Gliese's Deity game

[Artichoker]

SB's landmass is visible in the NW corner of the map. Is there a chance of settling there? Maybe if his landmass is big enough, you might be able to reserve a section for yourself before he gets to it.

 

[DaveMcW]

I would move the pigs city 1 east, to work some cottages in the captial's radius in preparation for bureaucracy.

 

[Gliese 581]

silverbullet: I was also thinking about cultural victory here actually but the thing is I have never done it, on any difficulty. So I would need lots of help if I go that route.

Mack Jagger: Thanks for contributing, I welcome everyone to participate for this, I'm going to need it.

I think if I go for the GLH I have to do it asap as it went before 2000 bc in my last deity game. So that would mean settling marble spot now. Mining the marble for now would make that a 5-hammer tile which would help, along with the fish to work more mines and +1 from settling on a plains hill so early and even mid term production will be pretty good there.

I'm leaning towards making the attempt for GLH although it's a bit risky since it would really help my economy. Many cities don't have more than 6-8 workable tiles but I think I can fit in 10 cities with a slightly revised dotmap and a little overlap. As long as I can open borders with SB and he has a decent amount of cities they would each get 3x2 commerce instantly. But let's hope we're connected to more AIs beyond SB that his wbs hasn't met yet!

After getting (or failing to get) the GLH I could then go for the GL and follow that by either aiming for cultural win (music) or focus purely on researching economy techs with the goal of an intercontinental invasion. As many have pointed out there's at least some food available so some drafting could be done if I go that route.
I think trying for these two wonders makes sense for either strategy with the marble and island map as they will help my economy greatly. Slowing down expansion a little bit for it is almost a non-isse with this type of land as long as I beat SB to settling the west coast (if I don't I'm probably screwed anyhow).
Then there's of course also the possibility of a diplomatic victory which will have to be considered later on.

EDIT:

DaveMcW: The spot you propose has 5 forests and can be settled 1 turn faster but my marked marble spot has 4 forests, can work the mined marble for a 5 hammer tile right of the bat, is atop a plains hill for +1 prod and has several hills and the food to work them, wouldn't that be a faster spot?

 

[Maxit]

I count 6 forests for Dave McW's location.

 

[Gliese 581]

I count 6 forests for Dave McW's location.

You're right, I miscounted.

That makes it less clear what's the fastest route. Marble city is better long-term with less overlap. But Dave's spot has 41hammers advantage before working the land.

Edit: Actually Dave's spot settles 2 turns faster, 42 production then + the citizen yield (which will probably be food however though that can be converted later).

Edit2: Revised map with 9 potential coastal cities marked (can't you get rid of the damn clouds?). Every tile but 2 plains tiles to the east is being worked on this. Hmm should probably move the northeast horse city 1E to include them.

 

[Gliese 581]

I did some calculations.
I figure I'll need 3 archers initially, (defend west and east, garrison duty for 1 after the 2 visible archers are killed and 2nd city needs it).
After that Settler to get GLH asap (1 turn into it while completing archery).

Dave's city can go Sailing-Mining-Masonry-BW. (faster OB with SB)
Marble city needs to go Mining-Sailing-Masonry-BW.
BW needs to be 4th tech to not lose time in getting GLH.

With 2 workers chopping;

Dave's city gets it in 50-52 turns.
Marble city in 52 turns.

This gives us an ETA of around 1600 BC which gives us a shot.

(Whip Lighthouse at 59/60 then whip again when GLH is almost done).

Dave's spot is slightly faster and has more food (quicker regrowth)
Marble city has better tiles overall (+2 commerce from fish negates and surpasses commerce from early sailing in Dave's city and the +1 there from working a FP, marble mine unmatched prod, riverside plainshill mine yet more commerce. Only 4 forests are used, 6 for Dave's city.

I think it's pretty dead even tbh. No big difference in production. From my analysis I would give a slight nod to the marble city though because it generates slightly more commerce and is better suited to building more wonders should I go for cultural. It's also easier to defend from barbarians early on and uses up 2 forests less, freeing up workers to improve capital.

What's your thoughts?

Edit: With 3 workers though I could probably cut another 2 turns or so at Dave's spot. If there are other microlovers out there doing calculations let me know.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

play the game

 

[Gliese 581]

play the game

I would but I don't have time until sunday.

 

[Dirk1302]

I dno about ag-ah-mining-bw. You might be tight getting barb defenders up (unless horses pop near capital).

What do ppl think about wheel-pottery-ah-archery? If no horses that might be safer & give you a stronger early econ. The downside would be slower expansion. (also farm floods is 7turns, cottage is 5 if I remember well). You could improve the ivory while teching pottery and then start cottaging & growing.

I might shadow if I find the time next week. Good luck.

I've seen the start but not the first round and I'd say BurN's idea's the strongest opening here, early cottages will speed up the rest noend and you'll be in time for archery if no horses are revealed. Settlers 'll be a bit slower with cottages instead of farms but the early tech advantage more than compensates imho.

