GR18-AWM Genocide Variant vs 30 Civs.

[vmxa]

One question, Chonju is building a temple? It is the one on the end of the string of mountains, closest to the Vikes. It is size 2 and no growth. A larger border will not change the speed of the units as we have seen all 1 move units anyway.

I would prefer another cat there, but will not do any thing now.

 

[markh]

One question, Chonju is building a temple? It is the one on the end of the string of mountains, closest to the Vikes. It is size 2 and no growth. A larger border will not change the speed of the units as we have seen all 1 move units anyway.

I would prefer another cat there, but will not do any thing now.

S..t. Didn't notice that. My fault. Of course a cat is of more use there.

 

[vmxa]

Thanks for the reply mark. I am finishing the first turn, so it not a problem. No fault either, it is easy to over look things in these games. The lack of continuity does it and the pressure at this stage.

Not like others where you lose a fringe town, no big deal.

 

[ThERat]

Don't sell any walls yet, there is no need. Science is now almost at 40% as we expand it would only get better. Science can also be adjusted anyway.

The temple was my mistake as I felt expanded borders in the south would give us more room the breathe as Vikings would have to retreat further back after bombardment.

As for Suwon, it was just unfortunate that our army was redlined and had to heal somewhere else when the GS horde struck. 4 defenders were eaten up easily. Now, the front looks better and vmxa might be able to plant a few more cities. Expansion is really key here, it drives the enemy further back frees our core from pressure and gives us more armies which are essential as well.

One more thing, I don't really fancy the close settling of towns as we have been forced this game. Once we have more room, I strongly suggest to abandon some cities there to improve other cities. So, we should mark some cities as temp towns (rename them) and remember not to build infrastructure in them.

 

[vmxa]

I agree with all of that. I have not sold any walls. I have been going slowly as I seem to have an infection on the graph behind my ear.

I had an operation there 10 or so days back and I thought I was good, but it is turning red and hurts. Sure signs of infection and I cannot get any of the docs to tell me what I need to do.

So I am do short session. So far not real bad. Here is an update.

 

[vmxa]

Pre:
nothing

IT:
Cheju is attacked by 4 Ottoman swords and a 2HP one kills a spear (3-1).
This is worse than it sounds as we have 7 Ottoman units next to it and it is down to 1 spear and a 1/5 horse.

Vikes hit Iron city and die (4-1).
Vikes and Spain drop a spear each on Pusan.
I see Hittite sword kill Num and then a Num kills the sword, but Hittites send a spear next to Chinje. Glad they are not showing up with 3 man chars yet.
[4-1]

820AD:
We are now -5gpt with 11 in the bank. I think we need to take action on that this turn or we could face disbandments next turn.
Cats 2 for 3 on Otto spear at Sumeriwon.
Army kills spear. I used it as no one can reach the town right now and I want as many dead as I can get (1-0).
Ouch cats go 1 for 4 on Otto units at Chenju.
Move the sword covering the workers into Chenju.
I moved two workers to the hill being worked by In'chon.
2 of the workers at Desert road the tile, but no one can go to any of the tiles forward as there are GS units that can reach any of them.
Cats at Wosan go 1 for 2 on Sumer archers.
Sword kills one of the archers and goes elite (2-0).
4/5* horse kills the other (3-0).
Worthless cats at Some go 0 for 4.
4/5 sword kills Dutch sword there (4-0).
3/5 horse retreats from spear, but does take a point off.
2nd kills sword and the spear (6-0).
Sword kills JT goes red at Nampo (7-0).
Cats go 2 for 2 at Hyangsan on Hittite spear.
Cats at Chinje go 6 for 9 on 5 units.
Cats at Taegu 1 for 2. Fort army to heal.
4th kills Hittite spear (8-0).
Desperate times, so I use eSword to kill yellow JT now 3/5 (9-0).
The only unit that I can see that can attack is another 2HP JT, so I risk it.
Move horse from Taejon to Desert as it is facing a GS and has only a sword.
I sure wish we had about 4 or 5 more horses to kill these injured units.
Sword kills Spanish spear at Pusan (10-0).
Sword kills the Vike spear there (11-0).
I have to make a specialist as the town is empty now.
I heard from Mark, so I switch the temple. Several items to switch to, but I went with a horse. The reason is we had enough shields to finish a 30 shield unit.
We have 4 cats here, so I figure I can send the horse back to MP some place and maybe it will get a chance to get vet status, if not cheap MP.
Cats there go 1 for 4, thanks.
Workers moved to Haeju to mine the tile used by Chinje.
4th kills another JT (12-0).
Bite the bullet and lower research to 30%, was 40%.
[12-0]

