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Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Ali Ardavan, May 24, 2016.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    I traded for Democracy in +700 and could have switched as early as +780 (next oedo year). Without magnetism, without Bach, and with a few units wandering around it may not have been a great idea but the main reason I put it off is I want to use the inevitable one turn anarchy to attack Madrid (home of Colossus and Copernicus and next door to home of Magellan). I do not have an overwhelming force and the mission may fail. Will see if the gamble pays off.
  2. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    500 AD: (Cont) Hut: 50g. Hut: 25g. And I was sure that I’d get AT’s for both!

    540 AD: Bokhara Reborn Cope’s, 42 beakers.
    Interturn: Celts develop University.

    560 AD: Navigation > Medicine. Trade Navigation to the Celts for University… wait wtf did I just do? Now Mag’s is contested! In a time where I would have preferred to build up offshore trade… that was hella brainless.

    600 AD: Hut: 50g.

    Interturn: Celts start Magellan’s. Yep, I’m a dumbass.

    640 AD: T8L0S2 for a few turns.
    Interturn: Zulu gov’t overthrown. TYVM!

    680 AD: Zulu gov’t changed to Monarchy. Pls… Hut: 50g.

    700 AD; Celtic gov’t changed to Republic. That’s good. First trade route: 40g, undemanded. (Was for the arrows in Bokhara.) T2L0S8.
    Interturn: Zulus almost done with KRC. In which city is THAT going to end up?

    720 AD: Medicine > Chemistry. Next objective, Explosives. Quinsay silver (d) to Madrid: 155g. Not super much..
    Interturn: Celts almost done with Magellan’s. BS. Intombe builds KRC… That bad start is snowballing really bad because I do not have the resources to compete for lower-priority wonders! (Postgame edit: "Bad start")

    740 AD: Fortunately I have enough spare cash laying around that I’m able to rush-steal the wonder.

    760 AD: Karakorum Magellan’s. Trade Philosophy to Germans for BB.

    780 AD: I think that after Explosives (edit: maybe Sanitation?), I will raise taxes to maximum to rush Aqueducts/Temples on mainland and celebrate there. Only to size 12 tho. Afterwards, after Democracy, celebrate to full. I actually need to this game, trade can’t be relied on.

    800 AD: Shakes in 4 turns in Bokhara Reborn.

    820 AD: Chemistry > Gunpowder. 92, 37. SSC up to 74 beakers. Shakes in 3 turns. Can’t celebrate the city on low LUXES, no marketplace.

    840 AD: Really looks like I’ll have to disband the Spanish outpost sooner or later. That civilization isn’t in the game at all.

    860 AD: Foreign delivery for 92g. Wow, disappointing. Feels so weird to be playing “normal” Civ for a change, instead of the super-fast-paced meta that CFC/Apolyton has created.

    880 AD: BOKHARA REBORN SHAKES. Hut: 50g.

    900 AD: Gunpowder > Explosives. Hut: 50g. Rush Uni in Bokhara Reborn.

    920 AD: Foreign van: 156g. Hut: AT of Cannae! (20/20) Will need to disband the city. Settler started.

    940 AD: Van: 94g.

    980 AD; Explosives > Sanitation. 44g

    1000 AD: Nothing of note.

    STATUS AT 1000 AD: (Beginning of 151th turn)
    Population: 3,880.000 Cities: 20/20 Government: Republic Total advances: 38 (researching Sanitation)
    Gold: 377 T2L0S8 Income/Cost per turn: 50 income, 22 cost. Production: 131MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: HG, Mikes, Bach’s and MPE. Cope’s, Shakes, Leo’s, Mag’s. (8/15)
    Foreign relations: Peace+maps with everyone. Americans killed by Barbs.
    NOTE: Don’t grow the Spanish colony. It can disband eventually.

    One thing that I noticed with Ali's log is that he was able to celebrate his mainland at 40% without JS Bach's. Is that... even possible? Did you celebrate to full or only to size 12? In my game, it's not clear when I celebrated, might have forgot to write it down, I think it was around 1100ADish.
  3. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

    Feb 6, 2007
    Log 2000 to 1 ad

    Can't remember if I said this before but the plan was to have 4 cities close to capital just producing vans for wonders, these would be later disbanded. Have to say, it doesn't appear to have worked.

    2000 Bokara Settler,Karakorum Settler (to build at possible 3 special south)

    @2000 4 cities, 7 techs, researching currency, 2 settlers & 2 warriors

    1900 Nishapur settler
    1800 Kashgar [5] 49,63
    1550 Currency -> Maps, hut = 50g
    1500 Hut = Mapmaking
    1450 Start Trade
    1300 Meet Celts - Give maps, peace, give monarchy, horse, currency, share maps, no alliance
    1250 Germs start Pyr, Tabriz [6] 55,65
    1200 Aleppo [7] 46,48
    1100 Trade -> Writing

    @ 1000 7 cities, 1o techs, researching Writing
    Govt Monarchy, tsl 3/7/0, 6 warriors 1 trireme

