GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
@ Scout - No science budget? I know we didn't discuss this but you normal run science at either 10% (40 turn gambit) or at least fro the first tech 100%. I would have roaded the BG just north of town before you moved your worker off it . You wasted a turn moving off, and eventually you'll need to waste another moving back on to it.

Well...here was my thinking when I played the turns:

Science @ 0%: I wasn't making much gold, and thought I would bump into a neighbor in the first 10 turns, and want the gold for trading. If we had played 20 turns instead of 10, you would have seen me bump the science on the very next turn (when the city border expanded and the citizen could be moved to the nicely prepared cattle tile).

On 'wasting a turn' with the worker: (and I've re-thought some things here) In my turnlog I noted the waste of a move, and that I hated doing it. Perhaps I should have put in a more detailed explanation. As I see it, the two most powerful squares in our capitol's expanded radius are the Cattle and the wine. By moving the worker (again) I was trying to harness the more powerful tiles first. My initial move to the cattle tile was clearly premature. If I had it to do over again I would have moved the worker NW, mined and roaded, then to the cattle, improved that, then to the wine, irrigate/road (wines would then be "connected") and then south, build a road.

Now - with that series of worker moves, the only worker move wasted would be the initial one, either N or NW - because the worker would be crossing a river to get back to the tile NE of the city, and a road on that tile would be of no help, movement wise.

Though I did waste a move, I think my bigger blunder was where I moved it - based on comparing my opening to SolarKnight's. The strength of my opening compared to his is that I'll be in a better position to work the wines sooner. If my initial wasted move with the worker had been NW, we could have had an opening that was stronger than either...

 

[tmarze]

I would like to find out how to download one of these games.
Do I need Winzip to open the game after downloading>I have been playing Deity for the past few days and had my behind kicked each time.I have been a career cheiftain player than decided to make the leap on large island type maps playing against only 3 AIs. When on deity should I build barricks first or crank out a few warriors.What should I do to keep my people happy or should I use the governor cause everytime my town
or towns grows to 3 I have a disorder.

 

[yoshi74]

@tmarze

While taking a challenge can be fun and helps to learn the game, the step from chieftain to deity is IMO several numbers too big, because EVERY aspect of the game must be done with great care and experience.
I would really advocate to take smaller steps. When warlord looks to puny for you, go for regent, or play here on monarch with a lot of insightful advise.
On deity you have to play nearly perfect, every small mistake, every wasted turn increases the gap between you and the ai's instead of closing it.
In the last two months i moved from regent to emperor, now close to win my first game. Still i hesitate the next step unless i'am more used to the harder enviorment.
For the download: click on the download links, or right-click and 'save link target as..'. When the file is a *.sav you can use it instantly, otherwise, when zipped a program like winzip of winrar helps to unpack it.

 

[mad-bax]

Yes.. Chieftain to deity is quite a jump.I think you would be better off trying a regent or monarch game first.

Cranking out a few warriors on deity just won't cut it I'm afraid

I have started to run an SG based on GOTM (which you may or may not have heard of). So with a little shameless threadjacking... why don't you and the other trainees (and lurkers) join the next one? It's going to be on regent level, and you get to play as the Persians... You can't get a more gentle introduction to SG's than that surely. (..and it will be the last in the series played at regent, the others will be monarch and above).

Bugs plays, as does gormdragan and barbslinger.

 

[shoguntaka]

Guys, I forgot to tell you that I'm going out of town for a week -- so skip me until I return (7 days). Or put me at the end of the roster.

 

[Vaiar]

Hé Mad-bax, as a lurker to this thread, I would really like to join that SG with the Persians so I get to understand the game better. Might I ask what its name is?

 

[mad-bax]

The game will not start until 7th April. There will (I hope) be an announcement on the sites main page on the 2nd April, and there will also be announcements in the GOTM thread and the SG thread.

If you are frightened you'll miss it, just subscribe to >>THIS THREAD<< and then you will be automatically notified. You can just visit the announcement thread and say you want to play.

I'll get into trouble if I continue threadjacking this SG, and I really don't want that. If anyone has anything else to say on the subject, just PM me.

