GOTM 31 Spoiler I - End of Ancient Age, Map of starting continent.

[Dianthus]

1.27f

Initial thoughts (Taken directly from my QSC Timeline)

Just started reading the next Tad Williams book, and at the start it says:

He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder.

So, I’ve decided to go for Predator, so I won’t be too sure whether I will win or not! Also, I’ve only one untried win condition for GOTM, Conquest. As this is an ainwood map I’m expecting lots of one tile islands, but it’s gonna be Conquest or bust!


QSC (4000BC to 1000BC)

I couldn't see it myself, but Wheat was spotted during the pregame discussion. My first move was the worker South to see if the water was lake or coast, and if that Wheat was real or imaginary. The worker revealed the 2 Wheat, so I moved my settler South-East and settled Paris in 3950BC.

My initial builds in Paris were :
Warrior (Turn 10, 3550BC)
Granary (Turn 25, 2800BC)
Worker (Turn 27, 2710BC)
Settler (Turn 31, 2550BC)

Paris then churned out a Settler every 4 turns for the rest of the QSC period, and a little afterwards. I didn't spot that a 4-6 turn factory was possible, I just went for 5-7 with 2 irrigated Wheat, one of which I shared with Lyons which was producing Workers. Here is Paris at 2710BC when it started it's 4 turn settler production:

I remained peaceful during the QSC period, though did some aggresive blocking to prevent England/Iroquois from moving their settlers through to the South of my territory. I did very little research, instead relying on trading with England/Iroquois:

3500BC : Complete research of Pottery (@100%)
2270BC : Trade Alphabet+4g to Iroquois for The Wheel.
1750BC : Complete research of Writing (@10%)
1725BC : Mysticism, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, traded from Iroquois for
1725BC : Trade Writing to Iroquois for Mysticism, Bronze Working, Warrior Code + 39g.
1725BC : Trade Writing+16g+3gpt to England for Iron Working.

At 1000BC England/Iroquois had a number of techs I could buy (Philosophy, Map Making, Horseback Riding), but there was no reason to buy them yet. In fact, Horseback Riding was to be avoided as I wanted to continue producing my 20 shield Chariots ready for upgrading.

Here's my 1000BC minimap :

And my 1000BC QSC stats :
13 towns
1 Settler
11 Workers
1 Slave
5 Regular Warriors
16 Veteran Chariots
Contact and embassies with England and Iroquois.


Rest of Ancient Times (1000BC to 310BC)

The first thing I did post QSC was make a ROP with England/Iroquois. This was for 3 reasons:
1) I wasn't intending to go to war quite yet, and a per turn deal would help discourage them.
2) I wanted to explore their territory to plan for future attacks (and also to qualify for this spoiler... ).
3) I now had enough troops to completely block access to my territory (see the following screenshot).

I continued building military (chariots), exploring England/Iroquois lands, and made a start on building a navy. I also continued my policy of min research. My navy made contact with SpoilerAI #1/#2 in 370BC and SpoilerAI #3 in 310BC, so enabling some trading opportunities:
750BC : Complete research of Code of Laws (@10%).
750BC : Trade 338g to Iroquois for Map Making (so we can start building a Navy) and Philosophy (so we can start researching The Republic).
550BC : Trade ROP+Horses to England for Maths+161g.
550BC : Trade ROP to Iroquois for 33g.
310BC : Trade 272g to SpoilerAI#1 for Currency.
310BC : Trade Currency+13g to England for Construction.
310BC : Trade Currency to Iroquois for Polytheism+Horse Back Riding+11g.

Here's a minimap (editted to remove Spoiler suicide galleys) at 310BC:

At this point I had 18 workers, 5 warriors, 6 galleys and 42 chariots, and was actually strong compared to England and average compared to Iroquois. My ROP with England is due to expire in 8 turns, so I have that long to upgrade my Chariots and locate my troops ready for the attack. Surprisingly I was also #1 in score at this point, which I really hadn't expected at Emperor level, let alone playing Predator too!

 

[Karasu]

I rarely find the time to post in the spoiler threads -ok, almost like Mabellino, this is just my second submission since GOTM23. But I generally am too lazy to prepare screenshots, let alone edit them to highlight some idea...

So, what am I doing here?
Well... hopefully as an effect of the Players' Choice Award (at least in part ), it seems that everyone is writing wonderful posts this month. And I posted nothing!
This is clearly shameful of me, especially considering that I managed to play a good GOTM30.

Having said this, I just realize that I did not save the notes I took for my QSC period...

