Gimli raises axe for Western civilization

Originally posted by andrewgprv


Though I am no expert on the subject I know that Arab Moslums did go through a revival of Greek Philosephy far before Europeans ever did, I believe it was some time around 900-1000 AD. Also didn't the Arab Muslims develop Algebra?

In Late Antiquity, much of the Graeco-Roman intellectual tradition is translated into the Syriac language and makes it way to Persia. The barbarian invasions of the 7th century change the middle eastern world, and Arab rule is systematized by the semi-barbaric Umayyad Caliphate. The Abbasids, a sub-Persian dynasty, move from (Arabo- Roman) Damascus to Persian Baghdad, and they inaugurate a golden age.

al’Khwarizmi - the supposed inventor of Algebra. His work Hisab al-jabr w’al-muqabala is where we derive the term algebra. The originality of the work is difficult to assess, since we only know a bit of the Graeco-Roman, Mesopotamian and Hindu influences. But the point is, al’Khwarizmi was of Persian extraction. His origins are controversial. He was possibly born in Persian Mesopotamia, near Baghdad. His family origins, though, were most definitely in Iranian central Asia (hence al'Khwarismi), and even if he was overtly an Orthodox Moslem, his background was Zoroastrian.
 
How about this idea?

Allowing large number of immigrants into Western countries for humanitarian reasons. >(is greater than) Attempts to preserve (by restricting all immigration) all aspects of Western culture (if it is presupposed they are threatened).

Attempts to claim it is "progress" or "evolution" that the West is de-Westernized is false and approaches a reverse form of cultural superiority (though not quite perhaps).
 
Actually, meritocratic characteristics such as government exams and professional careers occur in China and Rome at about the same time, with the Han Dynasty and the Imperial/Late Republican army.

True! But then Europe went Dark and forgot about it all. Not until the Renaissance did those values re-appear. Until then, the scourge of divine right and heritable titles.

Well, Arabia was never any kind of intellectual hub. You're confusing it with Persia and the Old Roman territories. There is no question that the Islamic world was less backward than the Old Roman West for most of the Early and High Middle Ages, but it must be remembered that most of the individuals we'd credit for this were either 1) Persian 2) Jewish or 3) Christian. Actual Arab Moslems aren't as prominent as one might guess!

Arabs advanced more slowly, but without the manuscripts they preserved Europe would have been starting literally from scratch. There's a reason Italy started the scientific and literary Renaissance: they were the only Western Europeans interacting meaningfully with the Arabs [at the same period, the Spaniards were massacring them]. Salerno and Bologna [the first medical school and university] had large Jewish and Arab populations. Wasn't Salerno allegedly founded by a Greek, an Arab, a Jew, and an Italian? Even if that was a legend, it was testimony to the intersection of cultures. Constantine the African may have been a Christian, but the manuscripts he brought with him were Arabic translations of Greek thinkers like Hippocrates, manuscripts that had been lost in the Fall. What about another great figure who laid the grounds for the Renaissance, Frederick II of Sicily? He may have been a result of Hohenstaufen-Norman interbreeding, in other words, a Northern European, but he learned Greek and Arabic in addition to Latin. He patronized Fibonacci, but he also invited al-Hanifi, the greatest Egyptian mathematician of the time, to his court. Both helped introduce Arabic numerals [which were really Indian]. He was an atheist and he kept a harem of Eastern dancing girls. He founded a university and endowed it with a huge collection of Arabic manuscripts. He was responsible for the Constitutions of Melfi which were the greatest legal documents of the age, on a level with the Justinian Civil Code before and the Magna Charta which came about the same time. Unlike either, it laid the foundations for European religious tolerance. Minorities fared better in Fred's Sicily than anywhere else in Europe. All that in the thirteenth century, Calcagus!

All this is leading up to my point, which is that maybe it took the Europeans to recognize the full value of or make use of [as Nicator said] this new knowledge, but to claim that it was a purely European phenomenon is folly. It is exactly at this intersection of cultures exemplified by Fred II that ENABLED the Renaissance. So, again, John Rhys-Davies is either deliberately oversimplifying the situation, or he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

I mean, the West intellectualized it, but trade was practised since the dawn of time.