I'm sorry Bugs, I just get over-enthusiastic sometimes.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Sorry guys for being incognito since Thursday, I came down with a terrible case of the March Madness bug. It's a very painful virus that is passed from male to male, with symptoms including: violent headaches, churning stomach, variable temporary Tarets, and the urge to place substantial wagers you can’t possibly hope to win.

Now that my bubble burst, I’m feeling much better……… kinda.

All the saves were very good, there were some minor differences, but they were all handled well. Nothing screams so far, but we’ll see if that lasts.


Questions:

1. Which save do you guys want to use? (I’m predicting an overwealming vote for Solar’s) Why?
2. What’s your research plan? Min/max? Does knowing who’s in the game change this for you? Keep in mind that cultural starts aren’t necessarily on due to the custom start.
3. Plans for the city? (I’m making a bold prediction towards settler factory, thanks to Bugs’ excellent post & explanation.
4. Any idea for future cities?


[From here on out each person will be individually playing the turns.
We need your logs as detailed as you can, every MM change, lux/research increase/decrease, scout movement, & trade. And most importantly WHY? (Why did you move the scout to the grassland on his 2nd move when there was a mtn nearby, why did you switch to working the forest, why put off trading with the French?)
If you’re faced with a big decision, and want the groups input mid-turn, it’s perfectly ok(even good) to post a log up to that point and ask for advise. Don’t think just cause it’s on you if something comes up you’re stranded.]


mb- Don't make me call a mod on you! Anyone that has contributed so much, can feel free to take a detour once & awhile.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan
Questions:
1. Which save do you guys want to use? (I’m predicting an overwealming vote for Solar’s) Why?

I think any one of them is playable. I got a couple of techs, Solar got a settler. Shogun's map shows us where the AI isn't.

2. What’s your research plan? Min/max? Does knowing who’s in the game change this for you? Keep in mind that cultural starts aren’t necessarily on due to the custom start.

Research definitely needs to be strategized from here. Unless we meet some AI players quickly, we're going to need to build the capacity to do some self-research. We need a coastal city fairly soon, so we can get some galleys out too...

3. Plans for the city? (I’m making a bold prediction towards settler factory, thanks to Bugs’ excellent post & explanation.

Settler factory, definitely. We're already halfway there.

4. Any idea for future cities?

The floodplain with wheat...city site 3 tiles west of our capitol. Shogun pointed that one out, and we need to evaluate that one as a potential second settler factory. To the NE about 3 tiles looks like a good spot for a high shield coastal city for making units and/or galleys. To the south is another floodplain/wheat, near some incense. Possible worker factory. We need more workerrs. And we need to stake a claim on that choke point.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Originally posted by scoutsout
Research definitely needs to be strategized from here. Unless we meet some AI players quickly, we're going to need to build the capacity to do some self-research.

I'm glad you mentioned this, a common misconception is that at Monarch & above self research is out of the question. "Trading is key, your slider should never go above 10%" and all that crap. I'm not downplaying how vital trading is, but I've played many Monarch/Emperor games where I didn't go for the GL, and with some shady trading, researched the entire game. It's very possible, it just takes practice & a whole lot of patience.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan
I'm glad you mentioned this, a common misconception is that at Monarch & above self research is out of the question. "Trading is key, your slider should never go above 10%" <snip>

Though I'm not good at tech trading (yet) I have found I can do okay with a combination of trading and self-research. I tend to key in on that period after the earliest middle ages when all the starting techs (and goody hut techs) have been traded. From that point, somebody has to research something in order to trade it. I find that a research rate of roughly 30-40% lets me make some progress while making enough cash to buy some techs. Getting some libraries and marketplaces in some productive cities early seems to be a big help. (IMO, research is an extension of commerce...)

The thing we're going to have to look at carefully in this game is not hampering our growth. Though an early library and/or marketplace in our capitol would be nice, we will have balance that with the need to claim land.

That's why a second settler factory needs to be a priority, IMO. After that, a high-shield coastal city. Even if we're not alone on this landmass, it looks like we're going to need to cross some water to meet some other civs.