Well, whatever.
As I declared in the pre-game thread, I moved the settler SE (wasn't that clarvoyance!) and started working on the now-standard 4-turn settler factory.

Having played GOTM30 to domination, I wanted to go for another type of victory. I would love to achieve a nice 20k finish, but this map didn't seem to lend itself too well, so I picked 100k -the last time I played this was almost exactly one year ago, with GOTM18: my goal is to beat that result, playing with a civ with less favourable attributes.

With this in mind, my early game was:

Expansion
- Paris kept on building settlers for a long time.
- I founded the next four-five cities at RCP distance 3, driven essentially by the lake and wines nearby.
- These cities were meant to build mainly military units. I also built Temples there fairly early, which was probably a mistake in that it slowed my initial expansion for a few culture points.

Research
- I gambled on Writing, and got Pottery, Ceremonial Burial and Bronze Working out of the first round of deals.
- I then went straight to Republic, but was unlucky with Writing, as both Iroquois and English reached it at the same time. I managed to trade Philosophy a bit later on, though, so I always was on tech parity with the others.
- After Republic, I went for Literature and traded into the Middle Ages (310 BC).

By the way, I like a lot the way Sabre posted a timeline of his scientific progress. It would be nice to see the same thing from Kuningas...

Wars
I need of course a lot of cities, and I thought it would be nice to acquire the entire starting continent. Having noticed that English and Iroquois had no Iron nor Horses connected made it somewhat easier.

During the long research for Republic I amassed enough money to upgrade warriors to swordsmen (incidentally, after the upgrade I only built Horsemen).

I started attacking the English around 875 BC, and the Iroquois in 630 BC. Both were gone by 450 BC -by the way, the fact that now contacts are traded a lot later makes sordid tactics ( Offa) more appealing...

After securing the home continent, I used the soon-to-be obsolete Swordsmen somewhere else with some success, but that belongs to the next spoiler.

Forbidden Palace
This was a nightmare. I didn't know where I wanted it.
In the end, thanks to a Great Leader, I placed it in former Iroquois lands -but it took a while to get this second core running.
The option would have been an earlier FP closer to the capital, but in what seemed not good locations, or... overseas?

I am still not sure about the 'optimal' placement for the FP. Comments anyone?

QSC
11 cities + 2 settlers
32 pop
Contact with 2 overseas civs
Four techs from MA, but researching Republic (due in 29)
Treasury: 40 + 22 gpt
Score: 284
Army: 2 Settlers, 6 Workers, 1 Warrior, 13 Swordsmen, a few Horsemen (can't remeber)
1 Granary
4 Barracks
3 Temple + 1 due in 1 turn

The known world at 1000 BC

And at 390 BC

Conclusions
An early comparison with my previous 100k game shows some improvements: it will be interesting to compare them in the end.

I am shocked by Kuningas' efficiency with the early expansion -which confirms my impression that I should have postponed building temples.
And I should have micromanaged more (but I am way too lazy to do that... ).

It will be interesting to see how we dealt with the Golden Age.

[Civ 1.29f Open]

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by Karasu
..considering that I managed to play a good GOTM30.

The understament of the year. See the GotM30 result thread...

And.. not 100k, that's what I intend to do. There goes that outside chance of a medal...

Anyway, my report will be added later, I, as one of the few here did *not* move the settler SE. Not being a fan of RCP, I normally don't use it, but this month I decided to use it and try to max the result. This made me move the settler NW since chances of more complete circles should be better, and they were. But I had no early settler factory, so my early score is low. It's interesting to see whether the higher number of productive cities will compensate this later.

 

[Karasu]

Originally posted by a space oddity
The understament of the year... See the GotM30 result thread...

...Nope. See my profile under "interests"...

But don't worry about your 100k award. Whenever I try to get one, I am regularly beaten by a few thousands years...
It will be interesting to discuss strategies, though.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Dianthus
I didn't spot that a 4-6 turn factory was possible, I just went for 5-7 with 2 irrigated Wheat, one of which I shared with Lyons which was producing Workers.

I thought 4-6 would be possible, but I prefer 5-7 anyway, as you get more gold that way. Is 4-6 better? I guess you can pop the first settler a little earlier

 

[Doc Holliday]

Ok here goes my first GOTM spoiler

Initially I was very pleased with my start. I noticed however my settler started on a bonus grassland so I decided to move him a space to the left and mine the bonus land with my worker. I threw out a couple warriors and got more and more happy with my surrounding land. So began the expansion phase of my game. I met the English rather quickly and we began a peaceful trading relationship....but that wouldn't last .

