[BTS] Going for 1st prince win

[dankok8]

That is pretty cool, I wasn't aware of that. Do you think I should go for masonry after AH? Also I was aware that I needed mining before BW. That's kinda why I was wondering if BW was worth going after first, that way after I have another settler I know where copper is.

I went ahead and played the first 15 turns. Here's what I'm working with so far. Zulu is north of me, I'm not sure how far he is though. I was thinking of settling on top of the gold, would that be a good play? I'm also planning to move my 1st warrior west and have him circle around if I can, while the 2nd warrior fog busts the south.

Spoiler :

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[\SPOILER]

No need for Masonry so early. You don't really need the Great Wall because you're on the edge of Pangaea. I would build the Pyramids but you've got time for that. Like lymond said, I may even got Writing before Masonry especially since you've got Stone auto-hooked up! After BW, I'd probably go Pottery. After you chop the forests, you'll want to put down some Cottages and of course get a Granary in Kyoto. Granary is the most important building in the game.

Also see if AH and BW reveal any Horse and Copper nearby, respectively and then decide where to settle. So far I like settling 1 E of Corn because it gets both Corn + Gold in the first ring and an Oasis. That's a nice city. You don't want to settle on a forest because that destroys it but I may do it here.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Okay guys, I played the next 15 turns and here's the situation. Sadly I couldn't move my warrior much because I had to fortify and heal twice. As far as where to scout, should I move westward to avoid all the jungle or north to find Shaka and Saladin? This turn also just happened to produce my settler, so do you guys think I should still go with 2nd gold city and then go downward for horse for 3rd? I'm leaning towards settling 1N of the gold. Once I do settle, what should I focus on building in the 2nd city? I'm assuming at some point I would build granary and library?

Also thanks for letting me know lymond, I'll post saves from this point on. Here's current turn and last save

Spoiler :

[\SPOILER]

 

[lymond]

Worker should be chopping not mining. Normal mines are very low priority compared to chops. At this point that worker would be just about to finish a chop into a new worker (which was the right thing to build)

That warrior should be outside your borders...ideally spawnbusting the new city area.

1N of Gold is what I would do. Production wise just working gold is very good, but I'll often just settle a gold spot to work the gold since its such an OP boost to commerce early. In this case, city 2 can use cows to grow while the gold is being improved so makes it pretty good until it gets its own corn.

Probably just build a warrior in city 2 for now...nothing really to build yet.

That horse is very awkward spot...very low priority in my view unless you absolutely need it. Can be grabbed eventually from a cities 2nd culture pop or just settle on it later for the resource (there is no food at all).

Copper may very well determine your next settle. Both fish spots are quite nice.

 

[lymond]

edit: Well that was my point earlier on heavily jungled areas...not only are they not worth settling...at least for some time..but they are death traps

Anyway I might move him back toward the clam spot to fogbust

City 2 has oasis so can work that to grow before gold is improved...Kyoto can keep cows for now.

Once you settle city 2 you hit deficit research. This is a point where you start running binary research or 0% or 100% slider..not in between. Earn just enough gold to fund the next tech.

Nevermind..you could not chop yet...derp

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I had the warrior fog bust the south coastline and brought him back to escort my settler. Even though it's not far away I'd rather not risk losing him. Since I can't chop for another 12 turns, do you think I should cancel the mine and just build a road to the 2nd city, then mine the gold? And for the 1st warrior, you're saying I should take him back east and scout north? Then use the 2nd one to scout west? One thing I am wondering about research, is there an ideal ratio I should have between science and espionage, or should it all be 100% science or 100% espionage or 0%, depending on the turn?

 

[lymond]

I had the warrior fog bust the south coastline and brought him back to escort my settler.

Keeping an area nearby completely free of barbs > escorting a settler.

By the way a unit spawnbusts a 5X5 tile area from the spot he stands on ..that is what we mean when we say spawnbust or fog bust. No barb will spawn in that area or on a visible (lighted) tile.

Early on units should be busting the areas around your cap where you will settle...you can get a feel for this based on borders and lighted tiles.

For example. look at your poor jungle adventurer up there in your last screenshot. All 6 lighted tiles around him cannot produce a barb, but also every dark or fogged tile within 2 tiles from where he stands including the diagonals.

Even though it's not far away I'd rather not risk losing him.

Won't lose him if he fortifies on a hill W of Kyoto and prevents barbs from appearing. Anyway at this point you are dealing with animals and maybe barb warriors at some point.

And keep in mind that the fact that your warrior is not out there technically slows your settler as you could move your settler 3 tiles but that is blind and dangerous right now cause there is not warrior out there that can "see".
(but you can move settler 2W of Kyoto for now and then 1N of gold..not difference really..but the point is the point

Since I can't chop for another 12 turns, do you think I should cancel the mine and just build a road to the 2nd city, then mine the gold?

Mine is fine...complete it and then the road to new city..then gold.