    925 Hut = Mysticism
    825 1st van built
    800 Greeks start Colossus ... 3 more vans built -- Still go for MPE first
    775 MPE built
    Zulus 6 techs - have warrior
    Celts 10 have Masonry
    Germans (icy) 8 Writing, Pottery Masonry
    Spanish 9 Maths, Masonry
    Amercians 8 Masonry, Pottery, Seafaring, Writing
    Greeks only 3 techs
    .Americans are cordial so try them first - Swap Trade, Monarchy, Mysticism, Currency for Writing, Seafaring, Pottery, Masonry - Gave The wheel, swap maps, no alliance (wanted to declare war on celts)
    .Zulu - Horse for warrior code, give bronze , share maps
    .Germans - Give trade, peace, give Monarchy, Myst, seafaring, share maps
    .Spanish - Swap Maps for Maths, give warrior code, give Mysticism share maps. Doesn't look like trireme will get to Spain (or Zulus for that matter)
    Power is Mighty so Greeks are key civ - 27 turns before contact -
    Greeks - Give maps & wheel, check map, give all techs , science now 20
    Rearrange science to 22

    750 Celts start pyramids, start researching Astro
    725 Hut = archer
    700 Celts approach ask to attack Americans, no, give writing, Tabriz builds trireme
    power now supreme - tech is 27 turns
    675 Germans nearly finished Pyramids, Kashgar builds beads caravan
    650 Leipzig builds pyramids, Celts change to Colossus, hut = nomads at 38,54
    power now strong, give americans 5 techs, science now 23
    approach spain, give ? tech, alliance no gift
    approach greeks no alliance
    625 Celts develop construction, swap for warrior code, give trade
    550 Aleppo settler, bokara settler, Kabul [8] at 61,39
    noticed can get across to spain

    @525 bc
    8 cities, 18 techs, research astro
    2 settlers, 7 warriors, 1 archer, 2 triremes

    500 Zulu start colossus, germans construction, Ormux [9] 50,58, Basra [10] 47,45,. Maximise science to 17 turns as nearly discovered astro and van waiting at Kells / Cardiff
    450 Zulus Iron, Spanish Construction, Karak produces van, hut = legion
    425 Americans ask to declare war on celts, refuse. Greeks nearly finished colossus, Astro -> Literacy, Tabriz produces van. Van Kashgar to Carmathen (d) 52g, rearrange science to 20 turns
    400 Greeks finish colossus, celts change to lighthouse, zulus abandon
    375 hut = nomads 58,60
    350 disband legion into Kabul for settler
    325 Celts nearly finished lighthouse, Kabul settler to irrigate forest
    300 Celts build lighthouse, Celts approach ask to declare war on americans, refuse, give seafaring
    spanish, give 4 techs incl astro (to give them monarchy as boat and vans heading their way) get 50g gift from them
    250 Germans start HG
    225 Germans code of laws
    200 Spain starts HG, spain now monarchy, hut = navigation
    power now inadequate, try to give germans techs but they only want navigation or astro
    175 Zulus start Oracle
    150 Americans learn astro (I've got 2 vans waiting, 2 nearly done and 2 just started for coppernicus), Caraval and 2 vans set off for Zulu / greeks
    zulus swap iron working for writing, alliance no gift, forgot to give them monarchy!
    100 Greeks start hg, Basra settler, 2 vans land on spainish shore
    75 CElts learn maths, meet spanish they want to swap I don't
    approach germans again, give astro, iron working and wheel, my tech now 17 turns
    50 2 more vans for copernicus (need 2 x 20 shields for last 2 vans) Barb legions on spain mean I've got to move vans out of way
    25 Germans change from HG to copers, americans capture hamburg, greeks learn feudalism
    1 Zulu at war with greeks, germans recapture hamburg, spanish acquire engineering, we finally discover literacy -> Philosophy
    Van tabriz beads to seville [d] 68g, van Karakroum wine to toledo 50g , Khanbalyk founded [11] 50,46 (disorder), Khorasan [12] 60,35
    approach spain, iron working for engineering, poly for literacy, no gift
    rearrange workers for shield not science, tech now 32 turns


    12 cities, 24 techs, researching philo
    1 settler, 7 warriors, 1 archer, 2 triremes, 1 caravel, 6 vans
  4. Autumn Leaf

    Autumn Leaf Since 1992

    May 9, 2016
    Melbourne, Australia
    == ROUND FIVE ==

    1020: When I load my Save, Greece again invites me to ally against the Zulus. Tempting, but I decline again. Until I know where the Zulus are, I'm cautious. Two groups of Celtic units appear: Chariot and Horseman near Kabul, Chariot and Settler near Washington. So I guess the Celts are off that coastline, which I already sort of knew anyway. Caerphilly drops everything else and starts building a Trireme to explore the west coast. I know from the American map that there is another continent far west of Washington, and given the AI's perfect intelligence it is probably inhabited, but it is far beyond my Trireme range. For now, I just want to find the Celts. I also decide to rush Karakorum's library so I can build a Trireme to explore the east coasts. I send Nishapur's Horseman to reinforce Kabul.

    1040: Three Barb Legions land near Shangtu. An Elephant and a Chariot ride out
    from Shangtu to ambush them.

    1060: The Barbs advance onto grassland and are cut down.

