GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[denyd]

One more little thing - what type of world is this?

If you happen to be all alone on a smallish island (the Gilligan Scenario), you might not want that second settler factory (maybe not even the first one) and you might need to beeline for Map Making to get galleys so you can meet the AI and settle other lands.

It's very important to learn as much about the world as possible as soon as possible.

One item I mentioned earlier is who your opponents are. You can check this my using the F10 screen (spaceship progress). If you know you are in a game with no Japan, then no opponent has started with the Wheel. If you have game with 3-4 Scientific AI, then Bronze Working can be traded for when you find one of them. Knowing if there are 2-3 Expansionist AI (or the Aztecs), you can expect to find less available huts than if you're the only one as they will have those 2-move units available at the start.

Knowing who's out there and what your surroundings are are very important at this stage of the game.

BTW: If I get too intrusive, just tell me to go away.

 

[shoguntaka]

You're right, I should have send the conscript to scout some part of the southern part of our capital, perhaps send him atop the hill S-SW. The reason I didn't do it is because my third scout will do it. (Now, I'm considering about switching the 3rd scout to granary.)

I'm impressed that you're able to pull a scout a turn earlier than me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, You MM'ed your city like this:
[0] moved settler NW
[1] work on forest (1 fpt, 3spt)
[2] work on forest again( 1ftp, 3spt)
[3] then work on BG grass (2fpt, 2spt)
[4] still working on BG grass (2fpt, 2 spt)
[IBT] 10 shield is collected, so
Scout is build,
scout -> granary
[5] BG grass (2ftp, 2spt)
[6] bg grass (2fpt, 2spt)
[7] BG grass (2ftp, 2spt)
[8] BG grass (2ftp, 2spt)
[9] BG grass (2ftp, 2spt)
[10] turn not passed yet

You've netted total of 16 food so far, and invested 10 shields on the granary. 10/60 shields for the granary, and that explains the 25 more turns for the granary (50 shields left at 2spt rate)

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by shoguntaka
Correct me if I'm wrong <snip>

You got the MM exactly right. Scouts are a strength of expansionist civs, but so is the early granary. My thinking was that I'd trade a little population growth to get a scout out a turn earlier, and gain back some of that tradeoff by building only one scout. Right now I'm trying to figure out if we'll be able to do an efficient whipping to speed the granary along, or if I shot myself in the foot by going for the 2 shields...

If I'd handled the second scout as well as you did, it looks like I could have popped one more goody hut. Dangit. I find it quite ironic that both of us have our second scout positioned to pop the same goody hut on the next turn...

Denyd -

I believe the world generated was "random". Silly me - forgetting we can't research alphabet for a couple of lousy Curraughs... and the F10 key in the Ancient Age - now that's a cute trick!

Based on what I've seen of the maps so far, if we're on an island it's not a real small one. There's still a fair chance we're not alone here... much to be scouted NW and Southward... even if you combine my map with Shogun's...

...and you're not intruding. It'll be interesting to see how the better players can show us how to strengthen these openings.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I should have had a science discussion before we played these turns. That is my fault. I was focused on the initial scout, worker, and settler moves and forgot to discuss what happens in 3950 BC when you need to start your research.

When the other three post their turns, we will need to discuss several different approaches to science. We will get a lot of lurkers there.

Oh, and don't use the Sir part. I've been Bugsy since my first squadron dubbed me with that callsign in 1985. Since regular old Bugsy was taken, and since I had just watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail; I became a temporary knight of the Round Table.

 

[mad-bax]

If you want to know what type of map it is then I can tell you.

I will play an opening, but I'd rather do it only once. I'm not one of the trainers. so I'll play 50 turns when you have.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by mad-bax
If you want to know what type of map it is then I can tell you.

Naaah... let's just Play the Game!

I loaded my savegame and hit F10...looks like the usual suspects...

 

[denyd]

Scoutsout: When you make a list of the techs the AI got to start is there one (besides The Wheel) that's not taken. If yes, that's a good tech to research as it will be a good trade value if you get it first and you won't have to worry about wasted research.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by denyd
Scoutsout: When you make a list of the techs the AI got to start is there one (besides The Wheel) that's not taken. If yes, that's a good tech to research as it will be a good trade value if you get it first and you won't have to worry about wasted research.

Hmmm... this is a finer point that's not hard to grasp, or act on. It's also one of those things that's part of the "technology attitude adjustment" when you start playing beyond Regent level.