What about the commenda contract system, the first full-service banks, letters of exchange, sea loans, the first insurance companies, and double-entry bookkeeping? Amazingly enough, these are all European innovations, specifically Italian [again!]. Luigi Pacioli for example invented the last of these in 1494. These are the foundations of modern capitalism.

What is unique about Western Christendom is the Church-State conflict which so dominates much of our history. Our form of secularism is a response to that, I think.

Indeed. The greater the conflict, the more severe the reaction. The English are still pretty laid-back about religion, but just look at the French and the Germans!

Also, you've got to face the fact that China did fall behind. Chinese society was simply less adaptable than W. Xdom.

They grew arrogant and decided they didn't have anything to learn from the rest of the world, and so they closed their borders. And stagnated.

Isn't that an interesting lesson for the subject we're debating?

Albeit to be perfectly honest, if I was Gimli I'd be more worried about making sure my acting career stayed relavent after my only lucky break.

Actually he acted in a few Indiana Jones movies as well. First Harrison, now Tolkein. No wonder his political views, eh? ;)
 
It is very unlikely that the Westerners that remain 50 years from now will be converting to Islam, so there is likely to remain a virulent strain of westernism for a while.
 
I dont see western civilization vanishing antime soon. I dont really think immigration can destroy a civilization, most of the immigrants will probably integrate. But like others have said....if they dont I see some serious problems for Europe. Racism will probably become accepted by the general public again, and this will be hightend by the lack of people to fill jobs. I dont see this as a positive situation by any means, but i dont see Western Civilization dieying out, it is far too rich to do that.....The USA has faced immigration problems and i am pretty confident i can say it is still a Western country.
 
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

True! But then Europe went Dark and forgot about it all. Not until the Renaissance did those values re-appear. Until then, the scourge of divine right and heritable titles.

Well, OK, to a certain extent. However, firstly, China had a similar period of disruption and decline in the four centuries after the collapse of the Han dynsaty. Secondly, after the Cluniac-Gregorian reforms, the Western Church becomes largely meritocratic. Secondly, the Ministrales (Knights) of the German Kingdom formed a large, and greatly meritocratic, body of service to the German King, even if the equivalents in England and France did not. Admittedly, this did not amount to the highly meritocratic bureaucracy of Rome, or the uniquely meritocratic professional Roman army, but it was still something. At any rate, patronage was at least as important in both China and the Roman Empire - so let's not blow up meritocracy too much for these civilizations!

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

Arabs advanced more slowly, but without the manuscripts they preserved Europe would have been starting literally from scratch. There's a reason Italy started the scientific and literary Renaissance: they were the only Western Europeans interacting meaningfully with the Arabs [at the same period, the Spaniards were massacring them].

What manuscripts do you think the Arabs preserved? The Roman West preserved virtually all the Latin classics. Of the Greek texts lost to the Roman West, virtually all that were recovered, were recovered via the Eastern Empire - not the Arabs. It disturbs me how so many people wish take credit away from the Byzantines and give it to the Arabs unjustly. Where the Arabs were important was for their commentaries, highly important because they clarified the meaning of many of these texts.

Actually, the Renaissance had its origins in the Italian commune state-system, which, as city states always seem to do, promoted artistic patronage and intellectual creativity. The humanism is always present in Italy more than trans-Alpine Europe, but was probably made fashionable by 1) the Byzantine anti-Hesychast movement; this was Platonic revival inspired by the neo-Hellenism created by the 4th Crusade and the Nicaean Exile; and by 2) the anti-Papist movement, inspired by the increasing authoritarianism of the Church and the charisma of Friedrich II.
Make a study of the Italian Renaissance and you'll find that all the influential foreigners are Greeks, not Moslems!