    1080: The Celts sneak attack me. Near Kabul the Horseman kills a Settler, but the Chariot dies against another Settler standing on a hill. Down south, the Chariot destroys Washington, which was down to one pop and only protected by a sentried Horseman. City count: 18. I discover Democracy and revolt - a turn too early cursit. A Chariot from New York kills the Celt Chariot: the Celt Settler has vanished. Nishapur's Horseman kills the Celt Horsemen and avenges my murdered Settler. Karakorum launches a Trireme. Forgetting I don't have Shakes yet, I send a Catapult and a Diplomat aboard.

    1100: The Celt Settler reappears. Zulus acquire Republic. I form Democracy. My Chariot kills the Celt Settler. Shangtu and Karakorum are suddenly very unhappy. The former I fix by bringing its Chariot and Elephant home: the latter needs some adjustments because I don't want to recall its Trireme and Catapult, but is eventually made satisfactory.

    1140: Zulus acquire Navigation. Zulus revolt to form Republic. Navigation from GL. Navigation upgrades me to Caravel. I switch to Gunpowder.

    1180: My west coast explorers - Elephant, Chariot and Diplomat - find and destroy Tintagel, the new Celtic capital.

    1200: Following the road north in Celtia, I stop on forest near irrigation.

    1220: I see a Celtic Chariot go past my Celtic explorers, but it doesn't attack. Greeks rebel - Zulus capture Halicarnassus. That can't be good.

    1240: My Celtic expedition discovers Cork. The Celts want to talk. I refuse, but the wretched Senate signs a Cease Fire behind my back! I don't have the funds to subvert the city, so, disgusted, my expedition reboards its Caravel and leaves Celtia. The Celts will get another chance to backstab me. I'm tempted to drop a colony on Tintagel's site and build it up to kill off the Celts, but alas, although I have only 18 cities I'm not sure that's the best use of one of my limited city slots.

    1260: celtic Capital moved to Cork. That decides me: I know that they will come to me if I don't go to them. Ceterum autem censeo Celtia esse delendam. And now I wonder if they are actually on an island: I just found a peninsula north of Cardiff that I somehow overlooked earlier. Could it connect to Celtia? A Settler is investigating. My eastern explorers, moving south, have found land, but it looks deserted.

    1280: More eastern shores. They could connect to Germania. A plucky Diplomat has been exploring Germania since the end of the war, and it's a huge area. I decide to turn the eastern explorers east again.

    1300: More eastern land. Meanwile the peninsula near Cardiff is quite large.

    1320: Celts expel my Diplomat from Celtia.

    1340: Frankfurt turns into Settler. City count: 17. Kazan founded in Celtia. City count: 18. My exploring Settler confirms that the overlooked peninsula doesn't connect to Celtia. Karakorum, having pumped out three goods Caravans, starts work on ASTC. Samarkand is 140/400 on LW. I'd like to steal ME out from under the Zulus so depending how things go there's a chance I might switch from LW (which expires with Automobile) to ME (which doesn't expire and might be handy).

    1400: My eastern explorers have found quite a bit of land but it appears to be an empty continent. It doesn't connect to Germania, that I can see. Landing a Diplomat. I'll go pick up the Germania explorer to replace him on the boat.

    1420: Zulus discover invention. That makes it a difficult choice: if I switch Samarkand to ME to gazump them, they will almost certainly switch to LW. They don't have Economics so I could still build ME in Samarkand and try to build LW in Karakorum instead, then focus all my effort on ASTC, but doubt I can get enough Caravans into K in time to beat the bonus-boosted AI. If (as is likely) he's building ME in Zimbabwe or Bapedi, which are massive Top 5 cities, he could be very close to finishing ME. I kinda regret sending those three vans outa K now - that's 150 shields that would've put K within reach! If I sell all my city walls and some Libraries I may be able to get ME this turn and rush LW next turn. Zulus are researching Gunpowder, so I have some breathing space on ASTC if I can get ME and LW settled.

    1440: MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION IN SAMARKAND. As expected, Zulus switch to LW.

    1460: Didn't quite have the cash to rush last turn. News: Zulus have nearly completed LW! What a surprise. Well, all possible Caravans are in, Walls and Libraries sold, taxes sky high and have been for a while. It's just enough. LW rushed. In other news, my Caravel completes a circumnavigation of Celtia, which is indeed an island. I can see both Cork and Rhymney. I've stuck a Pikeman on a forest near Cork, Waiting for the Cease Fire to end.

    1480: LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP IN KARAKORUM. I gleefully watch it upgrading my obsolete units! Zulus abandon LW. Bear in mind that with that stupid persistence thing the AI resource boxes enjoy, it will take a while for all those shields to leak away. K starts work on ASTC, hoping it's a while before Zulus discover Economics. I also rather belatedly realise that Ormuz is in the wrong place: it's not eating the fish I intended it to have. Too late now. It's got 7 people in it. I'm not moving it.

    1500: Returning to the east with my Germania Diplomat, my newly upgraded Caravel spots a Zulu Elephant! I forgot to put my taxes back down so I am flush with cash again. My Diplomat bribes it from the boat for 226 gold, which is cheap for an Elephant and tells me it was a long way from home. Well, I now have a NONE Elephant to play with. After dithering a bit over whether to explore with it and risk bumping something nasty, I decide to put it on the boat, which with ME is much faster than land and still has the option of attacking from the sea.