@Gliese, I'd like to try playing this way and post some progress in spoilers tags if that's ok with you?

 

[Dirk1302]

Hmm i played it until 2960 bc also so i can comment some more, cultural could be an option, don't you need some religions for that though?

As silverbullet says SB having more spy points on us than the other way around could well mean that SB only knows us, we can reach SB so we might meet others later, not sure on a fractal map. In that case our position would not be so bad.

If not GLH is not that good here and i wonder if if we could get it it goes between 2200BC and 1400 BC in the games i've seen.Oth, it doesn't cost so much trying this time as we'll have time to expand.

SB is not a fast researcher (and if neither of us meets anyone he'll probably be downright slow), our land is not good but the capital can be turned into a fearsome science capital with all these rivers. On the west coast a city can be built with 3 food resources, put NE there and you'll have lots of scientists for bulbing. So my hope would be to out research SB, subsequently take his land.

Apart from the usual suspects Monarchy (to grow the capital) and MC (Barb defence and workshops together with Caste) are very important here. If we can't trade then these 2 must take some priority and having MC i might even be tempted to research directly to optics aiming to bulb astro.The problem with this is that the capital would benefit immensely from CS also the ais could be in merc but at least we could sell resources. Also deity ais'll probably find us early anyway so i'm not sure about this.

Anyway, to find out if we can trade we'll need a workboat asap.

 

[reverend oats]

That is one nasty, barren island.

 

[silverbullet]

Dirk: the AI always agrees to trade Monarchy but will never agree to trade MC in isolation.

I doubt that bulbing in isolation will give you a lot of advantage over sitting bull if you can't trade with him. Even if he is friendly and will trade with you, he loves stealing techs and will do so as soon as you research them.

On this island I would have loved to have the Egyptian UB to get many great priests and bulb religious techs. You can do the same with Ankgor Wat, but it's hard to build it here on a city that has a decent food surplus.

 

[pigswill]

It may be worth considering that SB can't perform espionage missions without spies so you're safe until he acquires alphabet. He also can't land spies pre-optics without open borders so that's an aspect to consider though you'd lose out on external trade routes.

 

[Dirk1302]

@silverbullet,

I know i'll have to self research MC. Apart from some modifications to my plan and going cultural i don't see another plan. If Bull is too strong maybe some other civ'll qualify for takeover, on immortal isolated starts this tactic is often highly successful. I doubt Bull has enough spy points and galley's before constitution/astro to do much damage in this respect.

@pigswill, that's an interesting thought, losing out on the trade routes's too expensive though imo.

 

[Gliese 581]

I'm a bit hungover, my breath smells like a dragon and some unknown benefactor has painted my nails black so I'm not in a frame of mind to ponder strategics just yet but I'll probably play later today.

Dirk: You're welcome to run a shadow game and post some details here. I would ask that you limit your progress to my own though with any spoilers as I fear it might otherwise compromise the advice I get (hard to avoid even if it's not the intention of anyone giving advice, and I would not have people not posting from fear of it either).
It would be a great learning experience for me to check your game after I play my own rounds.

 

[Dirk1302]

^ , i know the hungover feel too well myself. Went to a concert last wednesday, met some friends in a pub afterwards and had to work next day, ugh....Luckily as a programmer i can hide behind a comp most of the day.

Thx for permission to post spoilers, i agree about synchronizing, it's more fun that way too.

 

[Gliese 581]

I played round #2 but I have to get some sleep now so I'll post it tomorrow morning. The round is up to 875 bc, (53 turns) fyi if someone is playing a mirror game.

 

[JammerUno]

If going for the oracle and metal casting is a viable strategem on this difficulty, getting the colossus might be a nice replacement for the GLH; if you get copper it's 50% off, and the AI aren't usually all that interested in MC early on. With at least 7 good ocean tiles counting the whales, it's decent enough, evn if you don't work many other watertiles. It's got nothing on the GHL, especially with SB overseas as he is, but it's a decent backup plan.

 

[Gliese 581]

JammerUno: I don't think I'll get MC in time on deity with this kind of map unless possibly I beeline it at the beginning of the third round. But if the opportunity presents itself and there's nothing else worthwhile to build in marble city at the time it might certainly help a little.
As we shall see in my next round there is a possibility MC should be researched soon, but I will rely on a discussion to figure that out.

Dirk: It indeed seems like Burn's suggestion was the best one (should've known ). Update to follow shortly.

 

[Gliese 581]

Round 2, 2920 BC - 875 BC (53 turns):

Tech order: Finished Archery, Mining, Sailing, BW, Masonry, TW, Pottery, Writing

I started by switching the build queue in Athens from barracks to settler and camped the ivory with my worker.
The second turn as archery was finished I switched to building archers and produced 3 of them while growing to size 5 before switching back to the settler. I had decided to try to go for the GLH at the marble spot and so I needed mining next to have the mines in place when I settled.

After camping the ivory my worker went down and irrigated another FP then mined the two hills for the marble city.
My settler arrived.