The Old Roman West is never as backward as some make out. In general, from the period 750 - 1453, the West produces weaponry, armour and fortifications more deadly and sophisticated than most of the World. The Ottomans actually use European weaponsmiths to produce their great guns and cannons - a fact that many people are unaware. The Monastery at Cluny is the largest enclosed space on Earth in the 11th century. Western Church building is always top-nosh. Cassiodorus, Isiodore of Seville, Peter Abelard and St Thomas Aquinas are great scholars by any standards. In general, the period 476-1204, Europe is pretty backward compared with China, Persia, the Romano-Arabic and Romano-Greek East, but it is never a sub-saharan Africa.


Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Salerno and Bologna [the first medical school and university] had large Jewish and Arab populations. Wasn't Salerno allegedly founded by a Greek, an Arab, a Jew, and an Italian? Even if that was a legend, it was testimony to the intersection of cultures. Constantine the African may have been a Christian, but the manuscripts he brought with him were Arabic translations of Greek thinkers like Hippocrates, manuscripts that had been lost in the Fall. What about another great figure who laid the grounds for the Renaissance, Frederick II of Sicily? He may have been a result of Hohenstaufen-Norman interbreeding, in other words, a Northern European, but he learned Greek and Arabic in addition to Latin. He patronized Fibonacci, but he also invited al-Hanifi, the greatest Egyptian mathematician of the time, to his court. Both helped introduce Arabic numerals [which were really Indian]. He was an atheist and he kept a harem of Eastern dancing girls. He founded a university and endowed it with a huge collection of Arabic manuscripts. He was responsible for the Constitutions of Melfi which were the greatest legal documents of the age, on a level with the Justinian Civil Code before and the Magna Charta which came about the same time. Unlike either, it laid the foundations for European religious tolerance. Minorities fared better in Fred's Sicily than anywhere else in Europe. All that in the thirteenth century, Calcagus!


He's Frederick I of Sicily - Frederick II of Germany/HRE. He wasn't an Atheist, I don't think. This allegation is the product of Papal slandering. The legal tradition which inspired Frederick was very much Roman - not Islamic!

Minorities - his Moslem bodyguard - did well in Sicily under Frederick - no doubt. But I don't see what this proves - other than that Frederick himself was more tolerant than other W-Xdomers of the period.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

All this is leading up to my point, which is that maybe it took the Europeans to recognize the full value of or make use of [as Nicator said] this new knowledge, but to claim that it was a purely European phenomenon is folly. It is exactly at this intersection of cultures exemplified by Fred II that ENABLED the Renaissance. So, again, John Rhys-Davies is either deliberately oversimplifying the situation, or he just doesn't know what he's talking about.

The Italian Renaissance really isn't that great. It had no great intellectual figures. It isn't much different from the 12th century Ren. of the North, or the Northern Ren. or the "North Western Renaissance" of Spain, Germany, France and England. The really important time is the Reformation and the great "Scientific Revolution"!

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

What about the commenda contract system, the first full-service banks, letters of exchange, sea loans, the first insurance companies, and double-entry bookkeeping? Amazingly enough, these are all European innovations, specifically Italian [again!]. Luigi Pacioli for example invented the last of these in 1494. These are the foundations of modern capitalism.


Book-keeping was as old a writing. Mesopotamian and Hittite tablets show this. Of course commercial techniques and customs changed/improved over time - but do they really produce a break? I'm not convinced they do!

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

They grew arrogant and decided they didn't have anything to learn from the rest of the world, and so they closed their borders. And stagnated

The Chinese never learned much from the West anyway. China is never backward compared with every non-Western civilization - but the West simply pulls too far away from every other civilization in the World in a space of a mere 300 years.
 