And for the 1st warrior, you're saying I should take him back east and scout north? Then use the 2nd one to scout west?

1st warrior can mosey back to 1N of the bananas...decent bust spot for now.

2nd warrior should have been busting your new city spot as mentioned. I'm not overly concerned with scouting. Once city 2 is settled you can move 2nd warrior further west some to scout a few tiles away and then bust.

Warrior 3 I would like 1E of the horse below which busts that whole area down there for now.

One thing I am wondering about research, is there an ideal ratio I should have between science and espionage, or should it all be 100% science or 100% espionage or 0%, depending on the turn?

Espionage? why are you even thinking about espionage slider?..ha...please put that idea out of your mind

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Lol, I was never sure how to use espionage, does this mean it's not important? The game I originally started the thread with, I mainly used spies to scout nations that didn't have open borders with me. I'm on turn 45 now, here's my progress. Luckily I have copper nearby but I'm not sure which tile to settle on. Any other general thoughts would also be great. I did turn off research twice because I was running out of gold. I also chopped 3 forests in the capital, but I wasn't sure if that was a good move or not. Should I save the rest of them for pyramids?

Spoiler :

[\SPOILER]

 

[lymond]

Lol, I was never sure how to use espionage, does this mean it's not important? The game I originally started the thread with, I mainly used spies to scout nations that didn't have open borders with me.

Glorious waste of hammers ...I did say that game was a right hot mess. Anyway we won't be paying much mind to espionage. The minimum you can do is set focus to Mansa Musa for now which will eventually let you see what he is teching. So you focus it on the best techer you know and that is Mansa (he's the best in the game and trades freely with anyone..only AI in the game that does so). So a passive way of using your points.

On a general note, as you learn here your perspective will start to change hopefully so that you value every bit of food, every hammer used, every worker turn and...well...every turn.

I'm on turn 45 now, here's my progress. Luckily I have copper nearby but I'm not sure which tile to settle on. Any other general thoughts would also be great. I did turn off research twice because I was running out of gold. I also chopped 3 forests in the capital, but I wasn't sure if that was a good move or not. Should I save the rest of them for pyramids?

Not sure how you manage tiles between cities. things look ok but I might have grown to at least size 3 in Kyoto on a warrior. Chops into settler was the right thing. Settler 2 has decent timing here.

Switch to slavery when the settler pops. Often good to make that switch (when not Spiritual), when a settler is moving...often it is the first one but here BW was not in yet.

Ofc, there has been some turns that have passed so I don't see everything but appears you are managing the 0%/100% idea well here. I'm pleased to see that you are finishing POT at 100% with just about the right amount of gold in the bank.

******I'd pose one question to you here: Can you see the issue with the roads between the cow and Osaka? Why is that wrong? What would have been better?*****************

City 2 obviously should go between the corn an copper. Obviously this gives you access to the copper but there is another nice thing here.. it gives access to corn immediately...no need for monument now. Something to think about when settling cities. Corn/Copper spot worked out well here.

I'd go to Writing after POT.... check leaders and their worst enemies...OB with anyone who is not a WE of someone else and possibly some that are but we can assess that later. You will get a feel for this diplo stuff. Generally the ideal thing is to OB with everyone...that is what you want. But you get someone like Brennus who is often hated a lot and it makes that tougher.

After Writing go Myst>Masonry>Maths. Whip a Monument in Osaka cause we want that city to pop borders for more forests. Osaka will build Mids with at least 5 Maths chops. Do not chop the forests around Osaka for now

Two related notes here:

1) Never whip anything on the turn 0 of a build (or in other words without at least 1 hammer invested) as the whip has a penalty. Rare case would be an emergency whip. (we will go into whipping more later)

3) Forests are 20H pre-Maths and 30H with Maths. Forests in cultural borders and BFC are worth more than outside...this is why I want Osaka to pop borders

 

[lymond]

Just a side note that I often proofread a post or edit/amend/append after I post it, so you may want to reread things or be cognizant of it. I tend to write a lot..ha

 

[lymond]

Wait ..why are your warriors all over the place...I think missed my points on the previous turnset.

Yep...Kyoto really should be size 3 or 4...did not realize you had built a couple more warriors and I think you gave Osaka the cows.

Please reread post #26

 

[Hot_Dawg]

A lot of helpful information here lymond, I'll try to address as much as possible lol. I'll admit I'm not totally new to the concept of 0% or 100% research. I just never really understood if there was a ratio I should be using between science and espionage, but now I know there isn't. I do find what you said about OB interesting though, because I never really considered who doesn't like who when I agree to them. I just always thought you should agree to all of them so you can scout their lands. But based on this advice, I would only have OB with shaka and mansa, assuming anything doesn't change. One thing I'm wondering though, since I have 3 founders of religion here, what do I do if they all end up hating each other?

