Gma02: “First Come, First Severed” - Training Day Game

[gmaharriet]

And the first dotmap

@gma - 4000BC is turn 0 and 3000BC is turn 20. Look at the turn count in
the CA2 alerts window if you have any doubt.

Thanks, Bede. I figured that must be the case. It's been so long since I've played an SG and had to count the turns. I generally use MapStat for alerts and CA2 only for special analyses. F6 told me I was off.

I certainly learned about the value of CA2 in your Aabra01 challenge, but could use a whole course in where else it works better than MapStat. Maybe an occasional discussion about that could be a part of this game???

Your proposed townsite looks lovely and captures the wheat. I guess we aren't concerned with CxxC spacing for military coverage? It will certainly make for a very powerful core. I'm fine with it if that's what you recommend. I've just gotten so used to the closer spacing and less power in the later game.

 

[Bucephalus]

Question for Tone...I got the smaller pic, but now have tons of white space in the pic. Do you have a handy solution for that?

If you press Ctrl + E you get 'attributes' which appears to give the option of re-sizing in inches or centimetres; might that help?

 

[Aabraxan]

Question for Tone...I got the smaller pic, but now have tons of white space in the pic. Do you have a handy solution for that?

You can also resize the "leftover" white area by clicking on & dragging the tiny, nigh-invisible blue squares found on the corners and in the middle of the sides of the white rectangle:

 

[Bede]

Your proposed townsite looks lovely and captures the wheat. I guess we aren't concerned with CxxC spacing for military coverage? It will certainly make for a very powerful core. I'm fine with it if that's what you recommend. I've just gotten so used to the closer spacing and less power in the later game.

And there I was waiting for you to flame me for what looks like OCP!

Maybe someone else will take up the cudgels.

And the only way to get the wheat is kul-cher, and we can't build libraries - so what does that leave?

< What can he be thinking>

 

[Aabraxan]

Edited:

Sorry, I posted the wrong dotmap a moment ago.

Why the yellow dot? It seems a long way out. My gut says go here, and put the 3rd city by the wheat.

 

[Kickbooti]

And the only way to get the wheat is kul-cher, and we can't build libraries - so what does that leave?

< What can he be thinking>

 

[scoutsout]

I love dotmapping.

IMO - "Red Dot" has potential for sharing the steaks at the cookout... but it will crowd the capitol in the long haul...

Looking at the Monk's crosshairs... I see a couple of alternatives from that spot. Moving it 1 NW or 1 NE would keep it on the river, capture the incense within the cultural borders... and not crowd the river to the south quite so much.

Have a look at the southerly river gang... there are a couple of spots down there that may have nice potential. Irrigated plains tiles are nice to work with these non-industrious workers....

 

[gmaharriet]

I see a couple of alternatives from that spot. Moving it 1 NW or 1 NE would keep it on the river, capture the incense within the cultural borders... and not crowd the river to the south quite so much.

And not cross, as well as crowd, any river so much.

Looking at those 2 spots, I'm think the one NW. It would require a military unit going there from Entremont to only cross 1 river before reaching its destination. The NE spot would take 2 river crossings, pretty slow before Engineering. Since either spot would be too far for a single move on roads between cities anyway, the NW one would keep stops to a minimum.

Have a look at the southerly river gang... there are a couple of spots down there that may have nice potential.

Maybe one just E or SE of the goody hut could get us something nice and still be on a river.

I won't attempt a dot map. Mine look like they were done by a kindergartener with those big fat crayons.

 

[Bede]

If I had to choose right now I would go 1NE from the crosshairs. That loses the incense for 30+turns or until we put kul-cha into the second city but does put the town right next to a riverside wheat.

I am not so concerned about a more defensible placement in these early towns because if all goes as planned and even if it doesn't we will be carrying the mayhem to them and not waiting for them to bring it to us, our objective is Domination and these are the cheapest tiles we will pick up in the whole game so let's get as many of them as we can before we have to start throwing 40 shield troops at city walls to get them, and I want to force some culture buildings early (they are cheap for us) so we don't have to put up with too much flippage when we start the rampage. That was one of the tactical errors in Aa01 by the way. You might have had an easier time against the Indian culture if some culture had been built in the Byzantine first core.

The other part of my thinking here is to not crowd the capitol to the east at all, as we will be crowding it from the west when we build the coastal city at the river mouth. I wil want to have as many land tiles as we can squeeze available to that town so for all practical purposes from the NW hill west is out of bounds for Entremont.

Going 1NE from the crosshairs cedes the two bonus grass fields on border with Entremont to whatever city we found in the south, and loses the immediate benefit of the incense. Some interesting choices here.

