightforward if one understands all the factors involved. Gyre (current) simulation is about the same difficulty as climate if not a bit easier.

Plate tectonics on the other hand starts out with the most difficult and abstract step: determining the location of plates. Frankly, if it wasn't for the existence of "areas" in the game, this would be far more difficult than it will be. Even so... the math and generalizations that need to be used are very heuristic as opposed to algorithmic. Coming up with an algorithm will indeed be difficult. But I don't believe it will be impossible.
 

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Some map scripts already do a basic plate tectonics simulation. The perfect world and perfect mongoose scripts, for example. Also the tectonics map script that comes with the game.

These also include basic climate simulations that make rain shadow effects from peaks and such. They are not highly realistic, just better than a purely random map generated with an algorithm that takes none of this into account.

Anyhow, as a starting point you could use the plate tectonics simulation from one of those scripts.
 
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