    1510: Armagh and Boston turn into Settlers. City count: 16. That leaves just Cardiff. Quinsay founded to fill the gap between Phildelphia and Khorasan. City count: 17.

    1520: Celts sue for peace treaty. I refuse, knowing where this will go. The wretched Senate signs anyway. My western Caravel sails into the sunset to investigate the western continent that the Americans found, bearing a Settler, a NONE Horseman and a Diplomat. In the east, a Diplomat bumps into 4-pop Zulu Naples. Zulus declare war on me. Naples will revolt for 740 gold, but I don't have enough cash! I land my Catapult and Elephant and my Elephant kills the defender, but I can't occupy the city because I have no movement left.

    1530: I must have caught them on the hop because they don't replace the lost defender. I take Naples! City count: 18. I now have a foothold in Zululand, if I can keep it. My Caravel explores the coast and sinks a Zulu Caravel. It will try to get back to Naples for urgent repairs.

    1550: I bribe a Zulu Catapult and get a NONE. It pulls back, but my Diplomat stays. My Caravel finds 11-pop Zulu Mpondo across a narrows - seems I am on an island, not the Zulu mainland! GRRR. My western Caravel hits land and finds a road. The Diplomat lands and finds 4-pop Greek Mycenae. He reboards the ship rather than risk being booted back to K.

    1570: A few turns moving an army up in Zululand, protected by a Musketeer out of Naples. Poor Naples, it has 1 worker and 2 entertainers, to stop it rioting because it is supporting 2 out-of-city military units (I messed up accidentally homed K's Catapult to Naples). Meanwhile in the west, I find 5-pop Greek Troy.

    1580: ADAM SMITH'S IN KARAKORUM. K > Shakes. In the west I find 8-pop Zulu Amatikulu! Zooming out a little, I can almost fit Mpondo and Amatikulu on the screen. So now I know pretty much where the Zulus are. On what I now call Zanzibar, my army occupies a fortress near the unknown Zulu city.

    1590: One of my Diplomats bribes a Zulu Elephant outside Isipezi, which is the name of the mysterious city I have been stalking. My NONE Crusader, who was originally an Elephant, kills a Musketeer defender. My new Elephant kills a Phalanx. My NON Catapult kills a Settler, allowing my Naples Catapult and Musketeer to climb onto a hill overlooking the town.

    1600: Inter-turn I see a Zulu Catapult move into the town. My Catapult on the hill now kills it, leaving the town defenseless. My Musketeer takes the town. City count: 19. In the west, I pop a hut off the caravel and get a NONE Crusader. The site looks good for a foothold, with the Zulus between me and the Greeks. I land my expedition.

    1620: SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE IN KARAKORUM. Steam engine > Railroad. I start stockpiling Caravans for Theology and JSB.

    1630: Kerman founded in East Zululand. City count: 20.

    1670: Railroad cancels HG. Oops, forgot about that little side effect. I shoulda gone for Theology and built JSB first.

    1690: I notice that the Zulus have been researching Railroad since 1660 and concieve a cunning plan. I gift them Railroad in return for peace, wasting their research but saving them several turns. I then go to the Greeks and gift them Railroad, Navigation and Gunpowder, all of which the Zulus have! Now instead of being angry with me, they are both Neutral. With a little luck, they will keep hammering each other while I run away from them technologically. I also go to the Germans, but that works less well - they demand Sanitation, which I can't afford to let them have, and cancel our alliance. Oh, well. I gift Railroad, Steam Engine and Pottery to the Spanish in return for Magnetism and their map. Lol, looks like they wandered around north of Ormuz at some point without meeting me. Swell, now my Caravels are Galleons and can't attack anything anymore - but they move faster, are harder to kill, and don't cause unhappiness.

    1700: Greeks capture Zulu Amatikulu!

    1710: Zulus have almost finished the Eiffel Tower. I count the Caravans waiting in Karakorum, with more on the way, and grin. K just finished its Bank ... and I could use the reputation boost. Theology is a while away yet.


    1750: Peace with the Zulus. I swap maps with the Celts and the Greeks. I gift the Greeks Physics and Magnetism to help them love me - the Zulus have had those for a while. Democracy, 20 cities, pop 6.89m, 41 techs, 408 gold. Units: 92 (24 are Settlers, 16 caravans). Power Mighty, Rep Excellent. Peace with everyone. Celts Enthuiastic, Despotism, 2 cities, 13 techs; Zulus Neutral, Republic, 17 cities (pop 8.98m), 38 techs; Germans Neutral, Republic, 4 cities, 20 techs; Spanish Enthusiastic, Republic, 16 cities, 27 techs; Americans Enthusiastic, Republic, 3 cities, 24 techs; Greeks Enthusiastic, 20 cities, Despotism, 24 techs.

