Gotm20-Spain Pregame Discussion

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Smirk
I'm thinking I may find some good use for the UU in a counter-offensive role, they should fair reasonably well in attacking knights and other offensive units, and in great number (or lucky retreats) could take out the few defensive units the AI usually moves with. Coupled with their movement, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all countering any AI offensive. However a cost of 70 shields seems a bit extreme, for a explorer/swordsman.
Considering the great length they can move, and the retreat ability, they could also serve as an early strike role, and then a full retreat back to your cities to heal up.

By the time we get our UU, I don't think there will be any knights left for us to fight. Since this is a Deity level, if anyone is backward in tech, it's going to be us, not them.

My thinking is that if I put my UUs into an army of three at full health, I could move them anywhere inside the AI empire to pillage resources without worrying about the AI attacking them. For some reasons, the army has always been the least attractive target in the AI's point of view.

 

[Bolan Longpants]

For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ht=Flood+plains

3.2% chance (each turn) for each city that has at least 1 floodplain tile being worked, seems to be the analysis. Yes, disease hits on back-to-back turns, even if on the second turn you take all citizens off of the floodplain tiles. If you are at size 2 when disease hits the first time, you will only lose 1 citizen (unless you gained a citizen on the same turn-like by joining a worker or something), because disease can't hit a size 1 town.

Somehow I have the feeling disease also depends on difficulty level. I'm playing a PBEM 1.14 game right now and I have four cities on floodplains for a long time. I didn't encounter any diseases yet up until now. Statistically this doesn't make sense unless chances of disease also depends on difficulty level because the game is set up at chieftain. The thread mentioned above doesn't say anything about difficulty level. Why do my citizens become sick when I play deity but are in perfect health during chieftain.

 

[CdB]

Originally posted by Qitai
After the above, the key will be using a sucide galley for the sea merchant middleman trading. At 55% H2O, it may not even be necessary for a sucide galley. Exploring the high seas will be critical for tech catchup.

What strategy are you using with suicide galleys? In my last GOTM, I lost 5 galleys in rows to squids or fog before without reaching anything. After, I just stopped because I found it was too costly (production wise) and not rewarding.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

That is definitely not true (at least not for my European 1.14 PTW). I got disease in GOTM#19 even after the discovery of Ecology! (But before having Sanitation.)

 

[Qitai]

Did you attack the fog??!! Fog has 1 defense and is as good as any squid. Why risk? It is probably better to move around them. Cracker isn't that evil to wrapping the entire continent in fog (Maybe he will consider doing that now when he sees this post).
I lost one or two galley to squid too in the last GOTM. But that shouldn't stop you if the stake is numerous free tech advancement and potentially $$.

For sucide galley attempt, I would suggest this.
(1) Don't rush into sucide. Survey the sea first (visually and moving the galley around) and decide a good launching point base on the map structure taking fog into consideration. In the last GOTM, obviously the fog on the east shore is there intentionally - I send the galley west instead. Also, sometimes land maybe connected by sea and you do not even need to sucide.

(2) Be a coward. Fled from squid and wait if you can. The galley is build to make contact or ferry troop, not fight (And for me, galley block/slowdown). Fighting is for frigates/ironclads and later.....

(3) If on the second move of your galley you see a squid, fortified (assuming you are on coast) and pray. Remember to unfortified the next turn if your prayers are heard.

(4) Listen to Sir Pleb. He knows best.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by cracker
If all of you only knew the true level of self control and discipline that it takes to sit back and say nothing during many of these pregame conversations then I think that some of you would have a different perception of the true challenge of the map maker staff role.

The problem becomes that I end up chewing on the back of my finger because I have something to say but I have to wait for someone (or someones) else to arrive at the conclusions and observations that I would like to make. In some ways it is like a huge version of Wheel of Civ Fortune and I have to just wait and see if Vanna, Pat, and the contestant from EastAnywheresville can figure out which letter to turn next if the lights happen to not be giving specific clues.

You all fascinate me!!

So far we have not paid any attention to Spain's history or real-world geography.

So first, I expect more than one river.

Second, looking at the hill n/nw, that seems like a landbridge (Gibraltar?) to me between two bodies of water. Who will be at the other side? Lots of Barbarians perhaps (Moors, or Picts posing as Moors)?
There to prevent easy contact?

Edit: or maybe Arabia is already in this game.

And who will be our neighbours? I'm counting on Rome, Celts, Carthage, France, England, Vikings. And another continent only reachable with ocean travel where Aztecs, Americans and Iroquois can be found. Or perhaps it IS reachable earlier if we go past Viking land.

