Getting DOWed very early

[intutama]

Hello all,
I started a deity game and got DOWed by Pascal of the Maya on turn 58 when I haven't had time to build even one axeman, while he got 3 axes and 3 chariots.
Is this something that can happen in deity and you should prepare for it, or is it one of those "you're screwed no matter what" deity moment?

I settled towards him but not so close (no touching borders).

 

[Windsor]

Depends on how good you are. It's so rare that unless you're fairly comfortable on deity you probably lose more games by playing more cautiously than you win by being able to defend when it happens. And even when you succeed at defending, those games are much harder than average deity. But they're certainly not impossible to beat, especially if you're willing to use cheap tactics such as settling crap-cities to gift or use in a peace-deal.

 

[sampsa]

Have you checked Lain's game in the latest NC? He takes necessary precautions already pre T50.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

To answer your question directly...yes, it is something that can happen. It's not as common, but it's called a dagger, and I've seen the best of players get bit by it.

 

[elmurcis]

If he got Copper+Horses, it is possible (like with many leaders.. on cautios attitude for sure). Question 1 - was he cautios before declare? (oh my, oh my) Question 2 - was there anybody else he could attack instead of you? (are you really that unlucky? ) And if there is no time to "accumulate" gift resource diplo bonus, well.. sometimes this happens...
I will never forget crazy Ragnar (okay, little bit later but still... early ) with 8 3-move galleys full with 16 units and attack directly from sea

 

[gaash2]

happens a lot to me even on imm... I usually just risk it and just restart if it comes, though you can sometimes predict it if you are next to shaka or monte

 

[Pedro78]

If your neighbour is a known warmonger then you have to hook up copper/tech Archery to be safe. For the other guys you can usually recover from a dagger as they usually don't build as many units and don't attack too early. Now it does happen that you get very unlucky and your game is ruined.

 

[Fippy]

Dagger means you are hit by a bunch of roaming units with a flexible target, worldbuilder is useful for seeing how that works
AI units are categorized in stuff like city_defend, city_attack, scout, reserves..so let's say units with an attack setting move towards a barb city, and you are on their way, then you can be in great danger. With deity bonuses, AIs can have such units really early.

Unlike plotted wars, those units are not "bound" on their target. At least that's what i thought when monitoring games via worldbuilder (i often did that when creating maps for others).
Later in the game when negotiating with (stronger) AIs, it's usually "peace for city x".
So they have a certain amount set to attack that city, but early such units might move around and instead of giving you red fist warnings they can simply attack when close. I think that if they hook up early copper or so, units can be built quickly without a certain goal.

Also it's not always warmongers, i remember Kossin getting hit by Joao ~~
It's unlucky to get daggered by AIs with lower unit spam %, but why would the game differ for such units?
Diplo..hmm who thinks about gift settlers on t50?

Fully avoidable it's problaby only by playing like multiplayer (where suddenly 5 warriors might come out of the fog, or a couple chariots / Axes with a beeline for those techs). Being close to your Cap, and not in open space i would assume it's much less likely that roaming units decide you are a delicious target
I doubt border tension plays a role there tbh, it's probably all about being where they move around or not.

 

[lymond]

Also it's not always warmongers, i remember Kossin getting hit by Joao ~~
.

ha, that is exactly the one I was referring to

nice explanation

 

[Fippy]

Yup
Just saw there's a pic now, can also be a normal plot war here Intutama.
When you know only 1 AI, there's no "we have enough on our hands now" and so there's no red fist.

Argos looks like a real mistake here, we can see minimum 2 more nice spots around your Cap with seafood, floodplains and most important Jumbos.
With those no blocker cities are needed (it's also very expensive), and Pacal could be taken care of with Construction

 

[ArchGhost]

Apparently one of the war rules for the AI is that they need 2 units better than archers to begin plotting war at all. Pacal obviously has copper and horse nearby, and went for AH +BW instead of further up religion in the tech tree. Even with only Horse and no copper, or no Horse, he'd still be able to if he got BW because of resourceless Holkans guaranteeing him a second unit along with Chariots OR Axes.
Check.

Another is that if they have no other potential neighbors to target, due to attitude or w/e (think I read it was pleased with all their potential land targets, though it may just be their 100% no war threshold, not specifically pleased), they can declare remote wars without doing the land-target check if they don't like you enough to plot on you. Which is indirectly in effect here, since Pacal only knows you anyway.
Check.

Pacal is also one of the leaders that can declare at Pleased and only has a 50% NoWarProb at cautious, below average, not as bad as the well known warmongers but a bit lower than a lot of the peaceniks that like culture and religion like him.

Summary: Yeah, Pacal specifically can be dangerous in this situation . At least more so than a typical "peaceful" AI that likes religions and culture techs. He founded his religion super fast so was able to go BW quickly (and AH too) and snag his 2 better unit types, and if he only knows you...

Did not know about the dagger rule (no plotting) being in effect if you are the only contact though, that one was new to me.

 

[elitetroops]

Did not know about the dagger rule (no plotting) being in effect if you are the only contact though, that one was new to me.

They do plot, it's just that you (or BUG-mod) cannot find out about it, because there are no other leaders on the trade screen that could reveal when they have enough on their hands already.

 

[Gumbolt]

My recent game I had 2 Ai dagger attack me even though they were at war with eachother. One had been plotting against someone before the other Ai attacked it.

The classic demands came in and I ignored them on the basis that they were both already at war. Never assume how Ai will behave.