    The maps show that the Greeks haven't penetrated far into Zulu territory. Amatikulu was something of an outlier: the real border is at 11-pop Swazi and 7-pop Zunguin. The Zulus are building Ironclads, but their land troops are less impressive - I can only see Elephants, Archers and Phalanxes, although of course by now the cities will all have Musketeers. The Greeks have an impressive array of Catapults outside and approaching Swazi. If they don't get knocked next turn, they could easily take the town. But typical AI, they are not protecting them with Musketeers, so most of them will certainly get clobbered. There is an Elephant outside Zunguin. It's injured, but the town is defenseless. The Zulus move before the Greeks, so I don't expect the town to fall. :crazyeye:
  5. Autumn Leaf

    Autumn Leaf Since 1992

    May 9, 2016
    Melbourne, Australia
    == ROUND 6 ==

    1752: Greeks get hammered outside Swazi, as expected. Zunguin does not fall.

    1754: Indutrialization > Metallurgy (Theology not offered). Caravans backburnered while my major cities all build Factories. I have enough Caravans stockpiled for two Wonders, and the 50% increase in production will be worth it.

    1762: Metallurgy > Theology. Finally!

    1766: K hits 23 population - global Taxes and Luxuries reduced to maximise tech. Elvises converted to Einsteins.

    1770: Theology > Conscription.


    1776: WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE IN KARAKORUM. Cardiff becomes a Settler. City count: 19.

    1784: Greeks capture Zulu Swazi. Me: 8.91m; Zulus: 8.93m. So close. I expect that my popularity will take a header once I hit #1 in population. On the bright side, for now my reputation is back to Spotless and even the Zulus are feeling Cordial toward me. I share maps with the Greeks again. The new front line is Ibabanago. I manage to share maps with the Zulus too, and what a revelation it is! Seems the Greeks and Zulus didn't actually share a continent. The Zulu heartland is a big island. They also have cities on a continent to their north. Ibabanago [edit: and Zunguin] is now their last foothold in Greece, and once it falls I expect that the Greeks will turn their eyes towards Kerman. I need to turn that city into a fortress, tout-de-suite.

    1794: WLTPD. Celts and Spanish declare war on each other. Greeks capture Ibabanago. Only Zunguin is left to them in Greece.

    1796: Population #1, 9.82m.

    1798: Population 10.13m. WLTPD stopped. My power is Supreme. Suddenly Zulus and Spanish are Receptive, everyone else is Icy! :lol:

    1800: Enough for now. Busy tomorrow, so don't expect another update. Goodnight, all.
  6. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    1020 AD: Spend 6 vans for Sun Tzu. Just deny it immediately even if it’s not under threat (could be useful…)
    Interturn: Looks like the Barbs will dispose of Cannae for me. (19/20)


    1060 AD: Sanitation > ToG. Van: 290g.

    1080 AD: Capoue built. (20/20)

    1100 AD: Alright, hut. I’m going to save and reload until it’s not an AT. 3rd try yields 100g. Vans: 255, 128,
    INterturn: Zulus develop Democracy, start SoL.

    1120 AD: Zulus will not trade techs. It’s being built in Ulundi… really stretching it. Will not be able to conquer six different cities if I need to kill every single one of mine!

    1140 AD: Hut: 100g. Undemanded: 164.

    1180 AD: Iron special near Bokhara Reborn successfully transformed into wine. T4L2S4, need to rush a bank first for Bokhara Reborn.

    1200 AD: ToG > Physics. T4L2S4 for 2 more turns, I want to rush enough vans for Isaac Newton’s. Van: 354g. T2L2S6. Hut: 100g.

    1220 AD: Van: 272g. Now that my cities are size12+foreign Republics, small scale trade is working out better.

    1240 AD: Physics > Economy. Magnetism not available and neither is Demo. Hut: 100g.

    1260 AD: 182s left for Isaac Newton’s. T3L2S5. Hut: NONE crusaders.

    1280 AD: Hut: 100g. Still rushing Marketplaces so I can start building Sewers once I have Democracy, and celebrate to end game. Still, I’m giving up SoL, and giving up SoL means I AM SOL.

    1300 AD: T2L2S6. Kill Barb leader for 150g. Bokhara Reborn size 16.
    Interturn: Zulus develop Gunpowder. They’re not too far behind. Or rather, I am. But that’s not going to help for snagging the Statue of Liberty… a switch to Fundamentalism might be needed once I hit endgame on city infrastructure.

    1320 AD: Economy > Magnetism. I might have to use a dip to get Demo… why didn’t I think of that earlier?
    Interturn: Zulus ask me to sign an alliance against Greeks. Immediately after, Zulus and Greeks sign peace. WELL THEN.

    1340 AD: T3L2S5. 224g, T2L2S6. Greece is actually extremely powerful, not sure if I want to mess with them for the sake of WoWs.
    Interturn: Greeks develop Gunpowder. Looks like I’ll need tanks.

    1380 AD: Magnetism `> Democracy. T5L2S3. Hut: AT, reloaded into 100g. I really needed to remember to give Republic on research immediately…
    Interturn: Zulus almost done with SoL. RIP.

    1400 AD: Van: 415g. Not gonna try to do a fancy revolution, got deliveries coming up and can’t do it next turn.
    Interturn: Ulundi builds SoL.

    1420 AD: Why did I forget to ask them to trade Demo after they built the wonder and be more cooperative… I’m really not playing well this game. TOO LATE.