I rapidly discovered as I played the round that my earlier calculations where embarassingly wrong specifically as relates to the time-factor. I must have been using epic-speed year progression or such.
I had also underestimated my research speed and found out that I could go BW before Masonry without delaying the GLH, in fact speeding it up.
The first wonders started to be BIDL, GW in 2560 and SH in 2400. Judaism was founded in 1840.

Sparta started on a workboat, working the marble mine, while Athens grew to size 6 and built another archer then started on a second worker. After finishing research on BW I also got a welcome result.

With copper available I decided not to fogbust the eastern area with the hopes of beeing able to unlock the HE before a potential war breaks out. If I had not gotten any copper I would have been compelled to fogbust the horse area as a barb city there would be most difficult to dislodge pre IW/Construction otherwise. Unfortunately a combat1, cover archer with 7xp died at low odds later on. I have replaced him with a similarly promoted archer who had 5xp as I ended the round.

After the workboat was finished in sparta I began on a lighthouse, sped along by a chop as the capital built more archers and another worker. Alas, just as I was ready to whip/chop/start production on GLH it was BIDL in 1600bc. Don't try for GLH on deity unless you start in a coastal spot or you are Roosevelt or something, lesson learned. Although I suppose one could argue that we're pretty desperate in trying to build a good economy on this wretched island. Oracle went just before the GLH in 1640.

When masonry finished I had switched to TW to get my road network going and followed up by researching pottery for cottages and granaries (here I wished I'd done so much sooner!).

Confucianism was founded in 1280, the same date that I settled my third city to claim the gold on the northwest tip of the island.

I started on a lighthouse here, SB has been nice enough to supply me with a wb already but I won't get that fish before the city expands to 3rd ring and start putting in the hidden +20 culture to the tile per turn to overmatch the 3rd ring culture of SB's capital.
I decided on this spot to make sure I got there first, to work the gold and to start building culture to swap the fish tile asap. First I checked if SB had any wonders in his capital however that would have made it a hard struggle, which he unsurprisingly had not (listed as "never" under build wonders in the bts reference chart).
A turn later The Pyramids were BIDL in 1240. The first GP a great merchant was born in 1120, probably by the TOA owner (which was built earlier in 1360).
I finished Pottery and started on Writing to get some libraries up. I also founded my 4th city to claim the 3 sea food south of the gold city.

As you can see a WB scout was built in Sparta and is now exploring SB's coastline. I am building more workboats there in preparation for the 4th city. Meanwhile my workers belatedly started cottaging the first FP by Athens.
The Mahabodhi was BIDL in 950 and a GG was born abroad in 875 which was the same turn I ended my round as I'm now 1 turn away from getting writing.
I decided to stop here to discuss what to research next and what the long-term goals will be now that I missed out on the GLH.

Here's a shot of the current empire:

I've put some additional markers on it. NE has been suggested for Thebes, but what about the GT there as well in case I go for a drafting war? It's the only city available from my dotmap with more than 1 food resource. With monarchy & slavery I can whip units and overflow into the GT. But that's a later concern..
I'm thinking of switching the lighthouse build in Corinth to a library and chop it asap to get the fish faster. I'm also thinking of putting a quarry on the marble soon to trade 1hammer for 2 commerce there and to sell/trade it to SB intermittently.
Sparta seems ideal to become my HE city (how fitting!) What do you think? Capital seems good for bureacracy as previously discussed, I've started the cottage spam.
The fifth city will be in the spot Dave proposed earlier and help out with the cottage work.
I have 2 scouts that are currently useless, perhaps I should disband them to save upkeep costs, though I could save 1 for scouting SB's lands.

Demographics is not looking good but I guess that's to be expected.

I'm dead last in everything.

There's many choices to make here. First let's consider cultural victory. It seems there's a consensus that you need multiple religions to make it work. Unfortunately SB has not been able to get one thus far. Getting him to pleased would be good as that guarantees I don't get any nasty surprises apart from his dreaded army of spies. Should I try to bulb Philosophy for taoism and spread it to SB, how could I get a prophet if I do?

Being isolated with SB means few tech trades but among the techs that AIs always trade you find monarchy and alphabet so I think I should avoid teching these myself and instead try to get techs to trade for them. On the other hand, monarchy might be important enough to disregard this, and SB might steal techs before I can trade them, what say you?
I'm trading my cows for gems from SB so MC forges would give +2 happiness as long as this can be maintained and give some urgently needed defense of my fishing fleet (currently there is no defense).
Aesthetics is also ever a trusted friend and companion and could be picked to beeline TGL and make sure I get it and get it fast along with the NE and HE.
With COL already founded and the tight placement of my cities as well as my current plan to let the barbs spawn in the east making courthouses unattractive that seems like a tech that can be delayed a bit to me. On the other hand it leads to CS and is good for trading.
Currency would be great as I'm getting +3 commerce per trade route with SB.

I'm currently leaning on long-term trying to go the classical rennaisance draft war approach. Cultural seems a stretch without religions and I've never done it so it's a hurdle for me in any case.

Let me know what you think and what I've failed to consider, everyone's welcome to participate.