If it wasn't for this site, I don't know that I'd have gotten as far along as I am now. It seems to me that the war-fighting tactics can be learned at any level, but the peacetime play changes fundamentally as you progress through the levels. On the lower levels, why trade techs when you can outpace them in research? The Great Library isn't even worth building at Chieftain, a crutch at Warlord and Regent, and nearly impossible to obtain at any higher level without severely cramping your growth.

In a very important way, the lower levels do not prepare you to play the higher ones when it comes to the tech race.

 

[tmarze]

I will have to set this out I will try to learn by reading what you all do.
I dont want anyone to have to wait on me I am on eastern time .
My schedule at Food Lion has been very wacky lately. Most of the time I dont get home until after 3 or 4 in the morning. If you all dont mind if I ask a lot of questions durring this.This way you all will not have to wait on me to begin playing again.Please when you all write something dont abbreviate.I have a G.E.D
only and all of these numbers and abbrevations throws me off.
Is there somewhere in these forums that can breaks down these numbers down where even a grade school kid could understand. I mean the numders that you can get off this tile or that tile.and the numbers from this and that which somehow helps a spearman to defeata horseman.

How do you turn a city that is on a floodplain into something useful besides a death chamber from decease?
If a city don't grow after temple ,barricks,and granary, what can be done to get that city to be able to generate settlers?

How do I download one of your games and to be able to play it?
I dont really know how to use any type of strategies when I play I just play moment to moment .
Lets say your on deity you just started with maybe 20 turns in
and the AI wants to trade like say his territory for yours and he
wants 80 gold and they wont lower the amount would you take it,
Even if it puts you at 0 in your bank.If you dont want to trade how do you decline without having them declaring war on you?
How do the Great Library helps with tech if you have 0 funds going into Science research I seen that somewhere in one of these forums?Even though on this deity I have not been able to get even close in getting anykind of wonder yet.

I have a lot of questions.
How do you know where to build mines and where to irrigate?
I know you mine mountains and hills but what if your city has neither just flat On these I just went like a checkerboard.
One last question before you all get me banned from here
just kidding
on one city you have all that you can Irrigate and your peaple are still going hungry what can stop this besides their dying?
See I dont know enough to play with you guys and gals yet.
and I have been playin C3C for 1 month now and Civ.3 off and on
for at least a year at Yahoo.
Thanks For all the info I am trying to use this same box.for repies to all the feedback
tmarze

 

[Turner]

Tmarze, there is a list of acronyms that can be found here. What they're talking about, fpt, spt, & gpt would be Food Per Turn, Shields Per Turn, and Gold Per Turn. This is what each tile produces each turn.

As for mining, it's personal preference. Let's say you have a city that's on a 21 tile grassland. No BGs (Bonus Grasslands) (which is rare, there should be three or four in that area) so it's all food. If you irrigate each tile, and road each tile, you'll get a total of 62 food, 1 sheild, and I think 21 gold per turn. Now, that's okay if you want a size 31 city. But it has no shield production. Considering that you can only work 20 tiles, you don't need a city bigger than 20. Every extra citizen about 20 will be turned into some kind of specialist. So what you want to do is target you food in per turn to be 40. So you alternate between irrigating and mining. If you irrigate one square, and mine one, you get a total of 4 food, 1 shield, and two commerce. So this will increase your shield production for that city, while maintaining enough food to get to a decent size.

Now, that's not considering Railroads, which add one food to each irrigated tile, one sheild to each mined tile, and one commerce to each railroaded tile.

As you can see, this can get pretty complicated. And this also isn't taking into consideration the other terrain. Or improvements that give extra production.

If you were to take our previous city, and mine each grassland, you'd get 42 food in (nice 21 pop city size), 21 sheilds, and 21 gold. Add railroads, and you're getting 42 food, 42 shields, and 42 gold. So somewhere in there you can find a happy balance to city size and shield production.

I'm going with most of these numbers off the top of my head, so I may be a bit off on one or two. But it's close to that.

 

[SolarKnight]

Playing My turns now

 

[SolarKnight]

Turn 0 4000 BC: Move scout to mountain (North and West)
Move Worker to BG to North
Move Settler NW

Turn 1 3950 BC: Salamanca founded, set to scout.
Worker starts Road on BG.
Scout moves to SW hill.

Science to max.
Set to research Bronze Working for defence.


Turn 2 3900 BC: Move Scout SW again.


Turn 3 3850 BC: Move Scout South.

Turn 4 3800 BC: Move scout SE.
Tell worker to mine.

Turn 5 3750 BC: Move scout S then W.


Turn 6 3700 BC: Salamanca: Scout -> Granary.
New Scout E then E.
Old Scout SE then E.