    1440 AD: Democracy > Atomic Theory. (only choice available) Oedo year 1500. Bokhara Reborn maxes out at size 23 (for now) Bokhara Reborn gold (d) to Madrid: 678g. Adam Smith’s will be ready next turn. I’ll keep pumping out vans in Bokhara for wonders. Need to get ready for Darwin’s’ and Hoover Dam. Also Miniaturization will be key.

    1460 AD: 300 beakers off of Bokhara Reborn. 60% of my total output. ADAM SMITHS IN SAMARKAND. T1L2S7. Over 3k for a city to revolt, rofl.

    1480 AD: REVOLUTION. Democracy is inbound. Hut: 100g. T0L6S4.

    1500 AD: DEMOCRACY. Quinsay hides (d) to Rhodes: 420g. T2L2S6. Just waiting for a bit to get some key vans in. Lot of gold piling up, waiting to be used in sewers. Probably have too much in stock!

    STATUS AT 1500 AD: (Beginning of 176th turn)
    Population: 11,750.000 Cities: 20/20 Government: Democracy Total advances: 45 (researching Steam Engine)
    Gold: 1573 T2L2S6 Income/Cost per turn: 150 income, 36 cost. Production: 157MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: HG, Mikes, Bach’s and MPE. Cope’s, Shakes, Leo’s, Mag’s, Adam Smith’s, Isaac Newton’s, ST. (11/18)
    Foreign relations: Peace+maps with everyone. Americans killed by Barbs.

    Man, I’m going to have to sack a lot of cities to get all of the WoW cities in my grasp… some of them are piddling around at size 3-5 specifically because of that. Maybe that's why I'm getting caught back.
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    I did celebrate my core cities around the capital beyond 12 with Lux mostly at 40% (sometimes I had to notch it up a bit but not for long). This is partially made possible by my added emphasis on infrastructure. I built my first structure in -350 and by +1 had a cost of 6, by +500 a cost of 10, and by +1000 a cost of 50. By contrast your infrastructure cost in +1000 is only 22.

    Another possible factor is terrain improvement. Lots of irrigation allows you to employ lots of entertainers while still maintaining a food surplus. You do not record your unit counts in your status, so I cannot compare but if you see fewer settlers than mine it would translate to fewer land improvements.
    WildPony likes this.
  8. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    I sent a diplomat into Madrid (home of Colossus and Copernicus) in +1260 to see what I am up against if I want to capture it. It had a Phalanx and 2 musketeers for defenders and no city walls. With only 3 dragoons (none of them vet) I decided not to risk it. I could have brought on another dragoon but I figured even that would likely be insufficient. Due to its geography, there is only one good landing place and thus if it cannot be captured on the first attempt, your entire surviving attack force can be killed by a counter attack.

    Instead I decided to delay a bit and make 2 more dragoons at a nearby city. Meanwhile I had plenty of good deliveries and pushed science to Tactics and Leo upgraded my units to cavalry. Now, with 5 cavalry I feel confident about attacking Madrid and plan to do so in +1400. I shall switch to democracy in +1420 regardless of the outcome. I have delayed democracy by centuries and cannot afford to anymore.
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    Did Madrid have Barracks? If yes, that's a significant detail.
  10. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    Good point. I always make a note of that. No, in this case it did not.
  11. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    +1020 3 barbarian Knights land near Kashghar and Quinsay. I have 3 musketeers in the area but no diplomats. Newton built. Explosives -> Economics. T2L4S4. Musketeer kills barbarian knight.
    +1040 Musketeer survives barbarian knight. Domestic Beads for 36.
    +1060 None musketeer from hut.
    +1080 Copper to Zimbabwe for 196. Gems to Barcelona for 132. Musketeer from hut.
    +1100 Americans build Liberty and Greeks build Great Wall. Economics -> Physics. Salt from Karakorum to Zulu for 420. Wine to Barcelona for 300. T0L4S6
    +1120 Musketeer survives the last of barbarian knights and turns vet. Physics -> Atomic Theory.
    +1140 Barbarian leader in Spain for 150g. T2L4S4
    +1160 Salt to Celts for 88.
    +1180 None musketeer from hut.
    +1200 Atomic Theory -> Magnetism. 100g from polar hut.
    +1220 Advanced tribe of size 3 from hut; reload and get 8 barbarian horsemen!
    +1240 2 barbarian horsemen die in attack on my musketeer; the rest kill it off. Beads to Celtic Kells for 114.
    +1260 Magnetism -> Steam Engine. Wine to Kells for 180. Wine to Spanish for 430, 450.
    +1280 Steam Engine -> Metallurgy. Silver to Zulu for 280.
    +1300 Steam Engine -> German -> Metallurgy. Advanced tribe twice from hut; reload and get 100g.
    +1320 -> Conscription -> Tactics. Domestic Dye for 100. None musketeer from hut. Two barbarian knights from polar hut disappear the next turn.
    +1340 Germans deliver to Karakorum.
    +1360 Hides to Zulu for 220.
    +1380 Tactics -> Electricity.
    +1400 Kashgar disbanded into an Engineer. Revolution started. Celt -> 150g; Zulu, German, American -> 0g; Spanish -> 50g; Greeks declare war over my demand for tribute. 4 Cavalry kill 3 musketeers and a phalanx defending Madrid. Fifth cavalry takes Madrid for Colossus, Copernicus, 122g, Warrior Code, and Harbor. Spanish government escapes to Valencia, home of the Magellan.
    +1420 Adam Smith built. Celt -> 150g; Zulu, German, American -> 0g; Spanish diplomat killed. Democracy established. Domestic offshore Copper for 316. Gems to Zulu for 516. T0L4S6
    +1440 Electricity -> Refrigeration.
    +1460 Zulu build Oracle. Refrigeration -> Feudalism. Navigation -> Celt -> Feudalism. Silver to Barcelona for 365. Coal to Leipzig for 265.
    +1480 -> Amphibious Warfare -> Theology. 100g from hut. Gold to Zulu for 594. 2 Spanish units killed.
    +1500 Americans deliver to Karakorum. Theology -> Railroad. Domestic wine for 352 establishes the first trade route of Madrid.

