Dirk1302
Deity
You expanded fast which is imo good strategy on (semi) isolated starts. I chose a different approach, i'll try to post until 875 BC tonight.
Gliese's Deity game
- Thread starter Gliese 581
- Start date
silverbullet
King
Gliese:
At your stage currency is probably best. It's like a mini-GLH.
At your stage currency is probably best. It's like a mini-GLH.
Dirk1302
Deity
A few comments,
- you're unlucky, in my game SB got hinduism.
- To have a reasonable chance for GLH you need to build it pre 2000 bc on deity, this means
* your capital has to be coastal
* You have to have enough research power/prerequisites to research the appropriate techs
* there have to be enough forests/mines and you need 2 workers to chop/mine fast enough.
-Since you'll have to research everything but alpha/monarchy yourself i'd give preference to building a strong economy so currency/CS should be high on the list of priorities. Since there's no religion in your regio bulbing Taoism becomes very important , you might spend your first GS on this as long as you make sure you proceed immed with a second for academy.So researching Col is still important. Currency's important too, aest and lit should wait imo not much trade value this time. Losing GL 'd be a pity since we have marble ( i don't build this wonder without marble anymore) but it's not disastrous, being philo and with a very good NE spot we'll get gpp enough.
- you're unlucky, in my game SB got hinduism.
- To have a reasonable chance for GLH you need to build it pre 2000 bc on deity, this means
* your capital has to be coastal
* You have to have enough research power/prerequisites to research the appropriate techs
* there have to be enough forests/mines and you need 2 workers to chop/mine fast enough.
-Since you'll have to research everything but alpha/monarchy yourself i'd give preference to building a strong economy so currency/CS should be high on the list of priorities. Since there's no religion in your regio bulbing Taoism becomes very important , you might spend your first GS on this as long as you make sure you proceed immed with a second for academy.So researching Col is still important. Currency's important too, aest and lit should wait imo not much trade value this time. Losing GL 'd be a pity since we have marble ( i don't build this wonder without marble anymore) but it's not disastrous, being philo and with a very good NE spot we'll get gpp enough.
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
silverbullet: That would mean maths or alpha, since alpha is useless and can be traded for, your suggested tech path would be maths->currency then?
I think I need to make a long-term plan before I start the next round. I've been reading up a little on cultural victories (no articles post bts
).
Looking at my game I note the following:
PROs
* I'm Pericles one of the best? leaders for cultural wins. Philosophical trait for fast early GAs, Creative trait for extra culture, faster culture buildings and an UB that gives extra culture.
* I have marble which most artist wonders use.
CONs
* I didn't get The Pyramids for rushbuying.
* There are no religions present in my world.
* My land sucks for cottaging.
* I have never won a cultural victory and this is deity.
So what do you think, any culture win players out there? I'm a total newbie in this area so let me know what you think.
I think I need to make a long-term plan before I start the next round. I've been reading up a little on cultural victories (no articles post bts
).Looking at my game I note the following:
PROs
* I'm Pericles one of the best? leaders for cultural wins. Philosophical trait for fast early GAs, Creative trait for extra culture, faster culture buildings and an UB that gives extra culture.
* I have marble which most artist wonders use.
CONs
* I didn't get The Pyramids for rushbuying.
* There are no religions present in my world.
* My land sucks for cottaging.
* I have never won a cultural victory and this is deity.
So what do you think, any culture win players out there? I'm a total newbie in this area so let me know what you think.
Dirk1302
Deity
Until 875 BC
Spoiler :
silverbullet
King
I am not a culture expert, but this is what I think:
Culture will be hard on this map. Ideally you should have settle your 3 future legendary cities and then bulb taoism, to guarantee you get a holy city as one of the cultural cities.
You will need some +500 culture per city in your top 3 cities. Assuming you get hermitage in one city, free speech and 2 religions, it's 200% bonus in 2 cities and 300% bonus in 1 city. You need 170 culture per turn pre-modifiers in each city. The capital can easily do so with cottages, but in other cities you need 2 wonders (+20), theatre(+3), monasteries(+4) and odeon(+3), library (+2) and monument(+1) ready before 500AD. By 1500 AD they would double their culture value for a total of 66 culture before commerce. Even then it would be hard to get cities with 100 commerce pre-modifiers on this map. With sistine chappel every artist will contribute 6 culture, and state religion buildings will contribute additional +15 (temple, cathedral, monastery). A shrine would give some more culture and the weakest city will be compensated by culture bombs.