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
My thinking is that if I put my UUs into an army of three at full health, I could move them anywhere inside the AI empire to pillage resources without worrying about the AI attacking them. For some reasons, the army has always been the least attractive target in the AI's point of view.

That's a great idea. I have tested the AI policy to let armies be in the past (you mentioned it some time ago) and it holds. It seems that the AI will attack only if the chances to win are reasonable. Since armies have lots of hitpoints the AI would rarely attack them when at full strength.

 

[CdB]

Originally posted by Ribannah
So far we have not paid any attention to Spain's history or real-world geography.

I would not say that last GOTM was really real-world geography. So I would not wander to much in that directions. As said by Cracker the map seemed to have been generated by Civ3 map generator (Goody Hut locations for this map game were randomly generated by the Civ3 map generator).

It was also partially historical (role of the Romans is still a quizz to me in last GOTM) but all civs are linked to Spain looking at history. SO I suspect any bet is good . To my humble opinion least likely opponents are Japan and to some extend India & China.

 

[Ribannah]

As for the role of the Romans in GOTM#19: the were big when the Ottomans were born, then stagnant and surpassed, and allowed to grow again later (as Venice? - hence the maritime focus). Pretty well thought out IMHO.

I would be really neat if we could play the historic role of passing on tech from Rome / Arabia to the new powers France / England (/Germany?). For a profit, of course.

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

I find those values pretty suspect, I would expect at least a little variance between two completely separate cases, unless they were very extensive, its still random after all (1). But the test I just ran gets very different results *and* has more tests.

That bug does still exist in PTW 1.21, which was deeply confusing to me when I first started testing this, I got no deaths, but as soon as I would work a jungle I got some as expected. (The first test I ran thru ~200 turns without a single flood plain death using 8 citizens in one city.)


For those mentioning their experience, you could either be talking about *jungle* disease which stays around, or just remembering from before you got engineering. I'm not 100% sure on the engineering part, since I was starting in middle age I don't recall which techs I researched or any at all, but I got no deaths from flood plain disease, none, this is with 8 citizens on the plains and upwards of 200 turns.
Due the the nature of what I am saying, I'll merely state that this is pretty convincing to me, but not truth. If you can create and save a game where you got flood plain disease after MA and/or engineering I'd like to see it. Since the disease kills a turn later you can save any game after you get flood plain disease and as long as you aren't also working jungles it should be easy to interpret.




Note 1
There could be a balancing effect, per civ to not exceed say 3.2%, so over time all disease approaches 3.2%. My tests were independant single turn tests so wouldn't find anything like that.

 

[Renata]

The time it happened to me, it was a size 2 city (so only one turn of disease). The two citizens had both been pulled off the floodplain tiles for some extra shields, and the city itself was not built on a floodplain. No jungle either in the city radius; I checked, because I was so surprised.

Your results do sound fairly convincing, though, and I don't have a save to prove what happened.

Renata

 

[Dislak]

If we are looking at what might happen to use in a historical content, think about this for a sec.

Spain was once in charge of the greatest navy fleet ever. Something tells me that this might become a factor, only to see if we get crushed once again by the English. I would love to have a rematch with the Spanish Armada again.

Possibly the Turks/Arabs as suggested before?? They did control the lower half of the Iberian Pennisula once so maybe they are potential neighbors.

Since the Spanish were so influential in conquering the New World, maybe we will experience a new continent with the Aztecs and Iriqous (or possible a differently named Civ). My guess (and only a guess of course ) is that these Civs would be well below us in techs, allowing us to either:

1. Trade with them to gain huge amounts of cash and show them what good Christian people we are

2. or we could just destroy them without any cause.

That's my intake, any thoughts?

 

[ltcoljt]

A couple of comments, gripes really.

This game reminds me of one of my chief complaints with Civ3, the fact that there is no "age of sail" in the darn game. Likewise, the Spanish UU, significant in history, may not play any realistic role in the game.

The other thing I hate is the ritual "peer under the fog" exercise, which I had hoped Cracker would eliminate.

Rib and Dislak speak to the history of Spain, yes indeed this would be the perfect game for a fully hand made map enabling us to compete for the Conquista of the New World with the English and French. We won't get that but I do expect some element in the game that will favor those who go to sea and stubbornly press forward in the spirit of Columbus.

Suicide galleys here I come.

Also, we might see some interesting mountain ranges and volcanos again.