Turn 7 3650 BC: Old Scout E to get the Wheel from a hut.
New Scout SE to get a settler from the hut on the mountain. [dance] .
Move settler one square SW.

Turn 8 3600 BC: New Scout S then S.
Old Scout E then SW.
Move Settler SW.

Turn 9 3550BC: New Scout S.
Old Scout S.
Settler SW.

Turn 10 3500 BC: Settler SW.
New Scout S.
Old Scout SE to reveal the Amazon reinforest.
Worker SW, should have been NW

Overall, I think that was quite a successful set of turns, i've uncovered a fair amount of land, produced an extra scout and got a settler and a tech from a hut. Im going to move the settler one more square to the SW and found there to produce another strong city, it will have 6 FP tiles, FP wheat and plains squares around it and hills, and one mountain, could become quite powerful.

My World:

Scoutsout said he already saw the f10 screen, heres a screenshot so everyone elsecan see it. (if you dont want to know who we are against let me know and ill remove it).

My Save

 

[scoutsout]

To all: I apologize for the length of this post - I simply got to rambling...

Originally posted by tmarze
I will have to set this out I will try to learn by reading what you all do. If you all dont mind if I ask a lot of questions durring this. <snip>

That's what we're all here for man! The questions I ask may be different from yours, but we're all in this to get better at the game. Here's your best question:

How do you turn a city that is on a floodplain into something useful...

That's one a lot of players are working on - including me.

I have a G.E.D only <snip>

You can read - and that counts. If you can read then you can learn through this forum. The abbreviations and other stuff will come. Some of us have been on this site a while, and that's why we're a bit ahead on the acronyms.

and all of these numbers and abbrevations throws me off...

Okay - from this part of your post I can tell you're still learning some of the basics of the game (which is cool - this is a complicated game - so even the basic stuff is complicated at first).

Terrain basics - any tile on the map will produce something if a citizen is "placed" on it. (Food, shields, gold, perhaps some of all 3). If you hover your mouse pointer over a city, you'll see a menu; click "zoom to city". You'll see the "city view" with the city's center in the middle. You'll see some food, shields, and gold in the city center - those are being produced by the city itself. Each city will have at least one citizen. Among the tiles surrounding the city, you'll see some more symbols of food/sheilds/gold. That's a tile being worked by a citizen. If you click on that symbol, the citizen will change to an "entertainer". (We'll discuss these later...). Click on a square in the city's radius, and the citizen becomes a "worker" again, and produces some combination of food, shields, and gold.

Take a game you've got saved an open up one of your cities, and play with moving the citizens around. You'll see that different squares produce different combinations of f/s/g.

I'm not going to try and duplicate information that's written elsewhere, but I will discuss two basic terrain types: Grassland and Plains. A basic grassland square will produce 2 food. If it's near a river, you get 1 gold. Put a road on it, and you get another gold. Mine it, and you get a shield. A basic Plains square will get you 1 food, and 1 shield. Irrigate it, and you get 2 food. Same river/road rules apply for gold.

This improvement tactic for these 2 terrain types works well through Regent level, and are the basis of the mantra "Mine Green, Irrigate Brown". These terrain types can be mined or irrigated. Mining green and irrigating brown (and adding roads) makes these squares produce some food, some shields, and some gold, from all squares improved this way. (Bonus Grassland works like grassland, only you get an extra shield). With most other terrain types you don't get the choice of mining or irrigating. You can't irrigate a hill or mine a floodplain...(corrected...)

numbers and units

Every unit has a string of numbers. Setting "bombard" units aside, you'll have 3 numbers: Attack, Defend, Move. In the ancient age, the move number will be between 1 and 2 for land units. More on "fast" units in a minute.

Let's take 2 basic units: The archer (2/1/1) and the spearman (1/2/1). The archer is an offensive unit while the spearman is a defensive one. If an archer and a spearman meet in open terrain, and the archer attacks, each would win about half the time. (The archer's attack power equals the spearman's defensive power.) The problem is - these two units almost never meet on open terrain. Combat nearly always favors the defender. If the defender is "fortified", he gets a bonus. Fortified in a city, more bonus. High ground (hill, mountain) another bonus. Forest, jungle, also a defensive bonus. If the attacker is attacking from across a river.... you guessed it - a bonus for the defender.

Sooo... if you send an archer across a river to attack a spearman, fortified in a city that was built on a hill... you better have some more archers!