IBT:
GS hits Desert and sword kills him (1-0).
Wosan has Sumer archer attack (2-0).
Taegu gets hit by Spanish unit and it dropped army to red (3-0).
More sweat as Spanish archer hits the army and it look like it is 2 HP left (4-0).
Yet another archer, but 3rd kills it and is safe for now (5-0).
I though it was lights out.

Ottoman hit Cheju, but it was only 2 units. I may have missed one, but anyway we lose no units (7-0).
Vikes sword attacks Conju (8-0).
Very lucky, IBT. Well, sort of anyway. I saw about 5 or 6 GS come either in our land or near it.
Vikes land a sword at Paegam.
I noticed no one attacked the yellow Num.
I also seen 5 more Mayan units back into the fog?
[20-0]

830AD:
Sword kills the Vike sword at Paegam (1-0).
Put citizen back on the tile to prevent starving.
Cats 2/4 redline Vike at Chonju.
Cats at Iron go 2 for 2.
Cats go 2 for 5 at Cheju, not good as they now had 10 units there.
Cats go 2 for 4 at Hyang.
Sword retreats the GS.
Sword at Taejon kills it, leave town empty for now (1-0).
Cats at Wosan go 2 for 2 and sword finishes the GS (2-0).
Cats go 3 for 4 at Some.
Cats at Chirje go 6 for 7 and red 2 vet swords.
Cats go 2 for 2 at Taeju.
4/5 sword goes red, but kills the GS at Some (3-0).
4/5 sword kills Sumer archer at Hyang (4-0).
4/5* horse kills Sumer archer (5-0).
2nd kills the GS at Some (6-0).
3/3 horse kills red Vike sword (7-0).
1st kills Vike spear/combo and I disband two slaves (8-0).

Question, I presume we are not allowed to disband for shields, true?

2nd kills Zulu sword (9-0).
Moved 5 pairs of workers to 4 unroaded tiles. Two sets of 3.
Moved 5th to Cheju and add 3rd sword.
Move pop at Chonju to feed the place.
I see we do not have Map, so I cannot switch the temple in Kaesong to a harbor. We could use the extra gold.
Fix Hyang as intruders move pop off of tiles.
Wonsan same, moved off BG with no road to a mined one.
Desert move off of flood to irrigated plain to get extra shield.
Move a spear from Hyangsan to Taej to prevent riot, till MP gets back.
Moved spear from Wonsan to Pyongyang same reason.
[29-0]

IBT:
I see some GS units move back into the fog at Chirje.
Ottoman do not want to attack at Cheju with the army there.
Spain lands a spear at Paegam.

 

[vmxa]

840AD:
Cats go 4 for 5 at Cheju.
Cats go 1 for 5 at Sumeriwon.
Cats go 2 for 2 at Iron.
Cats go 3 for 5 at Chonju.
Cats go 2 for 4 at Hyangsan.
Cat pings spear at Paegam.
Sword kills it, move pop (1-0).
Sword at Desert kills Otto spear (2-0).
Cats at wosan 1 for 2.
Cats go 2 for 4 at some.
Cats go 5 for 7 at Chinje.
Sword kill Zulu 2/4 sword, is red now (3-0).
eHorse kills Zulu archer (4-0).
Sword kills Vike sword at Iron, goes red (5-0).
1st kills another Vike sword and covers the iron (6-0).
eSword kills Otto sword (7-0).
5th takes a beating killing a wounded Otto sword (8-0).
5th kills Otto spear and is red, but on hill with only a spear and a wounded sword close(9-0).
eSword kills Vike 2/4 sword and is red (10-0).
3/5* horse kills archer (11-0).
2nd kills Zulu sword, no Zulu in sight now (12-0).
Found another cat at Chinje ping sword.
4th kills Mayan sword (13-0).
3rd kills Spanish spear (14-0). Leaves town empty for now.
[43-0]

IBT:
Ok I stop right after the ibt ran and by the time I got back to the game, I forgot what, if anything occurred. I do know that 5 GS and 3 JT and a Num arrived at Chinje.
I do not recall any battles.