 

[serttech2003]

I've done a little playing around with the Spanish recently and here is what I found out about the UU. Its a good unit to play "yo-yo the AI" with. Since the AI tends to spread out its cities (at least in my games) more than non-AI players, if you cut enough roads, you can jerk their units around chasing the UU. BUT, if they get caught, by the time you get them (esp on the higher levels) they die pretty quickly. I once cut access to all resources and then lost 13 UU on the next turn as the AI counter attacked, WW kicked in pretty good after that. I never thought of Moonsinger's UU army. THat might be enough to have them surviv the first AI counterattack.

 

[Dislak]

ltcoljt-

I agree without about the whole "age of sail". It just never seems to be stressed that you should build boats at all. I personally would love to just build a huge navy and go around owning everything but that just wouldn't be possible or helpful. Sigh...oh well, such is life.

About the fog thing, I've only attempted the GOTM once and this is my first time browsing the forums so it is nice to see ideas on where to build my first town. From there, i'll probably just hope for survival. I'll probably be just like the real Spanish. Gain some land, lose it all and cling to my tiny penisula, hoping for the best.

 

[Ricardo]

I've only played one other GOTM and I didnt really follow the pregame discussion that time. It is really fascinating to see everyones guesses at what lies in the different directions of the starting location.

thinking about the historical aspect of the game, I am wondering if there will be a "new world" somewhere on the map. Some piece of land somewhere with no civs on it but full of resources that we will all race too and fight for control over.

I think for my first city I will move a worker to the sw and see what is there first in hopes that to the S or SW is a good spot for a nice settler factory. My second city will probably be on top of the hillto the east of the starting position.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by serttech2003
I never thought of Moonsinger's UU army. THat might be enough to have them surviv the first AI counterattack.

As Yndy and I were saying, the AI wouldn't dare attacking the army unless at least one of its unit (individually) thinks that it can win or that it can at least get the army red-lined. The AI units aren't much of a team player and they are definitely not thinking collectively. Each of their units would think only for itself to determine whether or not to attack or not to attack. As human players, we all know that we can sacrifice one of our units to reduce the army hitpoint so that another unit can go for the kill; therefore, we can destroy the AI army without much of a problem. Too bad the AI doesn't think like that. By keeping our army at full health all the time, our army is safe from the AI counterattack for almost like 'eternity'; therefore, our army will have a great chance of surviving forever.

In a way, this technique seems like an exploit because we are exploiting the AI stupidity here. Since there hasn't been any objection from you guys or from Cracker about using this technique, I think I may give it a shot to see what happen.

Hint: In order to beat an adversary of greater power, we must try to think like our adversary. In this case, what would we do if we are the AI?

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
The other thing I hate is the ritual "peer under the fog" exercise, which I had hoped Cracker would eliminate.

I think we agian need to look at this process from a balanced and informed viewpoint.

Some people really enjoy the puizzle and the hunt. Other people could care less. Both perspectives are allowable and we should not do things that actively diminish one for the benefit of the other.

By presenting this info in the Pre-game discussion we basically give everyone access to the same information and give them a chance to make an informed decision based on the best information available. Some players are much better at this than others and the natural tendency will be to have varying levels of satisfaction with the level to which we as individuals succeed in these areas.

I would like to see us (Lee and ltcoljt) not gripe too much about what people try to see from the pregame views because in the big picture, the careful preconsideration of the opening moves and potential trade offs is probably the number one thing that can help less expereinced players to get a little more out of the game.

Don't obsess about it, but do take some of these observations and comments as a revelation of the diversity of perspectives and skills that you find among your peers. Rest assured that for every player who participates here and uses the information to bolster their opening play choices, there will be at least that many other players who will charge ahead into the fray with a random assortment of play choices the will boggle and amaze you.

This pregame discussion can help you a great deal in the game, but on its own it is a sort of game-withiin-the-game feature that a many players and spectators find fascinating all in a self contained way.

 

[Romulus]

RE: building on the hills...what is the point? I know its a good defensive tactic, but if you let anyone (including barbs) into the CORE of your empire (the capital) you're in trouble anyways! Hill defense bonus won't help you! )

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Romulus
RE: building on the hills...what is the point? I know its a good defensive tactic, but if you let anyone (including barbs) into the CORE of your empire (the capital) you're in trouble anyways! Hill defense bonus won't help you! )

You're doing very well at Deity level if you can get enough units out early on to head off all incursions by barbs during the first 30 or so turns, when you are likely to have only one or two cities. There's no core then - only a vulnerable frontier. Once you have a core and ring of half a dozen cities or so the AI has pretty much eliminated barbs from the map in my, admittedly limited, experience.