Of the immediate choices available to us the red dot has the least to offer. It takes too many fields away from Entremont, and does not add enough to make up for it.

So, in conclusion, I still like the crosshair site the best. <Now that I have painted a target on my chest, have at me, gang>

 

[Elephantium]

And there I was waiting for you to flame me for what looks like OCP!

Maybe someone else will take up the cudgels.

And the only way to get the wheat is kul-cher, and we can't build libraries - so what does that leave?

< What can he be thinking>

lurker's comment: WTF, Bede? Are you seriously advocating that we employ prevaricating parasites that prey on the body politic?

 

[choxorn]

Honored lurker's comment: I say 1 NW of the crosshairs.
And guys, you are religious, temples can be whipped for one citizen.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . our objective is Domination and these are the cheapest tiles we will pick up in the whole game . . .

Would this make any difference to the analysis?

Victory Condition: Conquest, but all victory conditions will be left on.

. . . . Of the immediate choices available to us the red dot has the least to offer. It takes too many fields away from Entremont, and does not add enough to make up for it.

Yeah, um, for future reference, team, don't leave city placement up to me. It's not exactly my strong suit.

 

[downhill]

lurker's comment: A few thoughts/questions:

(1) I'm not experienced enough to have a full understanding of all the dynamics of climate, age, precipitation, etc. Does an old world have fewer mountains and commensurately more hills? Or does it have more flatlands than younger worlds? If the latter, are there fewer total sources of iron? Or are the sources simply more concentrated in the fewer number of hills and mountains? If there are more flatlands, I would lean toward making sure we capture our mountain range before someone else does. (Of course, this idea has to be balanced with making our early lands as productive as possible. Ideally, those mountains would be captured by cultural expansions, rather than in the original nine.)

(2) Following that line of thinking, it seems important to determine whether we have a civ to the north of us. As we see the edges of tundra and are in the northerly latitudes, any civ to the north of us will be pressing us very quickly from that direction, threatening our wheat, rivers, mountains, and fertile grasslands. If there is no civ to the north, we may have the luxury of following scoutsout's suggestion to settle south fairly soon, after which we could backfill north.

(3) In ordinary games, I generally choose between CxxC and OCP based on how food and river-rich my core is. In games of a more military flavor, I would lean more toward CxxC. In this case, however, we are so blessed with rivers that CxxC won't deliver its military logistics benefits until after engineering. Our civ and our start seem to militate for Bede's OC placement; an early granery, rivers alleviating the need for acqueducts, and our food bonuses (both terrain and trait-based) will allow rapid growth, while our UU and chosen vehicle of destruction has an extra movement point that will make CxxxC work for reinforcement.

(4) Re: Bede's culture question: As the Celts, we start with ceremonial burial so a temple is possible. As we are religious, it is cheap. It is the obvious solution, but curmudgeonly Benedictines seldom like obvious solutions or temples. However, temples are only bad when they don't achieve a return that outweighs the initial investment and cost of carry. Allowing us to space cities for a stronger long-term core and to bring food bonuses and/or luxes online can be an investment with strong NOI and a quick payback. FGS! (or, as I try to remember it, Food=Good Start). If we can spend shields to get an appropriate return in food or gold, I'm okay with it. So...I like the clerical croshairs with a clerical build in the not too distant future. That combination will get us both the wheat and the smoke. A full thurible will quickly pay for its upkeep by allowing us to notch down the slider. This placement also gets us four mountains in the right part of the BFC.

 

[downhill]

lurker's comment: Thoughts on tech path:

In this variant, we are going to be forced to war with our UU as soon as possible. As such, we are going to have an early GA. Thus, the beeline to monarchy makes a lot of sense.

While I think I'd want to stay with the monarchy beeline, how important is being able to see iron as soon as possible? We have a goodly number of mountains around us, not all of which will be priority positions for early settlement.

I guess my suggestion would be to keep a very close eye on the trading situation (once we manage to meet someone and end our desolation). I'm seldom a fan of hoarding techs, but in this case I feel even more strongly so. We are not going for the philosophy slingshot so there is no strategic reason to hold back any techs.

Finally, as no one starts with ironworking, it will take a few research cycles before ironworking is out for trade. As the AI can see all resources at all times, they'll have a headstart on settling iron.

Our early move to WC may turn out to have been a very smart play if we are forced to capture our iron by the sword bow.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:
While I think I'd want to stay with the monarchy beeline, how important is being able to see iron as soon as possible? We have a goodly number of mountains around us, not all of which will be priority positions for early settlement.

