GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[denyd]

I did a little thinking about this and want to discuss who (if any) the target of the other island invasion.

I kind of against France & England for the reason that since they are commercial, their income is something that can be taken advantage of (selling for gpt) to further our research. It's probably best to attack Russia first before she reaches her UU (the Cossack). If I remember correctly in Vanila the Cossack is a 6-4-3 with blitz ability. The offense isn't any better than our cavalry, but that extra defensive point will make it tougher to pick off loners during Russian counterattacks. As for attacking Germany, we've got time, since the Panzer is a long ways off.

A couple of long term points:

1. We should work to ensure that Germany & Russia stay in the game. With luck they could save us 4 technologies in research.
2. We need to be aware that there are still 4 vital resources that have yet to be discovered (oil, coal, uranium & aluminum). We'll need sources for them all.
3. I haven't had a chance to look at a recent save, but do we have enough workers to rail both of our cores in a short period?
4. If we happen to get a GL while battling Russia, what are the possible uses for him?

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment: May I suggest posting an up-to-date save and pictures for those just joining/interested in following along? It'll save time spent wading through previous posts.

 

[tron]

delurk

Well, I finally found my vanilla disk, but haven't had time to install.

Some new pics would be great, but I'm sure mistfit will provide.

denyd makes a good point in the war analysis, and I believe France and Egland still have a mpp. I think it would be a mistake to go after either of them right now as we don't want to shatter both their economies. I'm not sure if I'd go after Russia or Germany first though. I haven't looked at a save, but it looks like Germany has better ground. But, it also looks like they would stand a better chance of helping us tech wise down the road.

Also, if we're going to try commie we should build up some military, and make the switch before the war. Demo can wait until after.

 

[Mistfit]

Summary: I'm not gonna give you one so you have to read the whole thing

Pre Turn:
Ok It's been a while since I've looked at this.

First off lets sell and buy our world map around before putting plans together.
Russia (polite) - gives her WM and 3 gold
Germany (polite) - gives WM and 4 gold
England (annoyed) - gives WM and 1 gold
France - (polite) - gives WM and 15 gold

When I started if I asked Joan what she would give for our world map she came back with TM and 1 gold. Since I updated ours with everyone elses in the world first she is willing to give up a bit of cash for it.

We are at 50% research and 0% lux with Scientific method due in 2.

The world knows MT and we don't. We know Medicine and Electricity over Russia, Germany, and England. The French are down Steam as well. I can sell Joan Steam for MT, 4gpt and all of her gold but I want to hold off getting MT until I can build up some more knights.

Military:
For some reason we have more Pikesman than Knights. This will have to change.
38 workers
2 swords
15 pikes
11 knights
4 cats
4 galleys
1 caravel
7 MW's
Butt load of slaves

I'm not going to put forward a military plan of attack yet because we need to build up military first. I'll leave that to a team discussion and try to set up the next player for WAR!

After looking around a bit more I change my mind. I may very well start a war during my turn set. Lets see how things work out.

Sell Joan Steam Power for MT 4gpt and 11 gold.

Move and upgrade some of our military to cavs and 2 pikes to rifles and a couple of galleys to galleons for the better movement rate

Allegheny, Awkesasne, Colleseum to Cav (we do not need the additional happiness)
Caughnawaga Cath to Cav (for the same reason)

A couple of other minor moves and MM's and we are ready. I was able to bump up the GPT to 500 from 490 with MM'ing.

IBT
Kyoto Market to worker (put everybody back to work)
Allegheny Cav to Cav
Geronimo Harbor to Galleon
Bactra Courthouse to Cav
Sidon Market to worker
Nara Settler to Settler
Gayagaahe Harbor to Galleon

Turn 1 (1110 AD )
Germany learns Communism
Move workers - my intention with the workers right now is to insure that all of our cities are connected by rail. The reason for this as opposed to improving our best cities first is because I am planning on taking most of the military off of our island to head towards war. I want to be able to react immediately to any threat.

I disband a couple of our reg units to towns making Galleons to hurry the process. I'm not a fan of reg units this late in the game. I know some of you disagree with this but hey... I'm the one with the keyboard.

IBT:
Scientific Method comes in and I start on replaceable parts for the better workers.
Geronimo and Gayagaahe Galleon to settler
Tyendenaga Bank to worker
Caughnawaga Cav to Cav

Turn 2 (1120AD)
Settle one town out west and start on a harbor

Continue the railing projects

Move transports to the west for pick up.

Switch Susa to ToE and MM it to be due in 4.

Bump science up to 80% to get Replacable parts in 4.