If I may put in a shameless plug for starts other than Solar's - a couple of us did net some techs with our scouts. I got Warrior Code and Mysticism. I believe Shogun also got Mysticism. Mysticism is a wonder tech, so it usually has some trading potential if you can trade it early. With Warrior Code we can build a few archers to fend off barbs... (dang I'm gonna miss the guerrilla upgrade path in this game...)

Since we're looking at an "open land build-out" scenario at this point, we may want to put off horseback riding for a while. We need to build cities, not UUs. Iron working is important - but Iron Working is usually an AI priority...so maybe we ought to trade for it. Or research it when several AIs know it and it's cheaper...

I see two good paths for us to self-research (after Bronze Working) if need be:

We've got Wines, and within sight are dyes and incense. If we go for early marketplaces, we can have more gold to do research, as well as buy techs. When we get 3 luxuries hooked up, we'll have some resonably happy citizens... This points to a Alphabet/Masonry>Mathmatics>Currency path. An additional up-side to this path, as I see it, is that the AI tends to put these off - increasing their value in technology trading. The down side to this path is that it won't get us to galleys...

The other path: Alphabet>Writing then either Map Making or Literature. If we're the first to research Lit, it can be a very powerful trading tech. It's both a wonder and an improvement tech, and an expensive one. Libraries generate both science and culture, and an early library give us a leg up on self-research. Of course, if we trade it away, it will be less of a help. Map making will be key if we need to build galleys to meet other civs...

Either way it looks like we need to go for Alphabet early if we can't trade for it or pop it out of a goody hut.

 

[mad-bax]

Polytheism is a tech that is overlooked (and therefore researched late) by the AI. The importance of getting Mysticism early is not that you can trade it, but exactly the opposite. One of your options is to not trade Myst and then do a minimum research run on Poly. You will get there first on monarch and emperor. Getting poly first will allow you to trade for ALL the AA techs later if you do it right.

The risk is that you don't get there first, but since you have popped the tech then you have it around 30 turns earlier than you would otherwise have done, and on monarch there is no doubt you will get it.

You have this option because you started with CB. Had you been commercial you would have started with alpha. This trait allows the other minimum research run, which is writing and Literature. If you like, you can start a very early pre-build for the GL knowing that you will get Lit on turn 80. You can start the pre-build and guarantee the wonder.

In your case the minimum run open to you is poly - monarchy, which would allow you to pre-build Hanging gardens if you wanted to.

By going for a minimum run you know that you are not going to pop that tech from a hut, but since you are researching the most expensive available tech, you wouldn't anyway.

A minimum run means 10% science or single scientist.

There are other options however. You can make a dash for HBR to get your UU for instance, or you may prefer to research the Republic branch. Just remember that you get all the first tier tech for free through trade and huts. So it is the second tier tech you need to select and the money you put into it.

I just mention the 40 turn gambit here as it was an option that was designed into the game.

 

[Gengis Khan]

All very good points, and worth knowing MB. Just 1 minor correction, the only variant to this game(other then the obvious) is that the Great Library is not buildable(or rushable), capturing it later is still fair game though.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Gengis Khan
<snip> ...the Great Library is not buildable(or rushable), capturing it later is still fair game though.

Do we want to try and play this with no wonders, or at least no ancient wonders? My gameplay has taken a turn for the better since I started ignoring the ancient wonders...

 

[yoshi74]

My research strategy for the AA is to head for valueble techs to trade - witch are often overlooked by the ai's - with minimal effort. This allows to trade usefull techs like IW, HBR and still leaves enough money to buy something else.
Max research do i only when i can get a tech at less then 15 turns (or really need it), otherwise its wasted money. The pathes to monarchy or republic are both very usefull for trading. Getting poly and monarchy first allows often to trade for most AA techs.
Even without going to techs like HBR, IW or other ones witch give usefull things you get these normally faster than you can use it, since for a long time in the AA you spend most your time at producing settlers and some escort units.
Clever research and skilled trading easily allows to be tech par with the ai's at the end of the AA without wasting anything to build the GL.

@scoutsout

Building AA wonders isn't forbidden i think. The question is: Are there any usefull wonders which are worth the huge amount of resources to build them? If yes, which ones, and why are they better than ~15 units.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by yoshi74
Building AA wonders isn't forbidden i think. The question is: Are there any usefull wonders which are worth the huge amount of resources to build them? If yes, which ones, and why are they better than ~15 units.

