GOTM / COTM too difficult?

[KingAlbert]

I have some remarks concerning the difficulty levels of the COTM.

COTM01: regent level
COTM02: monarch level
COTM03: demigod level

So I predict that COTM04 will be at least on deity level. Perhaps that for the experienced players on this forum, this is a fun challenge, but for a regent level player like me, getting my butt kicked by the AI is not my definition of a fun CIV3 game.

Off course their are the conquest entries for the COTM which are supposed to even the odds for the warlord/regent players but those additionnal units and gold don't add up for the increased AI-capabilities.

I believe that creating COTM-games with such a "high" difficulty level, turns players down. Would it not be better to include an addittional class which can be played on regent-level (without the artificial extra's to compensate for the higher difficulty-level).

In any case I have decided to stop playing COTM's since getting beaten by the AI cause more frustration and takes away all the fun out of playing CIV3

 

[-0blivion-]

Whats wrong with being beaten? Seriously.

You learn a lot more. I was personally stuck in a rut on warlord lvl. I just didn't know what to do. But i decided to try a monarch game. Lost completely. But i learnt incredible amounts doing it.

And right now i am comfortable on emperor, and OK on Demigod if i have a pretty good settler factory at the start. I am nearing the end of this COTM, and i am going to lose. But i don't care. It has been hella fun. I personally enjoy playing on demigod where i am not comfortable, than sitting there for hours playing emperor when i know i am going to win. After 100 turns it is practically a given.

 

[grs]

So I predict that COTM04 will be at least on deity level.

If you look at the history of the GOTM games this is wrong, you just can't predict it.

[rant]
To be true - you don't predict it, you just tell that here to use a very impolite way to ask for a lower difficulty level. Why not simply post: Please make the next Cotm not deity, but regent or monarch? Would be totally acceptable I guess.
[/rant]

In my opinion it has to be a mixture of higher and lower level games like it is. Some are more interesting for the stronger players and other are better suited for occasional players. Splitting the game would be no fun, cause I - personally - like to compare to the stronger AND weaker ones.

 

[ainwood]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

First and foremost, the next COTM game won't be deity!

It is a difficult balance to strike, because for those player that don't want to play because the level is too high; there will also be some who don't want to play because its too easy.

The 'conquest' class isn't supposed to make-up for the bonuses that the AI gets on these higher levels - it is simply designed to give the player a bit of a head-start over what players normally get starting on a given level, and hopefully allow them to get off to a good enough start that they will gain a bit of confidence that they can compete with the AI.

Whilst the over-riding goal of the competition is simply to have fun, what we also try to encourage is for people to move out of their comfort zone a bit, and try more difficult levels. Reading the spoilers and seeing how people played their games, reading the strategy articles and asking the questions is a good way for people to improve.

I don't think you need to win to have an enjoyable game. For example, my first ever deity game was a Game Of The Month, and I was pleased that I lost via space race. Incidentally, my first ever deity win was also a Game Of The Month!

If you don't want to play this month, at least have a read through the spoilers and see how other people fared, and how they went about doing things. And come back next month when we play at a lower level.

 

[denyd]

It would be nice if one game was high and one low in difficulty each month, but the challenge is also nice.

I'd like it if one of the games was on a smaller map. That would make it easier to play both games each month.

 

[ainwood]

[rant]
To be true - you don't predict it, you just tell that here to use a very impolite way to ask for a lower difficulty level. Why not simply post: Please make the next Cotm not deity, but regent or monarch? Would be totally acceptable I guess.
[/rant]

I don't think its that impolite - we do have a tendancy to build-up the difficulty levels month by month; its just a matter of where the peak is. This time the peak stopped at 'demigod'.

Remember - I have to play test these games myself, and if I was going to make it deity, I'd have probably given you (me ) a better starting location!

 

[Civgeek]

I'd encourage anybody to try the higher level COTMs; even if you get your butt-kicked by the AI, you will learn how to play at a higher level if you focus on improving your game. I only started at COTM 01 but didn't finish in time to submit. However, just reading people's strategies and advice and seeing how other players modify their game as they move up in difficulty level already has me moving up from Monarch to Emperor in any SP game I play. I just find the challange of knowing I can lose if I don't think about what I'm doing, combined with the belief I might actually win if I do think about things, make the game much more interesting than trying to beat my old high score on a lower level.

 

[Mauer]

It's not whether or not you win or lose. Or even if you have fun playing. I think it is about actually finding time to finish, win or lose.

