GOTM 06 second spoiler - everything else!

CivGeneral said:
I have no clue on what mistakes I have made, then again I am still trying to learn how to win at Noble

I had opportunity to go back and replay it a few times, from a few different critical points, and fared much better once I applied a more logical set of decisions.

I still can't figure out how people are beating it in the middle ages, but I'm going to take some ideas I discovered and use them in some other games and I'll see if I get better.

Also: I noticed a distinct difference in the patched version. More competitive AI, that's for sure. They launched some interesting, and effective, naval attacks against me that caught me unprepared.
 
As I predict in my first spoiler, I scored around 30K, Diplo in 1904.
I was going for domination (I don't like conquest, is not in the spirit of CIVILISATION - imo), and I was less than 2% far, but UN was almost completed and I was over 67% pop, so I choose diplo.

Founded 1 W, scout, barracks, worker, archer -
I was lucky in the early game, huts gave me: some money, a scout and 6 techs (archery, mining, writing, priesthood, BW and masonry - maybe AH, can't remember) :cool:
I went for Stonehenge, since also if it's not so important for my strategy it was the first thing build in my 2nd city.
From Oracle i choose metal casting, 'cause i already discovered Hinduism, but never convert (jump to free religion).

Good techs trading, never with Toku, maybe 1 or 2 with Lizzie, Qin and Alex and a lot with Mansa

My first target was Bismarck, and when he completes Pyramids was only a matter of time.
I send a mixed stack of Keshiks, catapults, axes, swords and spears (he get ivory). Odds was good for 3 cities, less for Berlin. He founded a city near the spices, so just wait this reaches level 2, conquered, made peace, and left with only one city in the north-west jungle, and wiped with Keshiks right after the 10 turns.

In the meantime every civ has longbows, so I went for Liberism, free tech Nationalism, and MT was very close.

I was preparing my cavalry for attack Japan, first GA triggered by TajMahal, when Qin decided to suicide, declaring to me.

My only border city was weakly defended, but a dozen cavalries was in the neightborhood, so all the attackers was destroyed without losses, and china was to 2 cities in few turns (wiped after Japan war)

In the meantime a continue to pump out cavalry, preparing to attack Toku, since Alex has Rifling (damn).

Peace with Qin, declared to Toku, wiped out in few turns (apart the city in the island) and go for industralism.

Finish the job with Japan with marines, useful also for a greek city in the small desert island.

Alex declared to Lizzie, and when I was ready to attack with Tanks and bombers, she asked me to join her, so i wiped Alex in 6 turns or some.

Pretty lucky with GL, an engineer helped to Lady Liberty, I suppose Mansa was beated for 2 turns and all my scientist were used for techs (philosophy the first one), my first GP for Kashi, a GA for Music.

No much more to say, but a so large map would be nice in EPIC speed, a Keshik built in Karakorum can arrive in Berlin in the time needed to discover a tech.
 
Spaceship in 1975
This my first Gotm. indeed I played bad. I have allowed much mistakes.
I it is necessary was concentrate on building of the rocket. But I have spent much power on conquest.
The Result could be better.
 
drkodos said:
I had opportunity to go back and replay it a few times, from a few different critical points, and fared much better once I applied a more logical set of decisions.

I still can't figure out how people are beating it in the middle ages, but I'm going to take some ideas I discovered and use them in some other games and I'll see if I get better.

Also: I noticed a distinct difference in the patched version. More competitive AI, that's for sure. They launched some interesting, and effective, naval attacks against me that caught me unprepared.

My biggest issue is waiting too long to decide on what victory I'm going for, and I usually end up halfway to every condition when someone else wins. Also, by the time I realised I probably couldn't win by culture, it was too late to catch up in tech (I was running 10% science/80% culture for about 50 turns) so that pretty much ended it there. China's victory was surprising, though, since all of the messages I was getting were with Mansa building parts.
 
Contunued from 1st spoiler:

I go with my plan and build Keshiks and some Catapults for the tougher cities (backed up with a few macemen and swordsmen). His cities are poorly defended, and I let him declare peace after I take three cities including Berlin, I need some time to reorginize so let him have peace for a tech. It is 1030AD and I'm in second scorewise behind China. When I attack cities with Keshiks I try to have a mix of offensive and mobile units. The mobile units attack first, half of them die but half manage to withdraw. They do enough damage that the offensive units can now finish off the defenders.