You can get to music first on this map, but it would be hard to grab all culture wonders.
I am also not sure about the benefit of early settled great artists. They don't double their output after 1000 years like building, so it's a fixed +12 for quite some time until you get some serious modifiers. Usually by the time you get some culture modifiers you would be better of just culture bombing. I didn't do full calculations but my hunch is that after turn 200 you can just save them for bombing.
Late cultural/diplomatic might be possible here using radio wonders and/or sushi, but that requires focus on science early.
I would go for math-currency. It will help you get the UB for some cheap hapiness.
If going there is too slow now, turn slider to 100% gold for 9 turns while hiring 2 scientists somewhere, and turn it back to 100% after academy in the (cottaged) capital is done.
Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, I tried this game and quit.
Culture will be hard on this map. Ideally you should have settle your 3 future legendary cities and then bulb taoism, to guarantee you get a holy city as one of the cultural cities.
You will need some +500 culture per city in your top 3 cities. Assuming you get hermitage in one city, free speech and 2 religions, it's 200% bonus in 2 cities and 300% bonus in 1 city. You need 170 culture per turn pre-modifiers in each city. The capital can easily do so with cottages, but in other cities you need 2 wonders (+20), theatre(+3), monasteries(+4) and odeon(+3), library (+2) and monument(+1) ready before 500AD. By 1500 AD they would double their culture value for a total of 66 culture before commerce. Even then it would be hard to get cities with 100 commerce pre-modifiers on this map. With sistine chappel every artist will contribute 6 culture, and state religion buildings will contribute additional +15 (temple, cathedral, monastery). A shrine would give some more culture and the weakest city will be compensated by culture bombs.
You can get to music first on this map, but it would be hard to grab all culture wonders.
I am also not sure about the benefit of early settled great artists. They don't double their output after 1000 years like building, so it's a fixed +12 for quite some time until you get some serious modifiers. Usually by the time you get some culture modifiers you would be better of just culture bombing. I didn't do full calculations but my hunch is that after turn 200 you can just save them for bombing.
Late cultural/diplomatic might be possible here using radio wonders and/or sushi, but that requires focus on science early.
I would go for math-currency. It will help you get the UB for some cheap hapiness.
If going there is too slow now, turn slider to 100% gold for 9 turns while hiring 2 scientists somewhere, and turn it back to 100% after academy in the (cottaged) capital is done.
Anyway, take my advice with a grain of salt, I tried this game and quit.
Dirk1302
Deity
^You quit, hmm that confirms my idea that we're in a difficult position. Indeed this game looks tough.
Maxit
Chieftain
I suppose cultural is my favorite victory type, but haven't tried anything close to Deity yet! The pros and cons you listed are right on and Silverbullet's comments cover most of the issues involved. Here's my 2 cents.
I use a GP farm to generate as many Great Artists as possible. I usually produce 10-12 GAs in a game running Caste/Pacifism with a Philo leader. The earliest produced can be settled if you know which 3 cities will go legendary (I settle maybe 2-3, but not in the apparent top city). The rest are used in a last moment great works rush (AI doesn't seem to see how close victory is - don't tell the Better AI developers).
The nine cities you dotmapped would allow the 3 cities to have 3 cathedral type culture multipliers in each legendary city --> need 3 religions in every city for temples.
I generally beeline Drama for earliest possible theaters, Music for free GA. Best civics are Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Caste System, Free Market and Pacifism. Teching ends (90-100% culture slider) with Democracy or last military tech.
Downsides: 1) It will be a challenge to get three religions in time on this start. Even on Monarch, it's pretty tough if you don't get your 2nd religion until AD1500. 2) I get comfortable wins on Monarch and Immortal is quite challenging - but Deity? Chances are, some AI will launch a spaceship or overrun you with tanks. 3) This map is SUB-optimal, but that would affect *all* victory conditions, no? I'm not even sure how well this map would play out at Monarch, but the marble and copper sure help for some of the religious buildings. Depending on which religions you get, having no stone could hurt (like in my last game).