850AD:
Cats go 6 for 7 at Chinje, thank you.
Cats go 3 for at Some, 2 on an MDI.
Cats go 1 for 3 at Taeju.
Cats go 4 for 5 at Cheju.
I even send the 5th against Otto sword, but it retreats after taking off 1HP.
Sword at Desert kills Otto sword (1-0).
Cats go 2 for 2 at Taegu.
3rd kills that spear (2-0).
Move spear from Haeju to Chinje.
4th kills 2 GS (4-0).
Ping Spanish galley by Paegam.
2nd kills Mayan MDI and Dutch sword (6-0).
Cats from Wosan go 1 for 2.
eSword kills Sumer archer (7-0).
Sword kills Sumer archer (near Some both) (8-0).
Cats go 2 for 2 at Iron.
Cats go 0 for 4 at Chonju.
1st kills Vike sword (9-0).
3/5 sword kills GS at Chinje (10-0).
Horse kills Sumer spear at Tae and goes elite (11-0).
I did not realize there was an archer under it or I may have left it alone.
Now the 5/5 is exposed to the archer, should be ok though.
4/5 horse kills Otto sword and finally I get a leader. I have no idea how many E kills over the last 3 turn sets, but a bunch. (12-0)
I send the leader to Seoul. I think after the sword is done, making a Lib with it, rather than sit on it. Wish we had currency for a market.
We have 21 cities. We have the settlers, but no safe place to found right now.
[55-0]

Have not made up my mind on the leader yet. We may be able to expand, but we need 3 more towns. That is a bunch.

 

[Greebley]

Don't worry about taking shorter turns. This game calls for it. I also hope your ear/health things works out ok!

I think expansion mostly involves taking an army offline from guarding an existing city and guard workers roading and then settler placement. If you have huge stacks next to existing cities like you describe there is little you can do, but enemies often come in waves and there are pauses on some border. We just need to be ready to grab opportunities and expand. Getting units to retreat rather than kill them is another way to expand. You let units get away to come back but get a town. I think the instinct is to try to not let units get away, but it is worth it if a town and pushing back the borders is the result. The nice thing is that the units now travel to the farther border to heal and so are out of action longer. Best to alternate this with unit killing as you don't want too many to build up.

GL Mumpulus. See if you can get us move us toward 24 cities/6 armies. One or two towns a player turn and we will get there.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP - Out until Aug 15th
markh
ThERat
vxma - Just Played
Mumpulus - Up

 

[vmxa]

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR18_AD860.SAV

 

[vmxa]

IBT:
Sumer archer did retreat the horse. Otto sword killed sword at desert and it is facing 7 Ottoman swords, one 5/5 and 2 dutch units. It has a 1/4 sword and a 3/3 horse. not good.
(0-1-1)
Three Vike swords attack Chonju and die (3-1-1).
[58-1]

860AD:
9 gold with -5gpt now. 10 civs and they are now getting cities of decent size with structures, so they can make replacement units fairly quick.

I think I screwed up when I put the army in Cheju as they were coming there and losing a couple and pull the others back. I was worried the place would not hold with out it and even if it had, we would have lost units we could not replace right away.

Now I am considering abandoning to save the units at Desert. Either way it will be a a big problem.
eHorse kills Dutch spear (1-0).
eSword kills GS (2-0).
Sword kills Num (3-0).
5/5* horse kills Dutch spear (4-0).
3/5 sword kills JT (5-0).
3rd kills Spanish spear (6-0).
3/3 horse kills Sumer archer, second win still no promo (7-0).

I cannot see any way to save Desert, so I move out. If we had roads to Desert, I may be able to have held it. Probably not as there are 8 more Otto units just past it. The problem is now how to stop those units from doing more harm?

The two closest armies are either red or yellow right now.
Sword kills Hitt sword (8-0).
[66-1]

 

[vmxa]

Greebley, no doubt we need an army to try to hold a new town. That is if we can free one up. This is hard as we have 2 move armies and only 4. They are spread out, with none in good shape, except the one on the Iron.

I have moved some units up with a settler to rebuild, but it needs cats to aid the fighting.