By 1280 I am finished with my second German war, I left him one small city in the jungle again for favorable (to me) peace terms. I am in first place now. China is second and will have to be next to go.

I build up a stack of Keshiks and catapults to go after him but realize that the time of the Keshik is over. With a good cash reserve (at the cost of some tech research), I upgrade all the Keshiks to Knights and attack. The first city falls easily, but at the capital (built on a hill) I am rudely suprised. He has Grenadiers and Cannon. My numbers aren't enough to over come his tech, but luckily he is aggreable to an even peace. At least I did gain one city. It is 1605.

I figure I'm going to need Calvary to take the capital, so I concentrate on research and building an attack stack. As soon as I have the tech, I upgrade all my Knights to Calvary and with still only catapults to reduce the city defenses I invade. Even though I am behind tech wise, my numbers make the difference and his capital falls, which takes most of his power. Eventually China falls except for one city. But in the two peace treaty talks I miss click and fail to get any tech in trade. Poor Germany suicides and declares war, his one city falls quickly. It is now 1826 and my main attack stacks are Calvary/Cannon.

Japan, second in score has to be my next target. When he declares war against Mali, I go after him with Riflemen now supporting my stacks. The first war is short, I raze 6 of his cites, but none of his core, he destroys Mali. During the peace I start switching over to Infantry to attack his core cities.

Shortly after I invade Japan, England asks for help against Greece. I'm not really ready on that front but agree. I'm hoping that he will attack my cities and my tech advantage will just result in large losses for him. It goes almost as planned, I lose one city but he takes large losses. Japan in the mean time is slowly losing his core cities. I am now starting to make tanks sending them to both fronts. I regain my lost city, and then manage to take Athens with tanks only. I sue for peace with both Civs, I need a bit of time to organize things on both fronts and to send Artillery forward. It is 1932, I am almost double Elizabeths score but am determined to get a Domination victory.

My final war goes quickly, I roll over Japan, Greece and the one city I left China. It is now just me and England but I am a few percentage points short of the land area needed for victory. I switch over to full culture, found a few cities in the ruins of my first war with Japan, and my borders expand enough to get the victory in 1954.

I figure I was just too unfocused at the start. If I was going for conquest, I probably should have attacked Germany much earlier. I think I was too worried about my financial situation. I was not a fan of normal speed games, but this was fun. I learned a bit and i think my next GOTM will go smoother. Next time I will also try to save more often and try to have some pictures.
 
ainwood said:

GOTM 06 Second Spoiler



For this spoiler, you must have completed and submitted your game.

Quick new guy question... If we don't intend to submit a game, we're okay, right?

I went for a space race and had Mansa win a diplo on me three turns before the end. (I wouldn't have gotten the engine done anyway, but....)

I just don't want to break any rules because this is fun. :cool:
 
Spoilers are generally of interest to players who want to comapre their submitted games, but there's no reason why you shouldn't join in the fun having reached the end of the game.

If you completed the game within the rules there's no reason NOT to submit, though. It costs a moment to complete a few fields in a form, and you start to accumulate a few global ranking points.
 
BLubmuz said:
As I predict in my first spoiler, I scored around 30K, Diplo in 1904.
I was going for domination (I don't like conquest, is not in the spirit of CIVILISATION - imo), and I was less than 2% far, but UN was almost completed and I was over 67% pop, so I choose diplo.

:king: :cool: :goodjob:



BLubmuz said:
I was lucky in the early game, huts gave me: some money, a scout and 6 techs (archery, mining, writing, priesthood, BW and masonry - maybe AH, .......


:goodjob:


Not too insignificant. The huts I popped gave me experience (3x) , maps (3x), and two gold strikes (80 & 41).


Maps! :mad: Thanks a lot. :rolleyes:

images


Thanks a lot for nothing!




Do huts have different yields (per player/ per load file) in the game?

Or is it just a tactical matter of being a better scout and getting to more huts? :sad:
 
Everyone starts with the same, identical start file.