Now - fast units. Our archer can move 1 tile on unimproved terrain, 3 tiles if they've got roads (unless you cross a river, which end his move...until you've got Engineering... did I mention this is a complicated game?) On unimproved, open ground, our horseman can move 2 squares. That's kinda nice. Better, in an attack, our horseman can retreat if he's losing a battle, and live to fight another day. Unfortunately, he won't retreat if he's fighting another fast unit. If he's attacking and the defender is down to one hit point, he won't retreat. Sometimes, he simply won't retreat at all... for no apparrent reason.... BUT - on average, if you attack a city with 10 archers, at the end of the attack you'll either have the city and 1 or more archers, or you won't have any archers at all. With 10 horsemen, you'll generally have something after the attack...even if it's a handful of redlined horsemen...

Here's my advice to you: Download the game. Play your 10 turns. If you hose 'em up completely, it's cool. It's only 10 turns, and it's only a game! Seriously, play your 10 turns and compare your moves to the 10 turns made by us (your classmates) and "the destructors" (who will be "taking us all to school") and we'll all learn.

 

[scoutsout]

A settler! WooHoo! And popping The Wheel let's us peek at where all the ponies are, and there are some within reach! (Why do I feel like a scoundrel right now?)

...and you've got a nice start on the granary... an 8-turn lead compared to my start. Daaang... You could break out the whip in about 3 turns, have a granary, and a second city.

 

[SolarKnight]

Thanks Scoutsout, that settler was fantastic luck, I wasn't expecting one on Monarch. (My first Monarch game)

Normally i wouldn't have started the granary so early but i thought that seen as this was a higher level than normal, i would try to start expanding earlier.

Thanks for the critisism

 

[yoshi74]

Nice turn done by the class .

My question to the class: SolarKnights scouts have discoverd an interesting geographical thing which can be used as a advantage in the near future. To which do i refer and why would this be an advantage and how can it be used.

 

[SolarKnight]

Would this be the chokepoint leading into the jungle yoshi?

To take advantage of it, we just need to place a unit (or better a city) and the ai will not be able to send units through to the other side.

 

[yoshi74]

Yes, thats it.

A unit can block it for a while, but is quite vulvarable (to barbs, nasty neighbors) and has to leave when an ai build a city near it (unless you prefer the was). So your right, a city would be better.
Locking the chokepoint off has several benefits:
1. The ai can't settle in your land
2. You have a much better defensiv position.
3. The ai's on diffent sides of the chokepoint can meet each other until they start sailing the sea. So you're in the great position to trade with both, while they can't trade direct.
4. You can create a canal city when putting the city this way, that it has a shoretile of both seaparts in its small radius. This can save a lot of sailing time for your ships.

 

[scoutsout]

We should definitely get a settler down there as soon as we get a few core cities settled. Settled on the tile that has dyes, you could control 2 dyes from that spot, which adds additional value to it.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I spent some time looking at Scout's and Shogun's games. I'll look at SolarKnight's game soon.

@ Scout - No science budget? I know we didn't discuss this but you normal run science at either 10% (40 turn gambit) or at least fro the first tech 100%.
I would have roaded the BG just north of town before you moved your worker off it . You wasted a turn moving off, and eventually you'll need to waste another moving back on to it.

Critique for shogun

No science budget? - See above. You did road the BG before moving to the cow. The road produced an extra 7Gin commerce.

Here a write up on settler factories based on our present game. Mad-bax has set up a great situation for you in this game.

I took scout’s game at 3500 BC and played ahead. (I won't spoil anything.) I finished roading the BG, then I roaded and mined the other BG. Then I irrigated and roaded the wines. Finally, I went back and mined and roaded the third BG. Here is the situation:

You can see that by starting on the turn you grow to pop 4, you can work the cow and the grapes. This will give you the five extra food to grow your population to five in two turns. The other two citizens work the BGs and the city produces six shields per turn (spt). It appears you won’t have enough shields to gather the required 30 shields in four turns. Here is the situation on turn three of your four-turn settler factory:

When the city grows to pop 5 on turn 3, the governor in this case has automatically assigned the new citizen to work the third BG. Now you are thinking, “there are 14 shields in the box! How could that be since I was only making 6 spt before.” The reason you have 14 shields is that first the game collected the five extra food, and the city grew. The governor assigned the citizen to the BG, thus making the city produce 8 spt. Then the game collected the shields from five citizens and now you have 14 shields in the box. The nice thing about this set up is that, it doesn’t even require micro-management. In fact you will actually waste two shields in this scenario when the city grows to pop 6 on turn 4, but that isn’t anything to really worry about here.

If you had a situation like we had in SGOTM 14, the governor would assign the new citizen to a forest and you would have to move him off to get your five extra food. This situation is sailor-proof.