Originally posted by calgacus
The Chinese never learned much from the West anyway. China is never backward compared with every non-Western civilization - but the West simply pulls too far away from every other civilization in the World in a space of a mere 300 years.

lol, this is quite amusing. Every piece of semi-factual historical information you twist and turn and reinterpet or partially conceal until it showcases only that which you want. In a mere 300 years? The West accomplished nothing more significant in these 300 years then various other cultures did before them over greater periods of time. So why did they do it faster? Simply because the West happened to be on top at the time that electricity and a few other key inventions came about. As the human race advances, more important discoveries come quicker and quicker, any idiot can figure that out. It has been happing for milleniums and it's no different now. It took man kind hundreds of years to develop the wheel, and then a little less to use it properly in construction, then a bit of time with some other steps in between, then to utilize it by way of steam power, and then even less time to develop electricity. Technology builds of off technology, and as this happens new technology appears faster and faster. This has nothing to do with some eternal superiority of Western Culture, it's simple fact. But one could excpect no less from someone who compares Scottish colonial holdings to those of the Netherlands and Portugal.
 
Originally posted by aaminion00


lol, this is quite amusing. Every piece of semi-factual historical information you twist and turn and reinterpet or partially conceal until it showcases only that which you want. In a mere 300 years? The West accomplished nothing more significant in these 300 years then various other cultures did before them over greater periods of time. So why did they do it faster? Simply because the West happened to be on top at the time that electricity and a few other key inventions came about. As the human race advances, more important discoveries come quicker and quicker, any idiot can figure that out. It has been happing for milleniums and it's no different now. It took man kind hundreds of years to develop the wheel, and then a little less to use it properly in construction, then a bit of time with some other steps in between, then to utilize it by way of steam power, and then even less time to develop electricity. Technology builds of off technology, and as this happens new technology appears faster and faster. This has nothing to do with some eternal superiority of Western Culture, it's simple fact. But one could excpect no less from someone who compares Scottish colonial holdings to those of the Netherlands and Portugal.

You know the West may have had somthing that helped them refine technologies such as Steam Power, and electricity faster than other civilizations would have. That would be The constant killing of each other creating the need to find ways to better kill each other. I see no other civilizations that were constantly in a state that if you were observing from space would seem to be civil war. Once they figured out that somthing could be used to kill each other they were very good at refining it. So that might have given them an edge in speed. But again, it also caused them to be a backwater for most of recorded history. So no its not sepuriority of western civilization, its just that western civilizations placement created a necesity to advance faster and faster.
 
You make excellent points, Calcagus, but I'm worried the mods might move this to world history if we keep it up! :D I'll be brief, especially since I clearly have nowhere near as much knowledge of this time period as you do ;)

In general, from the period 750 - 1453, the West produces weaponry, armour and fortifications more deadly and sophisticated than most of the World.

Necessity breeds innovation ;) War seems to have been more or less constant. But during that period what civilian inventions were there? The only one I can think of is the watermill/windmill. In the fields of exploration and science, the Europeans borrowed many inventions. The compass, the triangular sail, etc. Were the Europeans first to gunpowder and cannons?

Simply because the West happened to be on top at the time that electricity and a few other key inventions came about.

Excuse me, the ascendancy of the West was guaranteed far far before then. If we measure comparatively, China was defeated by Western civilization in the early nineteenth century [around the time of the opium wars]. If we measure absolutely, I would say that the West was on top when it discovered America and a treasure-chest of resources defended by an essentially defenseless people.
 

Albeit to be perfectly honest, if I was Gimli I'd be more worried about making sure my acting career stayed relavent after my only lucky break.

Actually he acted in a few Indiana Jones movies as well. First Harrison, now Tolkein. No wonder his political views, eh? ;) [/B]


Hey! He also played an important supporting role as the Portuguese Captain opposite Richard Chamberlain in the made for TV adaptation of Shogun! And to think he has been denied an Oscar.
 
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate


You know the West may have had somthing that helped them refine technologies such as Steam Power, and electricity faster than other civilizations would have. That would be The constant killing of each other creating the need to find ways to better kill each other. I see no other civilizations that were constantly in a state that if you were observing from space would seem to be civil war. Once they figured out that somthing could be used to kill each other they were very good at refining it. So that might have given them an edge in speed. But again, it also caused them to be a backwater for most of recorded history. So no its not sepuriority of western civilization, its just that western civilizations placement created a necesity to advance faster and faster.