Huts are subject to random number generator (RNG) (mis)behaviour, so changes in play change what you get ... randomly. The more huts you open the more goodies you get, but *what* you get is down to chance.
 
AlanH said:
Spoilers are generally of interest to players who want to comapre their submitted games, but there's no reason why you shouldn't join in the fun having reached the end of the game.

If you completed the game within the rules there's no reason NOT to submit, though. It costs a moment to complete a few fields in a form, and you start to accumulate a few global ranking points.

Thanks, I submitted what I had as "retired from game", since I didn't save after the game. Next month I'll make sure I save it. Sorry 'bout that... :blush:
 
AlanH said:
Everyone starts with the same, identical start file.

Huts are subject to random number generator (RNG) (mis)behaviour, so changes in play change what you get ... randomly. The more huts you open the more goodies you get, but *what* you get is down to chance.

Let me see if I understand you:


An individual hut could yield differently for different players because they got to hut itslef by differing means (paths/turns/move orders et.al.). If two players both pop the same hut on the same move (let's say turn one) with everything else the same, they would get same results. Anything else (any different moves) and a random element factors in.



A follow up question, if I may:

Does getting a tech from a hut have anything to do with a component other than one (mis)fortunes?


And a comment: (maybe a gripe? :p )

Wouldn't it be more competively balanced if the hut yield were more balanced? Meaning, a certain huts yields X, regardless of path traveled to get it? Not looking to carp, but it seems that fate can be strongly determined by a few fortuitous hut pops that only certain players are able to take advantage. Seems rather unbalanced and not a good test of playing styles on a level playing field, if so. :cry: :cry: Carp over. :D
 
Civ is, and always has been, a game of a mixture of skill and chance. That's the way it was designed by Firaxis, and who are we to tell them their incredibly successful franchise is built on false premises. If you want a totally predictable game then Civ is always going to frustrate you. It has a random number generator embedded in it that affects AI decisions, battle outcomes, barb activity ... and goodie hut contents. The better players are able to deal with bad fortune by playing to overcome the problems, and with good fortune by recognising and exploiting opportunities.

Real life is somewhat similar. Epithets like "You create your own luck" and "Fortune favours the brave" are expressions of a reality, that some people are better at spotting and benefiting from the good things that happen, and surviving the knocks. They "... meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same."

Does getting a tech from a hut have anything to do with a component other than one (mis)fortunes?
In Civ3 there are known odds on getting different hut results, and these *do* depend on factors such as Civ traits, and whether you are building, or have built, a settler. As I don't play Civ4 I don't know the equivalent data for this game. Maybe someone else can assist, or a search in the Strategy Articles may turn up equivalent data.
 
AlanH said:
Civ is, and always has been, a game of a mixture of skill and chance. That's the way it was designed by Firaxis, and who are we to tell them their incredibly successful franchise is built on false premises. If you want a totally predictable game then Civ is always going to frustrate you. It has a random number generator embedded in it that affects AI decisions, battle outcomes, barb activity ... and goodie hut contents. The better players are able to deal with bad fortune by playing to overcome the problems, and with good fortune by recognising and exploiting opportunities.

Real life is somewhat similar. Epithets like "You create your own luck" and "Fortune favours the brave" are expressions of a reality, that some people are better at spotting and benefiting from the good things that happen, and surviving the knocks. They "... meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same."

In Civ3 there are known odds on getting different hut results, and these *do* depend on factors such as Civ traits, and whether you are building, or have built, a settler. As I don't play Civ4 I don't know the equivalent data for this game. Maybe someone else can assist, or a search in the Strategy Articles may turn up equivalent data.


No doubt.