After the expansion phase I was tired of seeing Liz's ugly mug so I launched a thousand troops and began my plans to wipe her of the face of the earth. I built Great Library and was able to use that as my crutch for the remainder of the ancient age.

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by AlanH
I thought 4-6 would be possible, but I prefer 5-7 anyway, as you get more gold that way. Is 4-6 better? I guess you can pop the first settler a little earlier

There's not much in it, but here are a couple of advantages I can think of:

1. Takes less time to setup
2. Lower population requires less lux tax.
3. No need for river/lake/aquaduct (OK, so this one was irrelevant this month!)
4. Less error prone. If you don't have enough shields on the 4th turn in a 5-7 settler factory it tends to mess things up a bit. In a 4-6 you've got another 2 turns leeway in the build cycle.
   [/list=1]

 

[Megalou]

Originally posted by Karasu
I am still not sure about the 'optimal' placement for the FP. Comments anyone?

I'm going for an FP and palace flip at home, because I'm trodding the research path this time and want to improve my Middle Ages research compared to past efforts. Going for Culture 100K, IMHO you should put your FP or palace on another continent. You'll probably be able to scrape up temples, librarys, etc. fairly quickly on your home continent anyway. The most daring thing to do is obviously to build FP around Salamanca and then hope for a(nother) leader to rush palace on some other continent (or bring tons of native workers to set up a complex palace flip). If you have "logistics" problems i.e. a hard time to get to other continents I'd say start with an FP at home.

Looking forward to hearing what you actually did with your

 

[Kuningas]

Originally posted by Karasu
By the way, I like a lot the way Sabre posted a timeline of his scientific progress. It would be nice to see the same thing from Kuningas... [/B]

AI got writing quite late 1650BC:

-
2110BC Mathematics (40t)
-
- (3t waited writing)
-
1400BC Currency (20t)
1275BC Philosophy (5t)
1000BC Polytheism (11t)

3200BC Iroquois: Alphabet for Pottery and 35g
2900BC English: Masonry for BW, CB and 33g. Iroquois: Masonry for WC.
1650BC Iroquois: Mathematics for Writing and 137g. English: Mathematics for Mysticism and 21g.
1375BC English: Currency for IW, The Wheel, 50g.
1275BC Iroquois: Philosophy, Currency for Map Making, HorseBR, 37g.
1000BC English: Philosophy, Polytheism and 3g for worker and Code of Laws.


Congratulations Karasu for Gotm30 gold

 

[Offa]

@ Karasu

Congratulations for GOTM30. I am glad if your win and your involvement in the Player's choice has embarassed you into posting a game report, a very good one at that.

You certainly conquered the opening continent very quickly. Did the Iro and English have time to build you any Wonders?

Do you think gold medallists should not be allowed to play Predator as they find it too easy?

I don't think the later contacts (ie no contact trading after maps) really affected getting away with violating the Iroquois so much as the AI's reluctance to explore with any real vigour.

 

[smackster]

Originally posted by Kuningas
2110BC Mathematics (40t)
1400BC Currency (20t)
1275BC Philosophy (5t)
1000BC Polytheism (11t)
------------------------------------------
1375BC English: Currency for IW, The Wheel, 50g.
1275BC Iroquois: Philosophy, Currency for Map Making, HorseBR, 37g.
1000BC English: Philosophy, Polytheism and 3g for worker and Code of Laws.

It appears that your fantastic tech rate was actually due to that maths/currency/philosophy research. I went for Writing, and then Map Making but that didn't give me anywhere near the trades you got.

Smackster

 

[Lord Jimbob]

Originally posted by Kuningas
2110BC Mathematics (40t)
1400BC Currency (20t)
1275BC Philosophy (5t)
1000BC Polytheism (11t)

3200BC Iroquois: Alphabet for Pottery and 35g
2900BC English: Masonry for BW, CB and 33g. Iroquois: Masonry for WC.
1650BC Iroquois: Mathematics for Writing and 137g. English: Mathematics for Mysticism and 21g.
1375BC English: Currency for IW, The Wheel, 50g.
1275BC Iroquois: Philosophy, Currency for Map Making, HorseBR, 37g.
1000BC English: Philosophy, Polytheism and 3g for worker and Code of Laws.

phew! I am definitely going to reevaluate my research path after witnessing this meteoric progression. Obviously it makes a lot of sense to not compete w/the AI civs for the obvious research targets (e.g. writing, MM), at least if you are trying to speed tech pace, but I never really thought it could make such a big difference as to the start of the MA! I am continually impressed by you guys, Kuningas.