@King Albert- would you believe that I felt the same way as you, I just didn't say anything. My first game was gotm 30. I finished it and had fun, although I lost at monarch level. Gotm 31 I finished and actually won at emperor level. Not with a top 10 finish, but I won .

 

[Akane]

King Albert:

I would add my voice as well as one who has experienced what you're talking about now. Of course, the object of playing a game is to have fun with it. And to have fun with COTM/GOTM, you must bring humility to the table as well as a healthy learning curve. In the current COTM (3-Byz), there is a high probability that I will lose. But by looking through what others have done, I can analyze my game as well and figure out whether or not there was anything I could have done to prevent my loss and actually walk away with a win.

Another thread you may want to look over is Zerksee's thread on winning when behind. It was an inspiration to myself to see that yes, victory can be snatched from the jaws of defeat. And if I can ever experience a game like that, I know that I would be happy for a while to come.

Besides, to apply this to every game... I'm not supposed to spoil on this most recent COTM game, so I'll do my best... anyway, once you hit new eras different things are possible. You may find the right combination of moves in the Industrial Age that worked where those lack of moves in the Middle Ages did not. And always remember that if you manage it right, it is not every AI against you, but it is numerous AIs and you all against each other. As a Civ player, this was the hardest obstacle for me to overcome, and I still have problems reconciling myself to this fact. The Civ that may be attacking you now might be rubbing yet another Civ the wrong way. I had more than a couple games above Monarch where one Civ marched across my territory in order to attack another Civ (instead of me! Yay!). Guess who gets to benefit by being in the middle, offering RoPs and building settlers for depopulated areas.

Point of this whole post... games are never over until they are over, you always have a chance, and win or lose if you enjoy looking through your game and figuring out ways to improve for the next game, COTM/GOTM is where you should do it. If you play more for the thrill of killing others and being king, it is definitely okay to do so as well. Just make sure you know what you want to get out of the game (or even COTM/GOTM), and tailor your activities accordingly.
[/longwindedness until next post...]

 

[Symphony D.]

I have to agree with Akane and -0blivion-. I estimate myself at being perhaps a Monarch player, maybe Emperor with a little luck. I thought I was competing evenly with the AI for a time in COTM3, until my standard approaches failed - catastrophically. I was inventing whole new curse words to hurl at the AI. But as I sat back and analyzed why happened did, and why I found myself in the bind I was in, I realized I could get out of it with a little creative thinking.

This COTM has, quite honestly, through sheer difficulty, forced me to innovate in my play-style to survive, and has taught me a trick or two in the process. I'd give my odds of winning it maybe a 50-50 chance depending on whether my third great attack goes down in flames as badly as the last two, and if it doesn't work whether I survive or not.

I would like to win, but even if I don't, I've learned a few things I otherwise wouldn't have, and I'm glad that I played.

 

[KingAlbert]

thx to everybody for their replies and encouragement.

I spend the entire day reflecting on how I tend to play CIV3 and figured out that my current playstyle is to monotome (almost always Greeks, always huge map, always builder strategy...) and that I need to learn A LOT of playing CIV3.

However I feel that by sticking to the G/COTM rules (no reloading etc) I miss valuable lessons. I believe that by reloading after a critical mistake one can learn more then by commiting one mistake and paying for it during the entire game. Hence I decided that whenever a difficulty level is too high for me (as in the case of COTM03) I won't submit the game in order to be free to reload and be more relax on the rules.

I'll be reading the spoilers with much interest and if one month a COTM is on regent level again, I will be able to compete with the better players.

 

[leif erikson]

Some of us have been playing here for a long while and still have trouble winning. Besides reading the threads, you might want to play a non-competitive shadow game where you play an age and then read the thread and see how you did by comparison. That is how I started. I could not submit the game, but I could replay portions of it to see what others did to improve my performance.

During this time, we also had the QSC write-ups we could download. These were very helpful in learning and, hopefully, will be back again soon. The QSC's are available through GOTM 20 and there are some great games back in the GOTM 15 to 20 time that are still available for download. You can try them and compare yourself against SirPleb, good luck!!!!

I've been playing here for 18 months and my SGOTM partners can attest to my need to learn a lot more.

 

[alamo]

Keep in mind that the GOTM designers are faced with a fairly diverse crowd of excellent players. Sometimes a very difficult GOTM is necessary to spread out the top of the field.

I struggled with the harder GOTMs and was frustrated for the effort about a year ago. I didn't play for several months.

This last GOTM I simply played it on the edge and quit when it clearly wasn't good enough.