    Status at +1500
    Population: 20.7M; Cities: 20; Techs: 53; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 782; Cost: 80; Trade routes: 17D25F;
    Ancient Wonders: Hanging Gardens, Colossus
    Medieval Wonders: Copernicus, Marco, King Richard, Michelangelo, Shakespeare
    Industrial Wonders: Leo, Newton, Adam Smith
    Units: 16 Engieers (3 None), 14 Riflemen (4 None), 8 Cavalry (1 None), 8 Galleons, 2 Diplomats, 14 caravans, 1 explorer
    Goals: Full trade routes in all cities; Bach (4 turns), Cure, Darwin; exploration for huts; conquest of Valencia for Magellan?
    Notes: Still have one city left that is planned to be be disbanded (currently size 2)
    Footprint: 6 near the capital on 5; 3 more on 5 but slightly away; 2 in the NW peninsula of 5 quite far away; 4 near Germans on 5; Madrid; 1 on each of 2, 31, 32, 36.
    Celt: 7 cities, 26 techs;
    Zulu: 10 cities, 34 techs; Lighthouse, Sun Tzu, Oracle
    German: 7 cities, 37 techs; Great Library
    Spanish: 12 cities, 27 techs; Magellan; war with me
    American: 8 cities, 34 techs; Pyramids, Statue of Liberty
    Greek: 17 cities, 17 techs; Great Wall; nominal war with me

  12. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    You only have room for only one more city to be disbanded. (I had at least 4 that were disbanded and not contributing a whole lot, which most likely led me to fall behind production/research wise. Also the added focus on WoW vans instead of earlier infrastructure) The AI have 8 WoWs built, so that's a lot of WoW points that you'll be missing out on... most likely you will be able to land earlier than I will. But I wonder if the lack of WoW is going to offset the difference in GOTM score from landing earlier, or maybe not. I ended up having the space to reconquer every AI WoW save for one.

    (However, my next part of the log has quite a fat mistake. Which ain't gonna help.)
  13. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    Indeed. The wonder race in this game has been tight. Pretty much anything that becomes available gets worked on by someone. Currently a couple of rivals are working on Eiffel. I have not shared Theology and will not till I build Bach.

    As for the final score, I have no idea. But your approach since the beginning was different. You went for war and I pursued peace. Madrid is the only city I have taken so far and I debated its value while I stayed away from Democracy because of it. I am still not sure if the attack was worthwhile. It could have been better to just build another city, switch to democracy asap and move on.
  14. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    But I didn't pursue war? At first I was planning on attacking Celts to snatch Colossus and make Cardiff my SSC, since I got some military units from huts. But they got Great Wall (which put a cold stop to my plans, would require too many resources to break city walls) and I got Philosophy from a hut (really lucky!)
    That meant that my SunTzu building city ended up building Mikes instead, and I resumed conventional earlyish republic. A few turns off of completion too. First I got some AT's, then the timely Phil hut... and getting screwed out of early monarchy and getting Chivalry pre-AD as well. My hut luck was textbook roller-coaster-ism this game.

    Also surprised that you built Newton's whilst still waiting on Madrid's capture. Instead of a big SSC on another landmass, you get two half SSC's. Surely this is suboptimal or was Isaac's being actively contested by AI's?
  15. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    Good point. It was a conscious decision for several reasons:
    - I already had Hanging Gardens in Nishapur and almost all of the shields for Shakespeare which was finished a turn after the Spanish built Copernicus.
    - The wonder race was, and still is, very tight. All 21 pre modern wonders are already built. While the AI does not put much value on Newton, it was quite possible that if left, someone else would build it. It has happened to every other wonder so far.
    - Thanks to King Richard's I had the shields in Nishapur (Newton was built without van help). Other than Colossus, the other two races I lost were because of the tech.
    - Past the discovery of Sanitation in +680 Nishapur built a sewer and quickly grew. Because of King Richrad's and the special attention it has been receiving, soon there were no useful structures left to build in Nishapur and its output soon grew beyond 25 so even food van production would have been wasteful. I had to build something in Nishapur, I figured it may as well be Newton.
    - Nishapur already had a library and university so it could benefit from Newton.
    - There would have been a big loss of opportunity cost had I not built Newton when I did. Newton was built in +1020. Madrid was captured in +1400, it was reduced to size 3 and had only a harbor left. Even if I built Newton there right away, it would have been quite a while before it would make a meaningful difference.
    - With no other cities close by, the logistics of getting vans to Madrid for wonder building would have been formidable.
    - Last, and perhaps most important, conquest of Madrid was always a long shot. They had gunpowder but luckily not conscription. Furthermore, they did not have a wall. If they did, it would have been very difficult to tear it down because Madrid had a lot of other structures as well. I would have needed something like 6 diplomats just to achieve that.
    WildPony likes this.
  16. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    Big fat mistake incoming. Also, infrastructure deficit doesn't help me either for speed of tech progression... although I might have taken the transitions between technological eras too slowly in order to build said infrastructure.