 

[conehead234]

PTW 1.27 Predator

Starting Mining on the spot and move the settler SE. Wheat! Looks like a great start. Settle paris. Another wheat. Contact England in 3650 BC. Trade mansory for Pottery, CB, and 10 gold. Start 40 turn research on writing. Find our French wines. First Settler is built in 3050BC and a granery is started. Iroquis contacted in 3000 BC. Trade Alphabet for BW and 10 gold. Settle Orleans in 2900 BC by the wines north of Paris. In 2470 the wines are hooked up. In 2430BC the Granery is built in paris and a settler is started. In 2270 BC I buy Ironworking from England for 132 gold. England build Nottingham by the iron. GRR. IN 2070 BC Lyons is settled. In 1910BC Writing comes in. We are the first to get it. Trade it to England for WC, Wheel, and 39 gold. Trade writing to Iroquois for Mysticism and 25 gold. Set research for MapMaking at 4o turns. Settle Rheims on horses east of Paris. Spot some iron in the tunrda down south. Around 1400 BC I started to block England and Iroquois settler pairs. In 1225BC I finally finished a blockcade with my warriors along the river north of paris. By 690BC I almost finished settling my side of the continent. In 170BC I research Monarchy, trade it to the Iroquois for construction and into the MA I go.

 

[civ_steve]

v1.21f

I'm working on screenshots, but I thought I'd throw out a few comments first.

On playing Predator level: it's not easier than open; the AI has been given certain benefits and the challenge is for the human player to take advantage of those benefits, make use of them or turn them against the AI players. A player who is used to playing the same formula every game will do poorly at Predator. This game the AI have an extra Settler, so they'll have two cities right off the bat, and probably faster research. The human player can counter by researching unpopular Techs, or saving money to buy and trade Techs (which is hard to do in this game with only two initial trading partners.) (I've not researched this, but I wonder if having the early extra city forces the AI into earlier Wonder building? If so, this would benefit the player who plans to capture useful Wonders, and starts building his military, and penalize a player who always has to build an early wonder.) I viewed the loss of the Worker in GOTM30 as a delay mechanism that I could eventually overcome, and therefore not a huge deal, and as it turned out I actually got my first ever award!

Kuningas: nice research path! I also started with a 40 turn minimum research on Mathmatics, which gave me great trading possibilities. (If we were all alone on an island, this could be a VERY bad choice, btw.) Unfortunately, the English and Iroquios met each other before I met the Iroquois; one of them must have popped a hut with Masonry in it (probably the Iroquois). I wasn't able to trade either of my starting Techs and had to buy Pottery outright.

One more thing: I see that lot's of pure 4 Turn Settler factories have been set up. I also did not see a way to form a combo-factory, that produces a Warrior-Settler in 4 Turns. I was very dismayed at losing 6 shields every cycle with my 4-5-5-6 setup. So I set up a 5-Turn combo factory (5-5-5-6-6) that, after adding a Barracks, could turn out TWO Vet Warriors (or a Vet Chariot) and a Settler every cycle. Slightly slower city growth, but a much nicer army!

More later ...

 

[samildanach]

On playing Predator level: it's not easier than open; the AI has been given certain benefits and the challenge is for the human player to take advantage of those benefits, make use of them or turn them against the AI players. A player who is used to playing the same formula every game will do poorly at Predator. This game the AI have an extra Settler, so they'll have two cities right off the bat, and probably faster research. The human player can counter by researching unpopular Techs, or saving money to buy and trade Techs (which is hard to do in this game with only two initial trading partners.) (I've not researched this, but I wonder if having the early extra city forces the AI into earlier Wonder building? If so, this would benefit the player who plans to capture useful Wonders, and starts building his military, and penalize a player who always has to build an early wonder.) I viewed the loss of the Worker in GOTM30 as a delay mechanism that I could eventually overcome, and therefore not a huge deal, and as it turned out I actually got my first ever award!

You said exactly what I said - except in a verbose fashion.
Why haven't you upgraded to 1.27f civsteve? I see you are still playing 1.21f as it no doubt gives you an unfair advantage over your fellow competitors much in the same that playing predator does. Your blatant use of the Great Library exploit( corrected for in 1.27f) in GOTM 29 I found disgusting. I'm glad you are happy with your award - I personally am getting absolutely sick of the amount of cheating and general lack of fair play in this competition.