ATC, the odds could be stacked against you in this situation. The question is: what would be a better alternative?
I use a GP farm to generate as many Great Artists as possible. I usually produce 10-12 GAs in a game running Caste/Pacifism with a Philo leader. The earliest produced can be settled if you know which 3 cities will go legendary (I settle maybe 2-3, but not in the apparent top city). The rest are used in a last moment great works rush (AI doesn't seem to see how close victory is - don't tell the Better AI developers).
The nine cities you dotmapped would allow the 3 cities to have 3 cathedral type culture multipliers in each legendary city --> need 3 religions in every city for temples.
I generally beeline Drama for earliest possible theaters, Music for free GA. Best civics are Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Caste System, Free Market and Pacifism. Teching ends (90-100% culture slider) with Democracy or last military tech.
Downsides: 1) It will be a challenge to get three religions in time on this start. Even on Monarch, it's pretty tough if you don't get your 2nd religion until AD1500. 2) I get comfortable wins on Monarch and Immortal is quite challenging - but Deity? Chances are, some AI will launch a spaceship or overrun you with tanks. 3) This map is SUB-optimal, but that would affect *all* victory conditions, no? I'm not even sure how well this map would play out at Monarch, but the marble and copper sure help for some of the religious buildings. Depending on which religions you get, having no stone could hurt (like in my last game).
ATC, the odds could be stacked against you in this situation. The question is: what would be a better alternative?
Dirk1302
Deity
@Maxit, "teching ends at demo", mass media gives broadcast towers, shouldn't that be researched too? Or does it take too long, it costs a lot of turns that the slider could have been near 100% culture of course.
I have 2 religions already, can probably tech theo and divine right and bulb philo on the way.I don't have any experience with cultural so i probably stay on the science path. I'll try cultural some time in a more friendly environment.
I have 2 religions already, can probably tech theo and divine right and bulb philo on the way.I don't have any experience with cultural so i probably stay on the science path. I'll try cultural some time in a more friendly environment.
I prefer beelining Sushi, which gives more food (=artists) and culture. In most of games you can trade for AL then, which means you can at least survive some attacks. That works on immortal, but of course deity is totally different.
fjordan
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2007
- Messages
- 210
I have had my few Cultural wins with all three of the culture corps combined. Advantage is you can delay that VC because most of your culture will be generated in a rush at the end. Problem ofcourse is that you need resources, so we are back at the crappiness of your island.
I still think you should attack SB. He is not a very good trading partner so his land is better in your own hands. Again, a cats/elephant rush seems very well possible, using the whip a lot (you do have two happy resources). Okay, a small detour to Currency for extra cash during build-up will probably be best, but after that, HBR and Construction. If you choose this path you should go for quality (relatively that is) over quantity of cities on your own island.
I still think you should attack SB. He is not a very good trading partner so his land is better in your own hands. Again, a cats/elephant rush seems very well possible, using the whip a lot (you do have two happy resources). Okay, a small detour to Currency for extra cash during build-up will probably be best, but after that, HBR and Construction. If you choose this path you should go for quality (relatively that is) over quantity of cities on your own island.
Dirk1302
Deity
I indeed intend to attack SB if i see a possibility (no steel, preferably no rifling there), he'll have protective totempole CG3 longbows however when i get there so i think i'll need something more substantial than cats and swords.
Some resources for Sushi are there, not too much especially since i squandered a fish, cultural is out for me this game though, i have no idea how to play it in the first place.
Some resources for Sushi are there, not too much especially since i squandered a fish, cultural is out for me this game though, i have no idea how to play it in the first place.
fjordan
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2007
- Messages
- 210
Question is, how fast wil SB have his longbows up without trading? If you can get a decent beachhead before that your phants may be able to ckoke him to death. You may even be able to post in TMIT's thread that you found a use for pillaging. And it will probably the best way to get some of his techs. Dunno if this works though, it is all about speed.