For sure there can be benefits to suffering a humiliating defeat, but for my recreation time I prefer to not learn by hard knocks. Any motivated player can push themselves to get better without a hard smack in the face.

I used to struggle at Reagent but now I can almost always win a random Monarch game. Part of that is from the GOTM's, but most of it is just learning to handle the details of the game.

My recommendation for any frustrated GOTM'er is to go ahead and start the game, but don't hesitate to stop playing if you're not enjoying it. Just play your own game or join a sucession game until the next GOTM.

 

[ainwood]

However I feel that by sticking to the G/COTM rules (no reloading etc) I miss valuable lessons. I believe that by reloading after a critical mistake one can learn more then by commiting one mistake and paying for it during the entire game. Hence I decided that whenever a difficulty level is too high for me (as in the case of COTM03) I won't submit the game in order to be free to reload and be more relax on the rules.

I'll be reading the spoilers with much interest and if one month a COTM is on regent level again, I will be able to compete with the better players.

Well, I'm glad you're going to try it anyway and keep within the spirit of the competition. Look forward to seeing a submission from you next COTM.

 

[Sandman2003]

Remember - I have to play test these games myself, and if I was going to make it deity, I'd have probably given you (me ) a better starting location!

Do you really think that Deity is that much harder than Demigod? Personally, as someone who has only recently started trying solo games at Demigod/Deity level, I don't think there is that much difference. This is mainly because with the same settler/worker bonus at the start, you have a similar exponential growth curve from both to contend with. Whilst Deity is harder, if given the choice of Demigod with a crappy start, or Deity with a great start, I would opt for the Deity game. (I haven't actually looked at COTM03 yet to know just how 'crappy' the start really is).

 

[Mauer]

Well, I have to add that demi is a tad bit out of my league considering the results I have achieved so far. I'm not complaining, guess I have to wait untill next month or gotm34 to get my GPR up . I'm not exactly sure what lesson I learned from this demi foray, other than I will feel more comfortable at emperor even.
EDIT:I have a suggestion, not for democratic reasons, but rather out of curiosity. Maybe we could have a poll, and ask what is the highest level of play you have won at. Just an idea.

 

[zagnut]

I would never have become a Deity level player without the GOTM. I would not have pushed myself out of my comfort zone. The only way to learn this game is to accept the challenge and play Deity. If you play by yourself and are losing, the tendency is to quit. The beauty of the GOTM is that you get lots of feedback from other players who can show you ways you never would have thought of to beat the AI.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Well, I play sgotm with Leif and I can attest that he's not such a bad player that he seems to think

I enjoy a stab at the higher difficulties. I seldom submit on higher difficulties, but that's because I've found that I, personally, learn a lot more from trying again and again on the same map until I get the opening moves right (I like to 'pretend' that I don't have prior knowledge). That makes me ineligable to submit the months that I do this, but it's moved me from a sub-regent player to an emperor player.
We all have our ways to learn, so try to play and submit, or try my approach. But you'll never find a better, friendlier environment to learn civ than the gotm (oh, forgot the sgotms ).

 

[Longasc]

Hi, the Conquest class easily offsets difficulty.

Please take the current GOTM as an Example:
Archipelago. Demigod. Conquest class bonus extra worker, extra settler.

I do not want to spoil, but considering some facts I did not mention, it is NO PROBLEM to win for a Monarch class player!

Ainwood gave a good starting position and made sure the AI does not have the chance to overrun you if you play REALLY bad!

Really, I tested it - will not participate in this GOTM as I scouted, was my first venture into GOTM.

But I will participate next month, and I say:

Perhaps even a Regent level player could win this - or at least finish off by histograph or play quite a long time.

So the Demigod in this game was tuned down quite a lot in the Conquest class. The AI advantage of a starting settler is offset by the extra settler.


I favor games around Emperor level for normal, Monarch level for Conquest class. The Byzantine GOTM is Demigod, but really... in Conquest class, it is perhaps Monarch-Emperor.

Monarch-Emperor is a reasonable level IMO. Below - uninteresting for experts, higher... many players will lose in frustration.

It is difficult to please everyone, but I appreciate the Conquest class, it really helps and addresses these problems IMO.

 

[Moonsinger]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.
First and foremost, the next COTM game won't be deity!

It is a difficult balance to strike, because for those player that don't want to play because the level is too high; there will also be some who don't want to play because its too easy.

Not me! I'm still playing Chieftain from time to time. My goal is to take out Darkness's top Chieftain score some day.