IBT:
Loose our supply of Ivory and Spices from the Germans and the Russians. I do not re-up these to give us more options with the up and comming war. I'm still undecided as to whom will be our next target

Oil springs Bank to Cav
Sidon Worker to Worker

Turn 3 (1130AD)

Buy Furs from England for Medicine
I make a rash decision and decide that Russia will be our next target. This will allow me to trade with the Germans. Looking around at the other continent Russia has the best looking and least jungled terrain which will help our attack with Cav's. My innitial reason for targeting the Russians ans the Germans was to be at the end of the continent. I don't like someone to be able to attack me from more than one front.

I buy spices from the Germans again for Medicine/wines/dyes

Move the workers. All of our cities are almost connected.

IBT:
Zimbabwe Uni to worker
Awkesasne, Niagara Cav to Cav
Tyendenaga Worker to Worker

Turn 4 (1140AD)
Finish the preliminary railing project. All of our cities are connected with 0 movement. I then start on our capital and will improve our cores 1st and optimize the cities as I go.

Getting closer to being able to launch our attack on Russia. Ships are moving in to start the transport.

Turn Down science 10% Rep Parts still in 2 ToE in 2.

IBT:
Grand River Uni to Cav
Sidon Worker to Worker

Turn 5 (1150 AD)
Start improving our Palace city. I've been able to bump it from making 21 shield to 28 and I still have mountains and hills to work on.

Move out our 1st load of troops towards Russia. 10 Cavs and 2 rifle.

IBT:
Replaceable parts come in and I set it to Atomic Theory and Electronics (we have at least 4 sources of rubber)
Kyoto, Zimbabwe Worker to Worker
Persepolis Bank to Cav
ToE Completes in Susa
Learn Atomic Theory and Electronics
Start on Industrialization
Susa Starts JS bach as a prebuild for a factory
Finish and start a couple of workers and galleons
Germans starting Magellan's

Turn 6 (1160AD)
Switch Salamanca from Shake's to Hoover due in 16. (railing and maximizing the city by adjusting irrigation and mines brings the city to 34 spt with 1 wasted and the build goes down to 14 turns.

I am using all of our workers to improve one city at a time. What I do is look at the F1 screen and sort the towns by shields. I pick the city with the most shields not wasted to work next. Our best city was Salamanca so I did that one 1st. Susa was next on the list so it's getting worked now.

IBT:
Zimbabwe Worker to worker
Tonawanda, Oil Springs, Allegheny Cav to Cav
Cattaragus Bank to settler
Tarsus Harbor to courthouse
Bactra Cav to Cav
Sidon Worker to Worker

Turn 7 (1170AD)
I max out Susa and now it's on to Oil Springs
The 1st of the troops arrive at the Start Point for the Russian Offensive.

I decide to investagate Smolensk to see what kind of resistance we will have and to my suprise it is guarded by 2 Spearman

So then for the fun of it I decide to check out Moscow. A bit tougher here... 4 spearman.

Well Russia has a bit of cash so I want to Bankrupt them before the war starts so they cannot upgrade.

Sell Germany Electric for Communism, WM, 41gpt and 130 gold ( I figure we will not be at war with them for 20 turns as England and France are between us.)

Sell England Communism for WM and 70 gold (we might want to war on her before 20 turns is up - she offered 17gpt)

Joan is broke so I make a gift of electric to her... I sign the card Sir Bugsy..with love.

I sell Electric to Russia for 20 gold and WM (she has no gpt to offer so shouldn't be able to bring anyone else in on an alliance)

IBT
Zimbabwe worker to worker
Niagara, Caughnawaga Cav to Cav
Arabella Bank to Court
Tyendenga Worker to Police Station
Camp Mistic Harbor to Market
London completes Shakes theater

Turn 8 (1180AD)
Switch Oil Springs from a cav to a police station(It's our 3rd best producing city and has quite a bit of corruption)
Niagara is next on the hit parade to rail and maximize

Declare War on Russia
Move troops to the mid point between Smolensk and Novgorod

Turn down science 10%

IBT:
A single Cossack comes out of Smolensk can't reach me though.
Zimbabwe Worker to Police Station
Sidon Worker to Worker
Akwesasne,Grand River Cav to Cav

Turn 9 (1190AD)
Niagara done and start on Grand River

Russian War

Outside of Smolensk
vCav kills vCossack -2hp

Battle of Novgorod (size 4 rSpear on top)
vCav kills rSpear -1hp
vCav Kills rSpear flawlessly take the city 0 gold 2 resistors
Set it to starve Start a Temple



Battle of Smolensk (size 6 cRifle on top)
vCav kills cRifle flawlessly
vCav kills vSpear but is redlined
vCav kills rSpear -2hp the city is ours 0 gold 2 resistors
Set to starve and a temple
Bring in troops from the sea directly to city for instand unloading with movement left.