Real life tends to be less fair, I have found. Less forgiving as well as far as being able to over come a few wrong moves.....:cry: :sad:


I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers. I enjoyed the game immensely :blush: I was only looking to rationalize my poor performance and find a suitable scape goat! :lol:

Also trying to replay it a few times to see if I can implement some of the strategies and/or tactics people found succesful. If there was a way to make better hut pops, I didn't want to be left out of the secret! :rolleyes: :cool:
 
drkodos said:
I was only looking to rationalize my poor performance and find a suitable scape goat! :lol:
Yup! We all find the RNG (random number generator) a useful scapegoat from time to time when looking for excuses. ;)
 
zerza said:
Am I the only one that played Challenger? :P

LOL! I played challenger in GOTM5 and got burned by it (challenger was severely set back in that GOTM with no scout) and I realized how much lower a score I probably got because of playing challenger in that one with no compensatory benefits other than you get your score in a different colour when the results are published (and the game wasn't any more fun to play). So I resolved to play contender henceforth ;)
 
OK - space race victory in - ummm - 2008. Final score: 6919. I decided from the start that I was going for the space race - I know that runs right against the Kublai Khan's traits but I felt like it ;) That meant I was going for a strategy of high science throughout, and only limited warfare - enough to make sure I was slightly bigger and better than any one other civ.

In the event I won, but IMO this one of the my most pathetic Civ attempts I've ever played - due to a mixture I think of me being careless because of playing at Noble level (I normally play at Monarch) and me experimenting with some new strategies, some of which it turned out didn't work too well. I got a 2008 victory, but I'm sure on noble I should've won a space race a lot earlier than 2000ish. And I wasn't that far ahead of Mansa Musa either, who started spaceship building at the same time as me.

Though having said all that, after winning I read through some of the other write-ups and realize that the map probably was harder than typical noble: Financial opponents, long distance from other civs, and lack of resources, especially happiness resources, nearby.

Final situation as figure:



Game Summary:
In keeping with the plan of high science, I beelined for pottery first to start getting cottages. Then planned to find out where the horses/copper/iron are, then try to found Confucianism, picking up the hanging gardens and great library on the way (and I did pull those off).

Because of the low difficulty level I wasn't expecting a rapid land-grab, so I experimented with not building any settlers initially: Instead I waited until Karakorum was close to its happiness limit. The advantage was that by then I was producing a lot of gold - so my research got off to an excellent start, and building a settler was very quick. Not only that but it meant I knew where the horses, iron and copper were before I founded my second city, so I could make very intelligent city placement choices. Doing it that way would never have worked on a high level or with other civs close by but was doable here. Not sure I'd do it again though - it really slowed down my growth. On balance I think it hurt more than helped in the long run.

I slowly populated the starting land area. I lost control of the pinch point - there was a barb city there which Bismark took just before I could get it. Since by then I was spreading Confucianism through German lands and he was becoming my friend, I decided not to take it back, but to keep him as a friend, and keep open borders so I could still use the pinch point, and conquer someone else beyond. In the end I took out the Japanese - one war with my cavalry that reduced him to 3 cities, then a later war in the 19th/20th century to eradicate him.

The Good Things

The Victory
The plus side is this made for a very exciting finish, with me and Mansa starting spaceship production about the same time - so I was building spaceship parts at the same time as using my spies to keep an eye that Mansa really was falling behind (he was - he just didn't have the production-geared cities that I had to build quickly), and I was simultaneously building enough military to keep open the option of declaring war on him, if it looked like there was any serious danger he'd win.

Conquering Japan
I have to say that conquering Japan worked well. The final map has to be a text-book example of using the forbidden palace: My civ divided into two big regions, both not too hard to defend, and with the 2nd one 'serviced' by the forbidden palace. So you have a big civ but economically quite viable:

Cavalry
Another thing that went well was a strategy I'm starting to use quite a bit: Beeline for liberalism, pick up nationalism as your free tech, use that to get cavalry long before anyone else, and then do your big round of conquering with the cavalry. It worked a charm - Japan melted before my cavalry/catapult combination. An odd side-effect was not only that I never built a single keshik, but because I was mostly using mounted units, I pretty much completely threw away the advantage from the Kublai's aggressive trait. But it worked. Once I had Japan I focused on building my economy, keeping enough defence to defend myself (against the Chinese and Greeks, who never liked me and declared war a few times, though they were too far away to actually do much).

The medic scout
You know the strategy of using explorers as medics - well I very successfully used a nice twist. During early exploring, one of my two scouts managed to get promoted enough that I could give him Medic 1. And - you guessed it, he travelled with my cavalry into battle, always well guarded, but always right where the most intensive battles were being fought. He hugely speeded up the war. And he's the first ever scout I've had to still be alive at the end of the game, in the 21st century. I think he deserves a medal. Here's a picture of him basking on the coast in his post-spaceship retirement.