Are you responding to me or the proponents of Western superiority? Re-read my post. And as far as I know, the original benefit of steam power wasn't necessarily for war but to improve the industry (Think Industrial Revolution).

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate


Excuse me, the ascendancy of the West was guaranteed far far before then.

Never said it wasn't. It truly started around the year 1492, although it significantly speeded up in several important fields of science in the 19th century.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate


If we measure comparatively, China was defeated by Western civilization in the early nineteenth century [around the time of the opium wars].

Didn't you yourself say this was due to Isolationism? But of course, this hardly mattered because 'China never learned much from the west anyways', except for trivial matters like iron-working and such.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate


If we measure absolutely, I would say that the West was on top when it discovered America and a treasure-chest of resources defended by an essentially defenseless people.

First of all, what are you trying to prove to me? That is almost exactly what I was saying the whole time. Second of all, wrong, and here comes why you're 'almost' right. The West started it's climb to the top in 1492, and only reached it once the profits from the New World started to flow in. With this money and other benefits that flowed from the New World, the "West" ensued on a 300 year rampage where by the end of the first World War it conquered all major opposition to it's world dominance (which really it had reached far before that). The second key development was Democracy, or at least the rise of such philosophy in America and Europe which gave rise to better education and sciences throughout the world, along with the toppilng of many things that lay in the way.

As for electricity, it is the development that enabled the West to rapidly increase in population. Look at the world population over the course of history... once we reach the age of the light bulb, it starts growing at an unprecedented pace. Western countries were the first to experience this, and for a while it put them ahead of many other parts of the world. Since they had it first, they also got to benefit from the various improvements in everyday life that electricity led to.
 
Originally posted by aaminion00


lol, this is quite amusing. Every piece of semi-factual historical information you twist and turn and reinterpet or partially conceal until it showcases only that which you want. In a mere 300 years? The West accomplished nothing more significant in these 300 years then various other cultures did before them over greater periods of time. So why did they do it faster? Simply because the West happened to be on top at the time that electricity and a few other key inventions came about. As the human race advances, more important discoveries come quicker and quicker, any idiot can figure that out. It has been happing for milleniums and it's no different now. It took man kind hundreds of years to develop the wheel, and then a little less to use it properly in construction, then a bit of time with some other steps in between, then to utilize it by way of steam power, and then even less time to develop electricity. Technology builds of off technology, and as this happens new technology appears faster and faster. This has nothing to do with some eternal superiority of Western Culture, it's simple fact. But one could excpect no less from someone who compares Scottish colonial holdings to those of the Netherlands and Portugal.

WTF :confused:

I must have offended you here or something.

Originally posted by aaminion00
Technology builds of off technology, and as this happens new technology appears faster and faster.

Sort of, and that is one of the explanations for why the West pulls so far ahead



Originally posted by aaminion00


This has nothing to do with some eternal superiority of Western Culture, it's simple fact.

If you think I'm arguing this, then I doubt you've read any of the posts on the thread.


Originally posted by aaminion00


This has nothing to do with some eternal superiority of Western Culture, it's simple fact. But one could excpect no less from someone who compares Scottish colonial holdings to those of the Netherlands and Portugal.

You must have a long memory; but I don't think I did exactly that. I probably argued that the Scots had more colonial impact than the Dutch did. I think that is difficult to dispute, as long as one is not discussing states.
 
Well that's not saying much. I doubt most Indonesians even know about their Dutch heritage.

Now South Africa on the other hand...
 
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
You make excellent points, Calcagus, but I'm worried the mods might move this to world history if we keep it up! :D I'll be brief, especially since I clearly have nowhere near as much knowledge of this time period as you do ;)

Who knows :)



Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate

Necessity breeds innovation ;) War seems to have been more or less constant. But during that period what civilian inventions were there? The only one I can think of is the watermill/windmill. In the fields of exploration and science, the Europeans borrowed many inventions. The compass, the triangular sail, etc. Were the Europeans first to gunpowder and cannons?