Moving in the North is dangerous as we have GS units and lots of culture to deal with. I think one of my weakness is wanting to expand carefully.

 

[Greebley]

We have 5 armies I think. Your points are valid though. I agree the GS make epansion much harder. I think that is the main reason our expansion has mostly been to the south and to the far west away from the GS. I also don't think we can expand continuously. Some turns are just too heavy. I think there will be lighter turns on some fronts, which is what to watch for. Either that or we will get overwhelmed. I haven't played recently so haven't seen the enemy stacks.

Did we decide what tech to go for next? I would vote for Currency or Construction despite the high cost of the associated building and tech.

 

[ThERat]

currency should be our next tech, then construction and hopefully we get feudalism as free tech

markets will help at the moment, we can always use MGL's if we can't form armies to rush a market

 

[Mumpulus]

Got it. I'm afraid turn-around from me won't be that quick. I'll try to give the game back Tuesday evening (48 hrs from now).

I'll read previous reports more carefully tomorrow, but I think I agree with what's been said: currency, then construction for tech, and expand

 

[Greebley]

There is time to play in this game due to its size - up to 5 days if you want it. I think 3 or 4 is perfectly reasonable at this point so don't feel you need to keep it under 48 hours.

5 turns in these huge games can be twice as much work as normal 10 in a regular game.

 

[Mumpulus]

I woke up early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep, so I played turns 0 and 1. The assessment vmxa made on Desertification was correct: it couldn't be saved, so I abandoned it.

I took a look at the kill ratios vmxa got so for: [8-1], [24-2], [64-1], and [66-1] for a grand total of [162-5]. That's quite amazing. Clearly there is some careful play behind this. In fact, when I read this:

Desperate times, so I use eSword to kill yellow JT now 3/5

I'm guessing it is extremely careful play. Rat lost 13 units in his last set if I counted correctly (over 10 turns), markh lost 6 in his set before that (5 turns), Greebley 5 (or 6 or 7 maybe) (6 turns), and I lost 14 (10 turns). We each lost more units in one set than vmxa in all his sets combined.

One consequence is that vmxa doesn't expand that much, as he indicates himself. But because of his excellent kill ratio, my feeling during those 1.5 turns I played so far is that there are less enemy units and more units for me to play with. So I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to garner some s this time.

And just as a little teaser to end with: I found an interesting settling spot

 

[markh]

I took a look at the kill ratios vmxa got so for: [8-1], [24-2], [64-1], and [66-1] for a grand total of [162-5]. That's quite amazing. Clearly there is some careful play behind this. I'm guessing it is extremely careful play. Rat lost 13 units in his last set if I counted correctly (over 10 turns), markh lost 6 in his set before that (5 turns), Greebley 5 (or 6 or 7 maybe) (6 turns), and I lost 14 (10 turns). We each lost more units in one set than vmxa in all his sets combined.

Sometimes it is inevitable and there is not much you can do. In my last set I lost 4 of the 6 units on city defense. Especially in this game it is hardly possible to avoid AIs attacking your cities.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, everyone has different strengths that make SG play stronger than single games. Alternating growth with good kill ratios allows us to grow while still keeping unit counts high. It works out quite well actually.

 

[vmxa]

Yeah we may have 5 armies and we have a leader with nothing to do.

Mumpulus that must be a mistake on my part. Esword is not a risk, it either had to be 3/5 to start and lost no points or it was another unit. I must have logged it wrong. As you can see I attack with some weaker units a few times.
I even used a spear once or twice this game.

As Mark said, right now we can kill on offense very well with armies and cats, but defense is a coin flip. I fear them attacking with MDI and Knights soon and us without Pikes.

That will make ratios go into the toilet. Killing Knights with swords will not work at a high rate either.

 

[Mumpulus]

To what degree is scrolling ahead and changing things allowed? I haven't used it in this game, but I could have, so I just would like to know for future reference.

• Scrolling ahead to fix riots is generally accepted
• Scrolling ahead to fix MM after an enemy unit occupies a tile, ok?
• Scrolling ahead to improve MM after an enemy unit leaves a better tile, ok?
• Scrolling ahead to reuse a shared tile for a second time during the same production cycle is exploitive

Your thoughts? Reference to rule-sets (too lazy to look this up)?