Outside of smolensk
vCav dies flawlessly to vRifle 0 damage
vCav kills vRifle 1-hp capture worker

We have now captured the Russians only supply of Horses and Saltpeter... No more cossacks for you

Battle of Tblisi (size 6 rSpear on top)
vCav kills rSpear flawlessly
vCav kills rSpear flawlessly
City is ours 0 gold 4 resistors
Set to starve and temple

Can't reach another city this turn so go and capture 5 workers fussing around and set up to hit Moscow and Sverdlovsk nest turn.

IBT
Cossack and rWarrior dropped off next to Tblisi
2 rifles attack 2 MW's I brought over for Leader farming. I dies the other is redlined but beats a vRifle
We learn Industrilization and start the Corp
Resistance ends in Smolensk and it riots

Turn 10 (1200 AD)
Grand River done start working on Awkesasne

Drop off 4 Cavs on the Northern Island. That should be enough to take the whole island

Outside of Tblisi
vCav kills rCossack flawlessly
eMW kills rWarrior -1hp no leader

Battle of Moscow (size 10 rSpear on top)
eKnight kills rSpear and we get a Great Leader (Cornplanter) I name the Unit Vodka Rocker
vCav kills rSpear -2hp
vCav kills rSpear -2hp but promo's to elite
vCav kills rSpear flawlessly and we take the city, 0 gold, 4 resistors,
Set to starve and start a temple

Battle of Sverdlovsk (size 6 cRifle on top)
vCav kills cRifle -1hp promo's to elite
vCav kills rSpear -1hp
eKnight kills rSpear -1hp
We take the city, 0 gold, 4 resistors,

Cornplanter is on his way back to the Mainland ( In galleon 2 tiles S of Brighton (English))

Pass off report:

I guess I've been playing more difficult games than this one recently. I was not expecting to see rWarriors and rSpears in residence this late in the game. We should pretty much roll over Russia with in about 4 turns. (this would be quicker if she had better roads or rails. A cossack did not get a victory in my turns so if they have not had a GA they did not get one from me.

Pic of Russia:

The workers are piled together in Awkesasne the next best city is prolly Persepolis or Ganogeh so head em there.
Hoovers is due in Salamanca in 10 turns but I'd switch that to Universal sufferage as a prebuild for somthing and use cornplanter to rush it somewhere.

Have fun. This game is a bunch easier than I remember it. Must be from all of the good learn'n I've gotten here.

Thanks

THE SAVE

 

[Bede]

Nice execution Mistfit.

Given the commentary above on keeping Germany and Russia alive at least through the beginning of the the Modern Era (with which I concur) I think we need to rmember to reseaech as many "optionals" as we can afford. Clearly the war with Russia is now in the mop-up phase and we can leave them the small island cities as a refuge.

Will take a tighter look at the save tonight.

 

[DJMGator13]

Good turns Mistfit. I have two things I want to point out just for discussion purposes. I think the first was covered a long time ago but it can't hurt to repeat it.

First, where were your troops located before declaring on Russia? [Issue is ROP use and abuse]

Second, was there anyway to delay TOE since we have decided on a space finish. [Issue is age change with SCI civs in the game]

ROP use
ROP abuse while not always looked upon favorable can be a powerful tool when you are behind in a game. We have used it sucessfully in 2 recent SG's that you have been a part of with me, and it has saved the day in both games. In SGOTM05 our Xteam was able to specifically target an individual city that was building the UN against a vastly superior opponent. In Gator01 Team A we were able to acheive a capture of the Great Library in a diety level game that we were behind in. Both of theses games are linked in my sig.

TOE, free techs and age change
Not much more I can so other than the master, SirPleb, displayed the full power of a well timed TOE and the Age change with 2 other scientific civs. Here is a link to his post from COTM06 in which he used the "Big picture" to trade and acquire a second level Modern Age tech as a result of a perfectly timed TOE build. Now this cannot be done in every game but if you have a secure lead on building the TOE then it should be saved to acquire the more expensive Modern Age techs.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Joan is broke so I make a gift of electric to her... I sign the card Sir Bugsy..with love.

Thanks for trying to help me out with the lovely Joan, but after I struck the first blow against her in the Sid Vicious game, I doubt she'll ever speak to me again.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

First, where were your troops located before declaring on Russia? [Issue is ROP use and abuse]

Declare War on Russia
Move troops to the mid point between Smolensk and Novgorod

If that was a landing, which it sounds like it was. Mist was probably OK. Someone can check by seeing if we can get an ROP agreement with one of the other civs.

 

[Mistfit]

First, where were your troops located before declaring on Russia?

I did not have any troops in the enemy territory when I declared war against the Russians. I know that many of our trainers here do not look kindly upon that tactic so I avoided using it. Also there was no need to do it here as I knew that we'd want to be able to trade with Russia some time down the road.

Second, was there anyway to delay TOE since we have decided on a space finish.

Yes I should have thought of this before pulling the trigger on the ToE jump. I appoligize for this oversight.