Let's see...Are they "worth it"? Worth "15 units"? Not if you can capture one with 14 units! I think the Ancient Wonders are nice, but generally not worth the expense. The actual shield cost isn't the problem, but that you need those resources to grow your civ and develop a more fundamentally sound empire. If one must pursue Wonders, the ones that come along in the Middle Ages are more enduring and more powerful.

Of the Ancient Wonders, all but the Pyramids expire, and a Granary in every city is not necessarily all that good or useful... I think the Colossus is perhaps the most under-rated Ancient Wonder; the extra gold can give a nice boost to commerce and science, but you can certainly live without it. I believe it's cheaper than any of the other Ancient Wonders by at least 100 shields, and it does last until the late Industrial Age.

Not long ago, when I was using the Great Library as a crutch, I'd sometimes try to get the Great Lighthouse to assist in meeting AI's across the water. Suicide Galley missions are cheaper.

There is one thing (other than culture or effect) that might make a given wonder worth pursuing... if you want to try to trip your Golden Age peacefully. For example - as Egypt, you didn't get your War Chariots into combat. Hanging Gardens might trip your GA. But there you're not really talking about building the wonder, you're talking about tripping the GA...and it's a hit-or-miss proposition that tends to miss more at higher levels.

 

[yoshi74]

The value of wonders should be re-though every game according to the situation. When sitting on a small island/continent wonders like colossus/lighthouse can save the game, on a pangea they may be your doom, because your neighbor sharpend his swords while you build some big shiny wonders
I absolutly agree on your opinion about the pyramids. In my games most cities are long enough struck at size 6 before i build aquaducts. And to fast grow for river cities can be painful too on the higher levels.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by yoshi74
The value of wonders should be re-though every game according to the situation.<snip>

My main point was that the ancient wonders generally expire, and not getting a wonder is generally not a game-breaker. It's certainly not as painful as dumping several hundred shields into a Coloseum or University... I'm not advocating that ours become a "build no wonder" game. I am saying that I'd want a compelling reason to build an ancient wonder.

 

[infoman]

(1) 4000BC- Worker N to BG. Scout N->NW to mountain. Settler NW. This is to bring in cow & wines into city radius.

(2) 3950BC-Salamanca founded, start scout, start Mysticism. Worker mines BG. (Shield are key in early game) Scout SW->SW.

(3) 3900BC-Scout ->s->SE. See incense to SW. Adjust slider to drop 5 turns off of Mysticism, still @ +1gpt.

(4) 3850BC-Scout ->S

(5)3800BC - Scout ->S. See additional incense & fish along SW coast. Also two flood plains which should be good settler/worker factories. Adjust workers in Salamaca to get scout out quicker.

(6)3750BC - Salamanca->scout->warrior in 5. Scout 2 ->E->E. Scout 1->S. See whale to S.

(7)3700BC-Scout 1->SE->SE. Scout 2 ->Se to GH and we get masonry.

(8)3650BC - Worker SE. Scout 2->S->S, see fish. Scout 1->E, GH in next square. A little here. I forgot to have worker build rode in BG square.

(9)3600BC - Scout NE to GH & we get Bronze working. Scout 2->S, see two dyes.. Worker irrigates square.

(10) 3550BC- Salamanca->warroir->scout. Warroir fortifies in Sal. Scout 2->SE. Scout 1->SE. There is a bottleck here next to a river & 2 dyes. Important spot to remember.

Currently, building another scout for exploration. Going for Poly & Monarchy for trade possiblities later. Scout 1 &2 are exporing to south & beyond. We have BW, Masonry, Pottery & CB.


Here is Save @ 3550BC

 

[yoshi74]

I'm not advocating that ours become a "build no wonder" game. I am saying that I'd want a compelling reason to build an ancient wonder.

Isn't this what i wrote (or at last tried to write ). Its o.k. to build a wonder when its fits the situation and really benefits.
Building wonders can influence the research, so i wanted to initiate a small discussion which wonders (if any) could and should be build during this age depending on what we know from this world.