German War Poll, Near Objectives 1360 AD

[Provolution]

German War Poll, Near Objectives

This poll is in principle a repoll from the last tie between those that wanted to conquer Berlin only and those that wanted more war.

You are now voting on War Objectives, but that does not mean that there will be a war for total conquest. We can still conquer several cities, and in the end make a total conquest. So you can vote for all these options, and still be for a total conquest.

See discussion

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230035&page=2

Options:

1. Negotiate Peace with Germany (they offer no technology)
2. Only defence against Germany
3. Conquer Cologne
4. Conquer Dortmund
5. Conquer Cologne and Dortmund
6. Other option
7 Abstain


This will be a three day poll, and even plurality wins.

 

[Provolution]

Here I will argue my case.

I think we can continue the war against Germany for a while longer, sending one column to Dortmund and the other to Cologne. The reason we can attack these, is that they have no walls, which Frankfurt and Tartar have. Until catapults catch up with the main army, I suggest conquering these cities first in order to save troops. I am certainly aware that "citizen input" in the broadest definition of the word, may capsize this poll, but since I heard Methos state he wanted to play thursday, and this is a repoll, I felt I had to poll this. I assume that some "to-be" lawyers will seek to dismantle this poll.

"Why did not you attack Essen?" , "why did you leave out Frankfurt?" and so on, like press conferences in Pentagon.

Well, we got no catapults in the front, it is that simple. If someone want to argue for a suicide strike right now without catapults against walls, please feel free to set up your own poll, make sure you explain about the penalty of walls, and of course the Longbowmen.

For Essen, that city is on a hilltop, making it quite defensive as well.

 

[fed1943]

Sorry, but I did not understand this poll, so I can't vote yet.

Is it about the GOAL of the war? like the previous and tied poll? If so, then I'll
keep my vote: conquer all Germain. (BTW, change "conquer all Germain" to
"Other option" looks...perhaps not good).

Is it about the good timing and sequence of battles? If so, then I'll abstain
because I believe it to be Warlord role.

Best regards,

 

[Provolution]

I will clarify a bit here. We are to conquer all of Germany, and voting for the conquest of Dortmund and Cologne is the best we can do right now.
I will poll war-objectives from now on, and thus let the citizens decide how to proceed. The biggest guarantee you have for total conquest, is starting out with Dortmund and Cologne.

I will have to repoll war goals until all of Germany is conquered, you can read the long term plan, where the war gradually slides over into a Roman War.

 

[Falcon02]

I'd much rather go for Cologne and Frankfurt then Dortmund (seems a little out of the way for little gain).

Though you make a valid point about the Catapults (though elders/governors could step up Catapult production).

Anyway, without Frankfurt, I voted for Cologne, cause I don't think Dortmund is worth the effort, and I would like to see peace relatively soon.

 

[Provolution]

Dortmund plays a role, as it is our backdoor leading up to the Roman Wars, disrupting their iron supply.

 

[ori]

I have some problems with this poll
a) the last poll also included other German cities - that are not mentioned in this poll. Why?
b) this is a single choice poll that spreads the doWar choices over 5 choices while the doPeace choices are just 1 - people who want peace can easily overrule people who want a continued war even if they are a small minority.
c)The discussion after the last Turnchat wasn't even allowed to run for more then 14-16 hours before this poll sprang up - much too short a time for a real discussion on this matter.

I think I need a before I make any decision - but I lean towards invalidating this one on my own initiative...

 

[Provolution]

Well, then you put up a better one, since this a run-off poll from the last one.
I just added the only plausible war options here.

I have no catapults left, if you read closely (coffee helps ) . This means, we need to wait with walled cities till they get here.

This has been an ongoing war objectives poll, and Methos is playing the save on Thursday, so you figure this to work properly, and still give people a chance to vote for something.

Of course, we can make all July go like this, I am ok with that. ...

Also, it is very unlikely "Do Peace" will gain enough votes here, knowing the audience.

Getting my own coffee. (remember, this is sort of a run-off poll, just adding war objectives).

 

[ori]

Well, then you put up a better one, since this a run-off poll from the last one.
I just added the only plausible war options here.

I have no catapults left, if you read closely (coffee helps ) . This means, we need to wait with walled cities till they get here.

This has been an ongoing war objectives poll, and Methos is playing the save on Thursday, so you figure this to work properly, and still give people a chance to vote for something.

Of course, we can make all July go like this, I am ok with that. ...

Also, it is very unlikely "Do Peace" will gain enough votes here, knowing the audience.

Getting my own coffee. (remember, this is sort of a run-off poll, just adding war objectives).

I still have two concerns:

1)
A true run off would read something like:

Do you want to make Peace now?
Do you want to continue the war?

Those are basically the two options the other poll (link) comes down to - Berlin is conquered so those who wanted to stop there could vote Peace. Those who wanted to conquer all of Germany and those who voted for just the core cities could vote for continuing the war.

This poll however mixes two questions:

Do you want to continue the war?
AND
What do you want to do IF we continue the war.

Ideally both should be answered in separate polls.

