Germany/Prussia, Holy Roman Empire, and Goths will likely be DLC civs

[Uberfrog]

You're using your own definition for a linear progression there - the context for my comments has been "a series of three civs that is equivalent to 1 old style civs split into 3 ages". Noone wanting to play England for the entire game would be satisfied with a Roman starting point for that. Rome would have it's own linear progressions through some renaissance Italian state into the Italian Kingdom or something.

The Rome - Norman - Britain was an example the used of an unstacked / non-linear civ that showed how you can make it work by looking at different civilizations and their impact on the development of the city of London.

Goths - HRE - Prussia is explicitly seen as a "German" stack / linear progression by OP and many in this thread and other dlc prediction threads. It would be odd if we suddenly got a full stack like that on the first DLC pack imo, as that has expressly not always been the design. That may be the end point, but suddenly changing to prioritising another stack all in one go would be at odds with their philosophy for choosing civs thus far, barring China and India for the reasons I've set our earlier.

I don't think that's controversial, it's been the main talking point on these forums since we saw that first diagram showing Egypt into Songhai. Civs are no longer stacked. Releasing a whole stack in one go would clearly be a change of policy.

I think every player will have their own idea of what a “linear progression” is.

Certainly I consider Roman – Norman – British a perfectly reasonable progression. All are cultures that ruled England, and while not complete, it is entirely congruent with the way history is taught here.

I would suggest also that your (apparently far more universal!) concept of the Goths to Prussia as a cromulent German “stack” is a little off, given that the only evidence we have of Gothic representation so far is the Mausoleum of Theodoric. Theodoric’s Ostrogoths migrated from east of the Dniester into Italy, and so would appear to have very little to do with the Kingdom of Prussia. Even their relationship to the (Frankish) HRE would be one of (slightly) overlapping territory.

 

[Siptah]

Germans would almost never see the Goths as an important part of their heritage. If you would ask Germans to provide a stack, you'd get Germani, Celts, or Alemanni for Antiquity in 99% of cases. Goths work good enough for civ VII, but if you are looking for the "optimal" path, they aren't in the top 3 imho.

 

[Acepox]

I'm torn on this. Obviously from a historical standpoint it would make sense. Either way the German Empire was Prussian centered anyway, so to me it really doesn't matter.

Though for marketing reasons I do wonder if they would go with calling it Prussia, especially to the masses that wouldn't realize Prussia=Germany?

As if "the masses" would be any more familiar with Chola and Majapahit...

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

There's a judgement call here. Would players know Tawantinsuyu or Zagha? Probably very, very few. Some players would know Chola and Majapahit. There's a line between the two that's more of a collective gut feeling. Sometimes if something is VERY recognizable ("Greece") we might go for that even if the "Hellas" is relatively common knowledge as well.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I wonder how likely the modern Russian version we get in the base game will be named Soviet and then the Exp age Russia will be available later, maybe under the name of Kievan Rus? I kinda want to have the Soviet union in the game. That would be kinda cool, and yes, I do realize that may be a controversial choice.

 

[Zaarin]

I wonder how likely the modern Russian version we get in the base game will be named Soviet and then the Exp age Russia will be available later, maybe under the name of Kievan Rus? I kinda want to have the Soviet union in the game. That would be kinda cool, and yes, I do realize that may be a controversial choice.

Given the presence of Catherine the Great and the Hermitage as associated wonder, I'd say Modern Russia is almost certainly Romanov Russia. If we get an Exploration Age Russia, there are plenty of options--Kyivan Rus', Novgorod, Muscovy, Vladimir, etc.

 

[Acepox]

Given the presence of Catherine the Great and the Hermitage as associated wonder, I'd say Modern Russia is almost certainly Romanov Russia. If we get an Exploration Age Russia, there are plenty of options--Kyivan Rus', Novgorod, Muscovy, Vladimir, etc.

Lots to work with for a linear Russian progression!

 

[Xandinho]

Given the presence of Catherine the Great and the Hermitage as associated wonder, I'd say Modern Russia is almost certainly Romanov Russia. If we get an Exploration Age Russia, there are plenty of options--Kyivan Rus', Novgorod, Muscovy, Vladimir, etc.

There doesn't seem to be a St. Basil's Cathedral in the Exploration. Could this be associated with Muscovy in the future?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Germans would almost never see the Goths as an important part of their heritage. If you would ask Germans to provide a stack, you'd get Germani, Celts, or Alemanni for Antiquity in 99% of cases. Goths work good enough for civ VII, but if you are looking for the "optimal" path, they aren't in the top 3 imho.

Goths are a Germanic people, so I see where they were going with that idea. If the Goths do get I would be surprised if they didn't potentially lead to a Modern German civ as well.

As if "the masses" would be any more familiar with Chola and Majapahit...

People that have played the last two iterations would at least be familiar with the Majapahit, as in that's what Indonesia has mostly been based on.