Well, off the top of my head, there is the "Carolingian miniscule", various architectural innovations, the cog. I don't think many civilian innovations were taking place anywhere in this period!
 
This is half-right and half-wrong. What's right is the Muslim principles that he does quote. What's wrong is this favor toward the western civilization and this opposition to the muslim civilization
 
Originally posted by Calgacus
I must have offended you here or something.

When logic fails, answer with a siley. Offended? No. Your arrogance strikes me though.

Originally posted by Calgacus
Sort of, and that is one of the explanations for why the West pulls so far ahead

Obviously. Is Western Culture superior right now? Yes. Will it stay this way forever? Probably not.

Originally posted by Calgacus
If you think I'm arguing this, then I doubt you've read any of the posts on the thread.

I've read every last one. You repeatedly downplay the achievements of most every non-western civilization throughout history while at the same time exaggarating every single accomplishment of the West.

Originally posted by Calgacus
You must have a long memory; but I don't think I did exactly that. I probably argued that the Scots had more colonial impact than the Dutch did. I think that is difficult to dispute, as long as one is not discussing states.

The only reason it sticks in my mind is because it was a thread full of such obscene nationalism it puts late 80's Yugoslavia to shame. I spend just as much time on Balkan Political History forums as I do on civfanatics, and you're still by far the most Nationalistic person I've ever met.

As for the issue, yes the Scots probably did have a large impact on British colonialism in certain areas and I'm sure this shouldn't be underestimated, but that is an accomplishment of Scottish civilization about as much as the Blacks should take pride in the succes of the early American economy.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Well that's not saying much. I doubt most Indonesians even know about their Dutch heritage. Now South Africa on the other hand...

I don't understand what you're saying here.
 
Originally posted by aaminion00

When logic fails, answer with a siley. Offended? No. Your arrogance strikes me though.

Well, I'm not going to apologize for that. :p


Originally posted by aaminion00

Obviously. Is Western Culture superior right now? Yes. Will it stay this way forever? Probably not.

I wouldn't say western culture is superior. I think you're referring to western economic, military and technological superiority.


Originally posted by aaminion00


I've read every last one. You repeatedly downplay the achievements of most every non-western civilization throughout history while at the same time exaggarating every single accomplishment of the West.

I don't think so. You're perfectly free to cite examples you know :lol:

Originally posted by aaminion00

The only reason it sticks in my mind is because it was a thread full of such obscene nationalism it puts late 80's Yugoslavia to shame. I spend just as much time on Balkan Political History forums as I do on civfanatics, and you're still by far the most Nationalistic person I've ever met.



Likewise, you're perfectly free to point out the thread in which this took place. From my point of view, I'll just presume you're engaging in absurd, polemical exaggeration ;)

Originally posted by aaminion00

As for the issue, yes the Scots probably did have a large impact on British colonialism in certain areas and I'm sure this shouldn't be underestimated, but that is an accomplishment of Scottish civilization about as much as the Blacks should take pride in the succes of the early American economy.

Well, you can take this perspective if you want. One problem, I'd suggest, is that the role of the Scots in European colonialism (not merely British I may add) was much more versatile than the Black role in the early American economy, since the Scots were generals, explorers, missionaries, city-founders and pioneers - whereas the Blacks were slaves! :)
 
Originally posted by Comraddict
Kuran propagate spreading as #1 thing to do.
China is not threatened yet by them... but India is.
Interesting times are comming!

WE don't have a problem with Islam....we have a problem with bigots of all hues!

Plus, I think John Rhys-Davies is suffering from too much miruvor. He sounds more like Lord Macaulay and other such racists, who have a skewed idea of history and very cleanly white wash such aspects of "Western Civilization", such as the Apartheid in South Africa, the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in India, colonialism and Imperialsm in Asia, Africa and South America, the Spanish atrocities on the Incas and Aztec, the later American atrocities on the Native American populace, slavery and of course TWO World Wars.:mad:
 
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