I think a real run-up poll is necessary. If you feel that the immediate war objectives should be polled (I'd agree on this) do so as well, but separate those questions. No one forces you to wait for one poll to close - you can always ask: IF we choose to continue should we ... ?

wage defensive war
attack cologne
attack dortmund
attack cologne and dortmund
etc.

2) The time for debate is too short.

My patience has grown thin for non-good polls recently - at the same time this is not a really bad one either, since:

1) The Polling Act currently debated specifically would say that this is no reason to invalidate and I am not going to invalidate a poll for reasons that (apart from me) no other people in this debate have yet found objectionable

2) The timeframe has indeed been shortened by the DP - and I will not now delay this TC as well. I'll rather take part in the pace discussion going on...

Anyway this rant has gone on long enough and it should actually have been placed in the Polling Act discussion. I don't feel this is a good poll. However my concerns can be countered validly enough for me to not invalidate it without a request to do so.

 

[dutchfire]

The discussion on this issue hasn't been long enough, and the options (and interpretation) is skewed.

 

[Provolution]

Please someone set up a war/peace poll, as you would like it, and we retain this as a war objectives poll. We only consider "make peace with Germans" as advisory and linked to the other poll.

Remember, this is a real poll giving real options for a real game purpose, way beyond what we saw by the end of last week. Also, there is a deadline for thursday. We could have risked not polling this at all. Tuesday already.
And two polls, one for peace and one for war objectives I think is overdoing things right now. Principles are good as they solve problems, not cause them.

 

[ori]

I'd much rather go for Cologne and Frankfurt then Dortmund (seems a little out of the way for little gain).

Though you make a valid point about the Catapults (though elders/governors could step up Catapult production).

Anyway, without Frankfurt, I voted for Cologne, cause I don't think Dortmund is worth the effort, and I would like to see peace relatively soon.

The discussion on this issue hasn't been long enough, and the options (and interpretation) is skewed.

Falcon02's post I missed earlier - dutchfire's I didn't, both tip the balance:

This poll
a) is posted after too short a discussion for a meaningful decision - while the DP has indicated that he wants to play about 3 days after the last TC he also acknowledged that this might change because of the delay
b) does not include all options available, thus skewing the interpretation into the direction of the poll poster
c) asks two different questions at a time which is at least unadvisable

This poll is invalid.

The Poll Invalidation Act stipulates that any citizen who does not agree with this decision may appeal to the full court within 24 hours of this post. This appeal has to be posted in the Judiciary thread of this term.

 

[Provolution]

The Run.off poll for war is set up for two days, I will post this poll in a renewed shape on thursday.

We still need a target date for next TC, I posted this to make it in time.

We should rather aim for 15 turns next TC i order to compensate for delays and bureaucracy. I can easily make strategies for some 15 turns.

On this note, I would like to see more interest in the game itself, participation in strategy discussions and so on, and less emphasis on legal tamperings. If this was a legal sim only, I may have liked it, but we are not getting anywhere without participation about strategy.
The absence of those discussions would then be leveraged by those blaming officials for lack of democracy and so on.
The better and longer discussions (with researched and valid input) the better strategies and polls we make.
I am now tired of being the whipping boy in the polling world, there seems to be 10 critics for each poller, so nothing gets done.

 

[Provolution]

Moderator, please close this poll, as the turnplayer may delay TC anyways.

 

[fed1943]

Ori is right. Two different questions here:

1) War or peace.

2) If war, what city/cities to attack now.

To the first question, please consider my vote war, under the philosophie this

continent is ours.

To the second question, I want to give my vote to Warlord because I think it's

an important, but also just tactic/techinal/executive question.

Best regards,

 

[Joe Harker]

Provolution, as warlord, why don't you, in your office/tent say what you plan to do in the next turnchat, instead of posting polls on what city to capture next, use the poll earlier made to gauge how far people want to go in this war and conduct your operations within those guidlines, if someone wants the war to end then they can post a poll themselves.

 

[donsig]

Well, seeing as how polls are ignored in this game I will not be voting here.

 

[Provolution]

Provolution, as warlord, why don't you, in your office/tent say what you plan to do in the next turnchat, instead of posting polls on what city to capture next, use the poll earlier made to gauge how far people want to go in this war and conduct your operations within those guidlines, if someone wants the war to end then they can post a poll themselves.

That is true in theory, until someone pops up with a poll to suicide our campaign army without catapults in say, Frankfurt, and the rest of the voters take the bait. I have posted these strategies in the citizens threads, with mixed response. I am certain Cologne and Dortmund are the best options with no walls.

But you are right, if someone wants to end the war, I leave that misery to them. Setting up polls seems now more to be a burden than fun, so I end it here.

 

[ori]

The Run.off poll for war is set up for two days, I will post this poll in a renewed shape on thursday.

While you should probably give some more time for discussion you can always post the second poll before the first one has ended - just make it an IF poll - If people want peace now its results are not needed, if people want war - the poll can finish... Just a suggestion, though.

 

[Provolution]

I will let the strategy discussion run its course, you are right Ori. But I think the poll in itself is good enough, and I have seen many demogame polls.

What I did wrong was the too short discussion on war strategy, as I already was convinced on which cities to take (catapult access).