 

[Evie]

Germanic to Germany is one of those easy but utterly false equation - plenty of Germanic people would up having little or nothing to do with the people who became Germany. Even a Norse-Germany pipeline would be questionable; Goth are still more wrong. They belong in association with Southern Europe, leading into Portugal, Spain, maybe the Balkan or Italy, nowhere near Germany. The Romans have about as much business going into Germany as the Goth. But hey, Vandals into Germany would be even worse (and they’re Germans too)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Germanic to Germany is one of those easy but utterly false equation - plenty of Germanic people would up having little or nothing to do with the people who became Germany. Even a Norse-Germany pipeline would be questionable; Goth are still more wrong. They belong in association with Southern Europe, leading into Portugal, Spain, maybe the Balkan or Italy, nowhere near Germany. The Romans have about as much business going into Germany as the Goth. But hey, Vandals into Germany would be even worse (and they’re Germans too)

I understand that. To me it would still be more believable than what we have Greece progressing to Spain and the Normans, currently.

 

[Zaarin]

I understand that. To me it would still be more believable than what we have Greece progressing to Spain and the Normans, currently.

There were Greek colonies in Spain so I'm okay with that. You can justify Greece > Normans either geographically (hello, Egypt > Songhai) or based on the Norman conquest of Sicily and southern Italy, erstwhile Magna Graecia. (Since Norman and Byzantine culture hybridized in Sicily...I'd be more okay with that if just some element of the civ reflected the Sicilian kingdom.)

 

[Evie]

It is an often forgotten aspect of Ancient Greek culture just how much of Ancient Greece was in Italy.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There were Greek colonies in Spain so I'm okay with that. You can justify Greece > Normans either geographically (hello, Egypt > Songhai) or based on the Norman conquest of Sicily and southern Italy, erstwhile Magna Graecia. (Since Norman and Byzantine culture hybridized in Sicily...I'd be more okay with that if just some element of the civ reflected the Sicilian kingdom.)

I can agree with that too. I was just explaining to those that to me Goths>Germany is no stranger than Greeks progressing to Normans or Spain. Most of the pathways are stretchy, but at least the Goths were a Germanic group of people.

 

[Siptah]

I can agree with that too. I was just explaining to those that to me Goths>Germany is no stranger than Greeks progressing to Normans or Spain. Most of the pathways are stretchy, but at least the Goths were a Germanic group of people.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that I think for civ 7 Goths > Germany is wrong or even strange. Just that they are usually not mentioned much when it comes to the history of the now German lands, while other peoples are seen as being heritage and important (however doubtful some claims may be) - as are Greeks and Normans in Sicily, for example, while the Spanish/Aragonese aren't that present in contemporary remembrance. But yeah, of course, there is Astérix et les Goths...

In civ 7 terms, Goths is actually a very good choice imho, as they can easily go to any German, Spanish, North African, Northern and Eastern European civ for the AI and thus also have a lot of leaders associated.

 

[Willie5000]

I’m not sure if anyone here considered the possibility that Germany will just be in the base game without Goths or HRE leading into them.

Germany might just be in the Modern Era without a real pathway.

 

[JNR13]

I’m not sure if anyone here considered the possibility that Germany will just be in the base game without Goths or HRE leading into them.

Germany might just be in the Modern Era without a real pathway.

Too many people are still clinging onto the idea that civ choices are based on pathways. They clearly aren't, given the civs we already know. It's just copium at this point for people to hang onto predictions they made earlier or to keep up some hope for civs that almost certainly won't be in the base game. In fact, it seems that outside of China and India, the goal for the base game was to bring back as many classic civs as possible in the first place. I think Ed Beach said something about "representing civs at their peak of power". Which is also why Germany ultimately (i.e. with DLC) being represented by two civs - HRE and modern Germany - is completely fine. It doesn't need an ancient civ because that was not the time of a grand Germanic empire having any notable influence beyond their homelands. If the point of the game is to play a succession of three civs peaking in each era, respectively, then building Germany from Rome is completely fine and sufficient.

It's funny that even before we knew anything about Civ VII, there was speculation that Russia might get excluded due to reasons. But now that there's a quite clear shot at exactly this happening, suddenly it's supposed to be likely that Germany is scrapped (moved to DLC) instead?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If the point of the game is to play a succession of three civs peaking in each era, respectively, then building Germany from Rome is completely fine and sufficient.

Rome>Normans>Prussia/Germany as Charlemagne seems like something the Devs would want people to recreate.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

How did you know that Germany will not be in the base game?

 

[Fummy]

Something I found odd is that the first two DLC packs will have 4 civs in them. On release they have a balance of 10 civs per era, not counting Shawnee. So 4 is a weird number when 3 would make so much more sense adding an antiquity, exploration, and modern civ with each expansion pack, maintaining the balance that was obviously important enough for them to bake into the game on release. Obviously individual civs being sold as dlc at some point would upset this balance anyway, but they could have made the dlc packs have 3. As a result of this I don't think the German civs will be in a single pack all at once, since they have already decided that 4 is the magic number, so I dont see packs of a civ from each era happening unless they change their model to 3 packs, or throw in a random 4th wheel civ.