. . . .​

Our early move to WC may turn out to have been a very smart play if we are forced to capture our iron by the sword bow.

This may not answer the question of importance, but the earlier we see iron, the earlier we're at war. In this variant, we have some flexibility in when we declare war. The OP stated that "[o]nce we have amassed 5 Gallic Swords or, alternatively, discovered that we lack iron within our cultural borders with which to build them, we must prepare for war."

We will change this variant as follows:
Iron is the key.

We may research technologies in any order we desire.

Once we research Iron Working, we must immediately begin preparing for war. We must immediately begin building Gallic Swords, if possible. Once we have amassed 5 Gallic Swords or, alternatively, discovered that we lack iron within our cultural borders with which to build them, we must prepare for war.

I think what was actually meant was that once we've met those conditions, we must declare war. Gmaharriet, can you clarify that? Postponing researching IW until after the switch to Monarchy (which may or may not be the smart move) would delay the GA until we're out of despotism.

As far as those mountains, if we know one has iron, the iron automatically becomes priority. For me, locating iron and horses is always an early priority for settlement planning.

I agree on WC. I'd sure like to have GSs when we go a-warring, but I just didn't want to have to send a stack of warriors.

 

[downhill]

This may not answer the question of importance, but the earlier we see iron, the earlier we're at war. In this variant, we have some flexibility in when we declare war. The OP stated that "[o]nce we have amassed 5 Gallic Swords or, alternatively, discovered that we lack iron within our cultural borders with which to build them, we must prepare for war."

I think what was actually meant was that once we've met those conditions, we must declare war. Gmaharriet, can you clarify that? Postponing researching IW until after the switch to Monarchy (which may or may not be the smart move) would delay the GA until we're out of despotism.

I agree about the GA. That's why I like beelining Monarchy before going for iron.

I also agree that we have some flexibility in when we go to war. That's the way I read the OP. This raises an interesting strategic question. Should we defer learning IW as long as possible? Or should we head to it directly after learning Monarchy?

If we believe we are likely to have iron, it obviously makes the most sense to get there quickly. The sooner we get GS, the more dominating they will be. If we believe we are unlikely to have iron, might it make sense to get to maths before we go to IW? Archer/'pult stacks managed by human generals will be invincible against anything the early ages throw at us. If we're missing the higher defense strength and the retreat capacity of the GS, 'pults will allow us to avoid excessive losses.

The problem is that this question depends on some crystal ball gazing. The only thing showing in my ball is a surfeit of mountains in an old, softly curved world. That does make iron more likely.

 

[greygamer]

I have a few questions;

Dot Maps
Is there anywhere I can find a brief explanation of how to create/interpret them? I can do screenshots with paint etc.

Scouting
There was some mention of 'cardinal' direction what does that refer to. My usual approach is to always try and move to reveal the most tiles and head for mountains/hills.

the GH to our south
Is there a reason we haven't triggered it yet? I tend to make these prime targets.

What chance is the AI likely to start an Early War?
IOW do we need to think about garrisons for our new cities as soon as we make contact with another civ?



Observations:
I agree with much that has been posted here recently. One north of the X would be my choice, gets us the wheat will bring in incense at around the time we will need it most. Assuming we exploit our religious trait by building cheap temples it has plenty of lumber to clear helping speed early improvements (temple/granary/barracks). If we are alone on this continent going to sea is going to become important really soon 4 SE of the x looks good for a 3rd/4th city or somewhere west of our original city. My preference is for building a worker before another settler, but given the wheat resource a settler first also looks good. I'm a bit obsessive about workers and tend to build lots and find I always need another one, even when I'm industrious.

 

[Bede]

I like the way you guys think - it is very refeshing when you even see past the TGOM's little prevarications and misdirections.

1) Whipping in temples in a food rich situation is a real strong play for a REL/AGRI nation. It is cheap culture, gets some unhappiness dealt with (that's worth the 1g in maintenance right there as it relieves at least 1MP from garrison duty and sends him to the front)

2) Sandbagging iron until we had built a strong base position was always part of my plan to prevent distraction by war. Our terrain is such that the likelihood of having some is pretty good so I am not worried about that part of the equation.

3) I am a known "variant buster" from way back and even warned gma about that, so forgetting the Desired Victory Condition doesn't surprise me, but it doesn't change my thinking about early city placement a great deal given that we have a fast moving UU and that tactically we shouldn't be fighting any wars in the core. More land=more food, more gold, more power to go a conquesting with, and also less fiddly micromanagement. <I'm getting lazy in my dotage, well, I've been lazy since I was born, does that mean I was a doddering old geezer in in my short pants and nappies?>

4) In response to downhill's query about where the fugawe, if you look at the mini-map in the second post it puts us in the north center. And since we have already discovered tundra to the east I would hazard the conclusion that there are only barbarians to the north. The Conquests map generator is usually pretty generous when it comes to not marooning an AI in the icy wastes on this type map. Different strokes for different folks if you change the parameters,though.