Moderator Action: If you have a problem with things that you consider to be exploitive, then please raise the issue with the staff. It is not appropriate to raise it in this manner -> flaming is not tolerated. I will choose to believe that you were not accusing civ_steve of cheating.

We make every effort to ensure that the game is played on a level playing field, and we are thorough with the checking to support this.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[felagund]

This is my first GOTM and I must say I am finding it a bit tough as I usually play on Regent level. I am playing conquest class of course. Didn't get off to a very good start. The Iriquois seem to have raced ahead. They had a few wars with england and took over England's capital. In 420AD I started a war with England myself and left them with just one city. I realise the mistake I made now of breaking a trade deal I had with England of horses. I have taken a rep hit and now in the middle ages no AI civs will trade with me because I broke this deal with England. Oh well, at least I am learning

Its now 530AD and Iroquois are more than double my score
Look at the following screenshot to see just how badly I am doing...

Moderator Action: Images uploaded and placed in line - AlanH

 

[Karasu]

@Felagund
Welcome to the GOTM, and have fun!

@ Kuningas
Wow. You really did use the full potential of tech trading... Do you think this can be a sort of 'standard research path' for the AA (given similar circumstances of course)?


@Offa:
Thanks. I was really embarassed, you know: Let me blame it on time, which is always too short to do everything...

Yes, the Iroquois got two wonders in Salamanca. Sorry I forgot to mention it.
A few turns before I conquered the Iroquois someone built the Oracle (IIRC), starting a cascade that ended with their building the Great Lighthouse.

That was actually a stroke of luck, as this wonder turned out to be very useful later on: I had a puzzled Great Leader wondering what to do with his skills... with the GL safe in the continent I didn't have to torture my brain further, and went for the Forbidden Palace.

What surprised me is that the Iroquois had horses within easy reach of a city, but neglected to connect them.
The English never managed to do anything.

In fact, they have been collecting a string of appearances as punching bags lately... I fear our English players will be calling for a GOTM as England one of these months to see them rule the world for a change

Talking about abuse and sordid acts -I think you are right. Still, knowing they won't be able to trade contacts gave me this feeling of impunity...
In fact, it is more as you say -moreover, this map has no coastal-sea route between continents, so you can safely bet on AI civs not meeting one another for a long time :devil2:


@Megalou:
You have a point there.
My greatest doubts always come from trading time against placement. Lately, I have been favouring an early build over waiting for the best spot.
But I am not sure to what extent one can push this. Of course, it depends on what kind of game you are playing. Still...

In fact, I think a reasonable compromise was to place the FP near Salamanca (as I did). I am not sure about moving the palace later on, though.
I did exactly what you say GOTM30: I built the FP in London and (much) later on I moved the palace to America, with a late Great Leader. But it was late in the game, and it probably didn't change things too much.

 

[AlanH]

In fact, they have been collecting a string of appearances as punching bags lately... I fear our English players will be calling for a GOTM as England one of these months to see them rule the world for a change

Funny you should mention that ...

In fact, it is more as you say -moreover, this map has no coastal-sea route between continents, so you can safely bet on AI civs not meeting one another for a long time :devil2:

But be careful of the Lighthouse

 

[Karasu]

Funny you should mention that ...

I just felt your pain as everyone was going on describing how quickly and easily they eliminated the English...

Actually, my first game with them is still one of my favourite ('twas the old Tournament), so I wouldn't mind trying them too one of these GOTMs.

But be careful of the Lighthouse

That was walking of the edge of spoiler information, wasn't it...

 

[samildanach]

Moderator Action: If you have a problem with things that you consider to be exploitive, then please raise the issue with the staff. It is not appropriate to raise it in this manner -> flaming is not tolerated. I will choose to believe that you were not accusing civ_steve of cheating.

We make every effort to ensure that the game is played on a level playing field, and we are thorough with the checking to support this.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I see no good reason for PTW players not to have upgraded to 1.27f and in my view it should be mandatory. Why isn't it ? Incidentally, I'm not accusing civ_steve of cheating but of behaving in an unfair manner, you know which players I was referring to as regards to cheating.
Who do I raise it with if I think a member of staff is cheating? Since you started running things, ainwood, staff members have been doing very well in the GOTM -suprisingly so. I think staff members should be prohibited from playing in the GOTM there is clearly a conflict off interest - you can't be expected to police yourselves as well as run things.
I've said it before that it should be all or nothing - that we should either allow cheating or have zero tolerance for it - in the case of cheating allowed I would be happy to compete against staff players.