As for Kyoto, I was thinking of building a granary in 2 turns after I get pottery, that way it could grow to size 3 that way? I'm glad you brought up whipping though, because I'm not really sure how to do it correctly. There's basically only 2 situations where I've whipped in the past. Either I need the unit asap, or I feel like whatever I'm building is gonna take way too many turns(as in 15+ or whatever). It's definitely a huge goal of mine to learn how to whip more effectively.

As far as the warriors, I figured I would reveal as much of the map as possible. My line of thinking was mark a BFC using Alt+X, not really sure what that's called, and then mark a bunch of BFC around the first one and circle around until everything is revealed. Not really related to your question but I figured I'd bring it up and get your thoughts. I included a pic in the spoiler. But also I'm not really sure what else to do with the warriors. I didn't want them to just sit around in my cities. By the way Osaka indeed does have the cows.

Also if you want, I could play 10 turns instead of 15. I wasn't sure if I was maybe playing too many turns or not.

And to answer your question, I think because the desert tile is basically dead weight? Meaning I can't build anything on that besides a fort. As for what would've been better I'm not too sure. I wanna say a road through the plain hill would've been more ideal. What happen is I used the route to mode from the mine to Osaka, so I didn't really consider if that path was worthwhile or not.

One last thing, I really do appreciate all the help. Don't worry if it's a lot of info, there's no real rush. I'm taking my time with this game so I can learn as much as possible.

Spoiler :

[\SPOILER]

 

[sampsa]

For me, the next two city spots are quite clear. Hint: they both have food on the first ring (hugely important!). More hints in spoiler.

Spoiler :

The corn is unclaimed and you don't have a way to pop borders. Another spot claims two -resources and some extras.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

It might be hard to see in my screenshot. So the first would be what lymond suggested, but I'm going to guess the second is on top of this grasshill. That gives me 2 food sources I don't have yet. Unless maybe I should settle on top of the wine? Or am I off completely?

Spoiler :

[\SPOILER]

I'm gonna play these turns in a few minutes, I'll update on turn 60 or maybe turn 55.

 

[sampsa]

I'd put the corn-copper 1N for fresh water and also the lake tiles are not useless. The western city you suggest is infested with jungle and not of much use pre-IW. I was thinking about the pigs-fish in the south, which is the best site you have and by quite a big margin IMO.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

So I'm on turn 56, not gonna lie I feel like I made some crappy moves here. Sadly sampsa I didn't see your reply until just now, but if you guys want I can replay these last 10 moves. I could worker-steal from Shaka, you guys think that would be a good idea? We have OB right now and I feel like he'll turn on me down the road anyway, but if it's a bad move I won't do it. Overall though what do you guys think? Another thing I'm wondering, how important are those civ ranking lists? I took a screenshot in case you guys wanted to see it, and so we're on the same page for what I'm referring too. Again, if you guys want I can replay or go from here.

Spoiler :

[\SPOILER]

 

[Hot_Dawg]

And sampsa, that is a good point. That does seem like a good spot. Do you think I should go for the horse and fish at some point?

 

[sampsa]

Do you think I should go for the horse and fish at some point?

Yes, but later. Try first to think why that city is not very good, then check the spoiler.

Spoiler :

Both resources are 2nd ring, thus you need a border pop to make anything out of that city.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I see, before checking the spoiler, and I'll admit I didn't realize this until now, but both of those resources would need iron working to cut down the jungle. It does make way more sense to go after the pig and fish instead.

Also one thing I forgot to mention, but I forgot to convert to slavery when my settler was on the move. So that's why I didn't convert until turn 54. It's another bad habit I have when it comes to this game. Sometimes I forget to do whatever it was I was planning to do.

 

[sampsa]

Looked at the save. Two things that you should try to correct:

Worker management. Right now you are doing pretty random things like building unnecessary roads. You should 1.improve food! 2.chop! everything else is secondary. Right now only one of your three workers is doing the right thing. You should have used at least two workers to improve corn, maybe even all three (if two, then the 3rd one should chop).

Unit management. Your warriors are running way too far revealing tiles that are insignificant for your game. Their duty is to protect the land from barbarians and to keep the cities happy. Scouting far away is just a distraction.

 

[sampsa]

Also one thing I forgot to mention, but I forget to convert to slavery when my settler was on the move. So that's why I didn't convert until turn 54. It's another bad habit I have when it comes to this game. Sometimes I forget to do whatever it was I was planning to do.

I think even the more experienced players are not immune to forgetting to do things. I tend to put a note on the map (Alt+S) saying something like "SWITCH TO SLAVERY!!" so that I don't forget it. I also always put down a note saying what my starting techs and traits are, so that I have them in mind all the time when I look at the map thinking how the early game will shape up.

Also, Alt+M sets a remainder that is shown n turns later. So when you see that you'll reach BW in 8 turns, you can set up a remainder in 8 turns telling you to switch to slavery.