5) As for terrain types the extent of mountains we can already see is somewhat atypical of the map type and may reflect the northerly start position. Usually this type map is well watered and pretty flat with little terrain variation, though hills will pop up in patterns of ridgelines, widley separated though. As for resource concentration to be hionest I never really made a study of that other that to note that rubber and oil and coal are usually found in jungles.

 

[scoutsout]

@Bede: I'm 99.99&#37; unconvinced that 1NE from the crosshairs will lose you the incense for 30+ turns. I believe that this position would place the incence tile with a border from the capitol and a border from the new town... creating a border around the incense tile.

The spot NE of the crosshairs (south of the wheat) is a powerful spot, IMO.

@Whomp: Didn't we have a discussion at some point about claiming tiles beyond the 9x without kulcha?

@greygamer:

On dotmaps: Use the <PrintScrn> key to dump the screenshots to the windows clipboard, then paste them into any image editor...I like to have the grids enabled in-game before taking my screenshots, as it makes it easier to sketch the lines in.

As for how to analyze them... there are different schools of thought on this. Some prefer to consider the full 21 tiles of a properly developed city... I like to look at the 9 tiles claimed by the initial settlement, plus any additional tiles claimed by filling in gaps...

"Cardinal Directions": North, South, East, and West. If you look at the orthagonal construction of CivIII map, you'll see that you will generally see more territory and make more contacts if you keep your scouting units headed in these directions...

A tactial consideration... the monarchy beeline is quite do-able without Iron. Trade possibilities will open up after the 2nd contact is made. I once played a game hosted by Denyd that was called "Master of the Bow" or something like that. We played as Germany, and we were allowed to build nothing but Archers, Longbows (upgraded to Guerillas) and Panzers. Amusing variant...

My tactical advice: Don't place all your eggs in the warriors-to-Gallic-Swords gambit. Build some archers and (Bede'll love this) an occasional spear. A spear and a pair of archers is nice for holding a spot of high ground. Remember this: defending cities is only one use of defensive units... defending your offensive units is the higher calling of the defensive unit.

Edit: Wicked cross-post with TGOM...

 

[Bede]

I have a few questions;

Dot Maps
Is there anywhere I can find a brief explanation of how to create/interpret them? I can do screenshots with paint etc.

Not quite sure how to respond to this one as I don't know how much detail you are seeking.

Scouting
There was some mention of 'cardinal' direction what does that refer to. My usual approach is to always try and move to reveal the most tiles and head for mountains/hills.

Cardinal directions are north-east-south-west. The map grid appears tilted but if you lay a compass rose in the center of a tile it would have north at the top in the angle not on the the boundary. Exploring through the angles of the grid will reveal more area than exploring through the boundaries. Hence my preference for cardinal directions.

the GH to our south
Is there a reason we haven't triggered it yet? I tend to make these prime targets.

Popping hits at Emperor unless you are an expansionist nation, or have no military, is a bad deal, especially one so close to the capitol. You will more often than not get yokels who will then proceed to annoy your citizens and tear up the improvements. As I like to say, four things can happen when you pop huts and three of them are bad.

What chance is the AI likely to start an Early War?
IOW do we need to think about garrisons for our new cities as soon as we make contact with another civ?

Chances are really pretty low since there will always be at least one warrior in each city once it grows to two. And since barbs are active in this game I would not leave even a pop1 town ungarrisoned for very long anyway. Farmer's gambits can be fun but are way too nerve wracking for what this game is all about.


Observations:
I agree with much that has been posted here recently. One north of the X would be my choice, gets us the wheat will bring in incense at around the time we will need it most. Assuming we exploit our religious trait by building cheap temples it has plenty of lumber to clear helping speed early improvements (temple/granary/barracks). If we are alone on this continent going to sea is going to become important really soon 4 SE of the x looks good for a 3rd/4th city or somewhere west of our original city. My preference is for building a worker before another settler, but given the wheat resource a settler first also looks good. I'm a bit obsessive about workers and tend to build lots and find I always need another one, even when I'm industrious.

I trust you really meant 1NE or 1NW of the X, rather than 1N. 1N puts the city center on a bonus grass and since we have lots of other equally good spots that would not be the strongest move, though you will regain that lost shield once the town grows to 7 and the nation is no longer ruled by a despot.