What did you guys think of the worker management? I feel this is a weak area in my game, especially in the railing phase of the game.

What I attempted to do:
1.) get all cities connected via rail - 2 reasons; a.) to insure that we could get troops to every city instantly as I was pulling the majority of our troops off the mainland. b.) to make the 2nd phase of railing go more smoothly

2.)Look at the F1 screen and sort the cities by shields and then take all workers to the city creating the most shields (non corrupted) and maximize that city first.

Id this how you guys handle this or is there a better way?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Mist - the first railing step is exactly what I do. We call that a "strategic rail network." Then you only have to defend any cities that are within striking distance of the enemy plus any ocean front property.

As for what tiles to rail, I look at what I need to optimize a city's shield production so that you don't have any waste. Let's say you need 100 shields for a build. If you have a city producing 23 shields after corruption, then you need to increase that city's shield by two to get your product in four turns. If you can raise the production up to 34 shields after corruption, you'll have a three turn product.

If you already have a city at 35 shields, I wouldn't rail it until I didn't have better things to do.

So, following the open roster format. I think we can probably look to our next contestant in another three or four hours.

 

[Bede]

The only thing I would add to Bugsy's worker management note is that I take the low hanging fruit first, in other words rail the flat ground, concentrating on the 2s grasslands. Hills and mountains always come last, in that order, after I have railed the food producing fields,

 

[Mistfit]

Good to know. Thanks SB & Bede I appreciate all of your help in this I doubt I will take another turn in this unless it is to move the game along. I will (of course) continue to lurk/ask question/give my unasked for opinion. This is a great game for someone new learning the in's and outs of a late game push.

Come On... who is going to step up and take the mantle of the leader of the Iro Nation?

 

[DJMGator13]

Roster
just played - Mistfit
next - any brave soul, don't be shy, Bede uses big words but he is really very nice so don't be timid, step right up, the game is waiting for you

 

[Mistfit]

I'd say that if we do not get a trainee in to play today that we have one of the trainers pick it up and play a turn to keep it going.

 

[tron]

Nice turns Mistfit.

I wish I could play right now. It looks like I could take a turn on Friday, but I'd hope someone picks it up before then.

Here are some thoughts for future turns.
1. Switch Hoover to U Suff, then rush Hoovers somewhere with Cornplanter.
2. Exile Cathy to Fantasy Island.
3. After Russia are we considering a switch to communism, or should we build up some infrastructure in Republic for a few turns before we switch.
4. Switch to Communism before next war. Who should it be? I'm leaning toward Joan, but Lizzie might be okay too. Do they still have a MPP?
5. During future military campaigns we need to watch the domination limit.
6. Off continent city management has always been a problem of mine. I'm thinking it's best to starve them down first, but after that how useful are they?
7. Check the embassy on Joan and Lizzie to see what there military looks like. Could that whole continent be defended with spears??
8. Research?? I'm bad at this too. Bede made the comment about researching optionals. Can you provide more info on the reasoning?

 

[Bede]

With two scientific nations (Russia and Germany) in the game you can pull one or more of them into the next age with gifts or sales then, if you have reached that next age use the optional techs from the last age to buy the freebies they will get.

As for the off continent captured towns, starve them down, then water everything in sight and grow them back up to become research outposts or tax farms.

 

[tron]

So we'd want to coincide our reaching the next age with our gifting them into the next age? Is there a way we can predict their tech?

 

[Bede]

Nope, it is a random selection, supposedly. In Civ3 1.29 it is typically one of the top two, however.

 

[denyd]

Since were playing Vanilla it's pre-destined what you'll get at each age change (Monotheism, Nationaliam & Ecology), but on the other versions it is variable. DaveMcW wrote an excellent paper on getting free techs that can be applied when playing PTW or C3C LINK TO ARTICLE

For this game, I suggest that as you're about to discover the last required tech of an age, that you trade required techs to the AIs (richest first) until you've bankrupted them all, hopefully you'll get a couple of optional techs along the way. The when you reach the next age, gift one of the scientific AI to the next age, then trade optional, techs, cash & luxuries to get their bonus tech. On Vanilla that tech is Nationalism (not very valuable for a space race goal).

Actually, since this is being played at vanilla, there is no reason to keep Russia in the game. I'd capture what's left of Russia to reduce flip risks.

At this point in the game, I'm not sure it makes sense to war with anyone else. I would plan on using French and English cash to finance my remaining research and German science for Ecology in the Modern Age. As for government changes, I'd be leaning towards Democracy for all the monetary bonuses.


(x-post with Bede)

I think the only way to get something besides one of the default techs is to use DaveMcW's method of gifting a SCI AI to the new age and acquiring it and then getting your free tech. But this only works for SCI tribes.

 

[tron]

If no one takes it by tonight, I'll take it. I might not have the turns posted until Thursday though.