    1510 AD: Steam Engine > Railroad. Van: 504g. T3L2S5.

    1520 AD: T4L2S4. Might as well make a stockpile for Hoover!

    1530 AD: Railroad > Industrialization. T1L7S2, I have to go extra on luxuries since HG expired. Maybe should have gone earlier with the celebrations. I’m boosted.

    1540 AD: Celebrations are starting.

    1550 AD: T2L6S2.

    1560 AD: Hut: 50g. T2L5S3. “I have to go extra on luxuries”

    1580 AD: Industrialization > Metallurgy. Some celebrations end, have to watch F4 more carefully at 50%... Hut: BARBS!. RIP explorer. Hut: BARBS AGAIN! Dang..

    1620 AD: Metallurgy > Darwin’s > The Corporation > Electricity > Electronics. Van: 865g,

    1630 AD: Since I’m building so many Courthouses to compensate for no CfC I’m doing half the endgame work already…

    1640 AD: Electronics > Refrigeration. Vans: 268, 678. I must have hiked science at this point.

    1660 AD: Refrigeration > Conscription. 164,

    1680 AD: Conscription > Leadership. HOOVER DAM IN BOKHARA REBORN. T7L2S1 to rush a few factories.

    1690 AD: Van: 455.

    1700 AD: Van: 725.

    1710 AD: Leadership > Steel. Van: 606g. T3L2S5

    1730 AD: Steel > Communism (only other choice Fundy) I’ll need to rush some Colosseums soon. Van: 90g, 774g, T4L2S4.

    1740 AD: Communism > Tactics. Civil disorder in 3 cities, some colosseums rushed to deal with this problem. Van: 780. T1L2S7.

    1750 AD: ORMUZ REVOLUTION, GOVERNMENT FALLS. FJFJFDFDSFIODNFOSNO!!!!! How did I miss that? I checked F4 at least 3 times!! Specifically because of communism acquisition! Oh god, I have until turn 208 (1764 AD) to wait until getting back! No choice, I NEED to conquer Ulundi STAT. T0L6S4, 900g to spare. AND I DON&#8217;T EVEN HAVE TACTICS RESEARCHED. HFDLSFJDOJFS <message removed by moderator>
    I don&#8217;t even have MPE&#8217;s embassy anymore&#8230; Better hope that Ulundi doesn&#8217;t get walls in the next few turns.

    No recap because I&#8217;m too salty.
    On the bright side I do have Sun Tzu&#8230;
  17. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    First of all, if you get a deterministic event like this that is the result of something you clearly planned to do but forgot, overlooked, pressed enter too soon, .... you are allowed to go back and replay. This is for things you intended to do not some after thoughts about should haves and could haves. And of course this does not apply to non-deterministic events like barbarian sea raiders landing around your city.

    Secondly, why do you have to wait till +1764? The next Oedo year is +1756.
  18. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Nov 15, 2010
    That is the case for normal anarchies.

    In the case of an Anarchy Fall (city rioting 2 turns in a row during democracy) the first Odeo year is SKIPPED. The Anarchy Fall flag is activated: you have to wait a cycle to get rid of the AF flag, then wait another full cycle until you can actually choose government again. You have to wait 5-8 turns instead of 0-4 turns. Starlifter made a post about it way back after I encountered this problem for the first time in GOTM124.

    This also means that if you have the SoL and riot during an Oedo year, the Statue of Liberty's anarchy-eliminating properties won't immediately trigger (you have to wait another turn) I assume because the elimination of the AF flag overrules any WoW-esque effects in the game's coding. If you riot during a non-oedo year, then the SoL works as intended. (AKA the 0-turn revolutions on-demand. They are used during GOTM 176 and later on in this game, if you can jerry-rig one of your underdeveloped/high-pop cities to have toggleable unrest.)

    Just reviewed my 1740 save: apparently I thought that Ormuz could build the rest of the Colosseum by itself since it was 91/100. But I never once noticed that the city was already rioting (never thought that yo, city has no production) and I thought that it was some kind of obscure mechanic that I wasn't aware of. That makes it even worse. 18g.

    Edit: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10692685&postcount=7
    Here's the relevant post by Starlifter.
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    May 29, 2002
    Michigan, USA
    I stand corrected about the year. Thanks for the reference. I must have read this before but since this kind of collapse has not happened recently (ever?) to me I could not recall.
  20. Autumn Leaf

    Autumn Leaf Since 1992

    May 9, 2016
    Melbourne, Australia
    Jokemaster, that is truly disastrous at a tight point in a GOTM. You have my complete sympathy!

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