Culture
I'm really starting to appreciate the power of culture, not only with a culture bomb, but with slow building up - getting every religion you can into a city on a border and building monasteries and academies like there's no tomorrow. It's slow but works wonders. Look at Nagasaki a while after I captured it from Tokugawa: It's very hemmed in by the established city of Dortmund



And now years later.



I did actually use a great artist in Nagasaki, which I think is why Dortmund eventually flipped to me, but I'd already captured most of the land between Dortmund and Nagasaki from culture buildings alone before the great artist was born. Matsuyama (captured by Germans from Tokugawa) stayed German to the end, but look in that last screenshot how many units Bismark had to keep in it to stop it flipping (The list of units is the ones in Matsuyama), and look at its size: Confined by high-culture cities all around to desert - despite reaching an 80% culture defence bonus, it ended up still at size 1.

A lesson in how to keep friendly civs under control without going to war. Can't build your whole strategy around it but very useful occasionally!


Amphibious Promotion

Oh, and one other thing I quite enjoyed: This game saw my first ever serious use of the amphibious promotion. It never seemed appropriate before but this map shows why I used it now: Japan's last city, Shimonoseki.



China is furious/annoyed with me so I've no chance of getting open borders with them. With that mountain there, there's no way to take Shimonoseki without either declaring war on China or attacking direct from the sea. Literally, after I'd taken every other Japanese city, I was building a transport and hunting through all my units to try and find some artillery and riflemen that I could give a quick amphibious promotion to before sending them off to the island. It worked! (I didn't even want the city, I just wanted Tokugawa completely vanquished to quell my restless Japanese 'we long to join our motherland' citizens)

What went wrong? Well…

Chopping
This was my first serious game with the 1.61 patch I wasn't too sure how best to adapt to the new lower forest chop yields - I ended up not doing any chopping initially - thought I'd wait for mathematics, then when I had mathematics, there wasn't anything I needed urgently so I still didn't chop. My first forest got chopped in order to help build the Taj Mahal! Not chopping did have benefits - it meant when I was ready to build the spaceship, it was relatively easy to select several cities as high-production ones and hence get the ship built quite quickly, along with the Space Elevator and the Internet. But it really hurt my early expansion. With hindsight I probably should've chopped a bit in the early game. (If nothing else, chopping would've stopped me losing the pyramids by 2 turns).

Sheer carelessness/laziness
Things like leaving workers on long go-to instructions in wartime (they walked right into the enemy), and on one occasion, giving an unescorted settler a 10-ish-square go-to instruction. Turned out there was a barb city on the spot I told him to go to. He just walked straight into the city and - umm - died inside it. Oh and forgetting to regularly check the relations between the AI civs (hence not noticing that the Greeks I was at war with had got an open border agreement with the Germans and hence would be able to turn up out of the blue along the Mongol-German border). Oooh that gave me a scare as well as a razed city! (It was also the main reason why I abandoned my first Japanese war when Japan still had 3 cities left).

Cottage-spamming
Not tried cottage-spamming from the beginning much before, and thought I'd try it this time. I think I overdid it - really helped with science early on, but the lack of farms meant my cities grew too slowly and that slowed me down in the mid game.

No Micromanagement
I really got too lazy with that, just letting cities manage themselves and not checking up on them for long periods. I think that hurt my game almost more than anything else. For example, at times I think I must've had cities for hundreds of years failing to grow because I hadn't noticed they needed a few more farms or I'd left them on emphasize production when there was nothing urgent to produce.

Religious Coordination
Normally I complain about wonders giving me too many great prophets. This time I founded Confucianism and Christianity but didn't build any of the great-prophet-generating wonders. The result was two religions spreading nicely but I couldn't benefit financially coz I couldn't build either of the shrines! I initially didn't have any cities with enough pop surplus to comfortably put priests to work in, picked one anyway, but then the two priests in it couldn't keep up with the (non-prophet) GPPs from the city that did have most of my wonders in. Finally got the Confucian shrine-thingy sometime in the 1000AD's I think, and - wait for it - built the Church of the Nativity in - sometime in the 1950s if I recall correctly.