Dirk1302
Deity
i don't think i'll have production online in time, i definitely need to hit before lb's to have a chance, it's deity so Bull'll have far more units than i have meaning that i'd need a fair amount of phants to defend my stack in the first place. I'd need some galleys too and having Corinth not on the north western edge becomes even more important. Even against CG2 archers i'd need a good cat stack. Even if it works i'd be behind in tech and while that doesn't hurt that much on other levels it's painful here.
Seems impossible to do all this but i'll keep it at the back of my mind. Feel free to take my save and try yourself, i'm kind of interested in what would happen. Mind Gliese's spoiler rule though no updates beyond his latest update (875 BC atm).
Seems impossible to do all this but i'll keep it at the back of my mind. Feel free to take my save and try yourself, i'm kind of interested in what would happen. Mind Gliese's spoiler rule though no updates beyond his latest update (875 BC atm).
silverbullet
King
I think phants war is out of the question on this map. It's questionable on most deity maps, but especially here with a separate island, no military trait, and a super-protective leader.
Astronomy seems almost a must here to have an effective war. It's also a good tech to get ahead in tech and get rifling on time, you might want to try and grab it from liberalism.
Astronomy seems almost a must here to have an effective war. It's also a good tech to get ahead in tech and get rifling on time, you might want to try and grab it from liberalism.
For what's it worth, I think a fast cultural victory (cottages, ceasing advancement entirely shortly after liberalism) isn't in the cards.
A specialist-driven one relying on wonders and, eventually, corporations looks more feasible than going for a space race though.
Whether there is the possibility of an easy and gainful war that changes everything yet remains to be seen.
A specialist-driven one relying on wonders and, eventually, corporations looks more feasible than going for a space race though.
Whether there is the possibility of an easy and gainful war that changes everything yet remains to be seen.
Maxit
Chieftain
On Deity, I wouldn't expect there to be enough time to reach Mass Media. I agree with Iranon that my general strategy for lower difficulties really isn't likely to work here. The main point of my post was my opinion that a cultural victory probably isn't viable, but I'm not sure about Iranon's suggestion. IMHO, the best hope is "an easy and gainful war."
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
It's good to see the discussion has gained some momentum again. I've played a third round up to around the ADs and things have taken a turn for the worse.
Having ivory and horses is very good news for you. Ivory means that you can get a bunch of WEs and then upgrade them to cuirassiers once MT is in speeding up the war a great lot (assuming you get iron). I don't think an elephant war is the best call here as you'll need to put a lot of hammers into galleys and the opponent is SB.
I see a lot of food resources with a lot of poor tiles and you have an amazing capital location and the philosophical trait. With that in mind pushing for education with its cheap universities and Oxford seems natural. Seeing as you have a lot of food (but poor tiles) and the PHI trait aggressive lightbulbing is good. You can get GSs from several cities and you're probably able to get to liberalism first despite isolation. You can then pick nationalism and construct the Taj (you have marble) followed by MT and a war.
By aggressive lightbulbing I mean almost the entire liberalism line starting with paper. I haven't looked at the most recent round, but you should have your academy up by now so that leaves philosophy (1), paper (1), education (2) and liberalism (1) -- 5 more. With Pericles this shouldn't be too hard -- he's a lean mean SE machine.
Things might change as the game progresses, but I think the start is OK (-), especially considering 2 resources and the fact that your neighbour won't DoW when pleased.
I see a lot of food resources with a lot of poor tiles and you have an amazing capital location and the philosophical trait. With that in mind pushing for education with its cheap universities and Oxford seems natural. Seeing as you have a lot of food (but poor tiles) and the PHI trait aggressive lightbulbing is good. You can get GSs from several cities and you're probably able to get to liberalism first despite isolation. You can then pick nationalism and construct the Taj (you have marble) followed by MT and a war.
By aggressive lightbulbing I mean almost the entire liberalism line starting with paper. I haven't looked at the most recent round, but you should have your academy up by now so that leaves philosophy (1), paper (1), education (2) and liberalism (1) -- 5 more. With Pericles this shouldn't be too hard -- he's a lean mean SE machine.
Things might change as the game progresses, but I think the start is OK (-), especially considering 2
resources and the fact that your neighbour won't DoW when pleased.Similar threads