Diplomacy
Must remember to use the trick of having AI's declare war on each other appropriately. My big successful war was with Tokugawa. Obedient to best practice, I bribed Bismarck to join in so I could get by with fewer troops. Why did I do that? I had cavalry, Tokugawa had horse archers (Well at the end I think he built one knight before I removed his supply of horses). I pretty much sliced through him, scarcely losing a single unit, and with only one city supplying all my military needs too! I basically ran a peace-time economy throughout the war! I soon had to bribe Bismarck again to make peace with Tokugawa (at quite a heavy price too, pretty much halved my tech lead over him), just so Bismarck wouldn't capture any cities and so deprive me of the certainty of taking them.

Summary

All in all a good game. Although I wasn't happy with how I played, it meant I could fit it in over a weekend. I enjoyed it, and the map was a slightly unusual challenge. Thanks Ainwood again! (and AlanH)
 
AlanH said:
Real life is somewhat similar. Epithets like "You create your own luck" and "Fortune favours the brave" are expressions of a reality, that some people are better at spotting and benefiting from the good things that happen, and surviving the knocks. They "... meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same."

There is a flip side to this. And that is to do with the exponential influence of early results - in a GOTM such as GOTM5 (which I didn't put an entry into just because I forgot to submit the dang file! oops! :blush: ) I imagine it must be very tempting for some people who didn't pop any early settlers [and who find their GOTM placing important] to start over from a copy of the original save file they first downloaded - because they would have known from turn 1 that most of the highscorers will have popped their settlers rather than built them. In GOTM4, the same could be said for whether you got Poly first, and whether the warrior survived the first attempt at worker-stealing.

Of course I am not accusing anyone of actually having done this - but I imagine we're all fans of improving Civ4's support for competitive single-player games. Which I guess is why this post is a long preamble to a suggested fix...

A suggested fix (if any Firaxians are reading): For competitive single player games, include an option to have separate RNG seeds for battles, huts, and AI decisions (perhaps even per-player). That would give a lot less freedom to re-order the rolls of the dice, wouldn't otherwise affect gameplay, and is a fairly simple code-change (the number of places where the RNG is called is probably reasonably small and easily found).

---
*(It's also possible that the Civ4 exe has a way of identifying played games, say by MD5 sum, and recording "I've seen this game start before" in the save file - but I'm not aware of it doing so)
 
Hmm.

I usually play jack of all trades, master of none. This was also the case.
At start I took my peninsula along with the choke point. No early wars. By 500 AD I had 9 cities with no sparkling borders though I had contact with all other civs. At that point my research was 70% thanks to cottage spamming and pyramids.

My initial plan was to go culturally, so my three culture cities were well rounded... then I had so much fun messing with other civs diplomaticly I decided to go on a space race while all the other civs fight each other endlesly... I made China (second best the entire game, HUGE military) dependant on me controling luxury and health resources. Germany loved me for all those techs i gived to them. :cool:

China was warring all the time with Japan and Mali, while Germany did the same with Greece and England. Imagine... China has closed borders with Alex and Vicky, so the have to run all over the globe to conquer, whilst Bismarck passes only trough thin strip of the Chinese territory. :lol:

I took my time on building my huge empire until tanks showed up. At that time my research is going at 90%, all cities are focused on hammers...In less then 15 turns Japan is no more, after that Mali in 13 turns. At that point I have 45% of land, 50% of population, I need 5k culture in my third culture city, I am building final 2 spaceship parts, all of diplo resolutions have been passed, Alex and Vicky are almost dead (three cities each) and I am friendly with Mao and Bismark. So I pressed diplo win. Bismark votes for me... voila. :king:
 
I just feel lucky that I discovered Judaism and Islam in my game. I was aiming to get all three of the Abrahamic religions though someone got to theology before I did :mad:.
 
My game came down to a very close space race... Beat Mansa Musa by one turn. My mistake was I playede too peaceful while Musa conquered Greek. I also sned my spies to stop England from winning the space race but didn't realize Musa was so close until I spend my cash on England.
 
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