GR18-AWM Genocide Variant vs 30 Civs.

[Greebley]

I am not in favor of sending out any armies just yet. We will need them to hold on. I am not big on pillaging in these games, unless it it strategic. IOW to cut a lux or a resource.

Cutting some roads will not help us as much as killing units and later towns. These two move armies will not cover much ground anyway.

I think we would have been very lucky to have more than one lux near us, so that is no big deal.

I would be fine with the rest of what was said. If we got that second army down by the Iron, if should be able to prevent any towns though.

As long as we do not have enough towns for more armies we can pop the pentagon and the HE with any spare leaders.

Edit I see we did rush the pentagon, sweet.

Edit 2: Dang more civs in our face.

I am not so much interested in pillaging as in razing enemy cities and pushing our borders outward. That is what I mean by "send out the armies" - city razing.

Pillaging is not really worthwhile on these huge maps. You can cut resources, but in general they get reconnected too quickly and AI have multiple sources.

 

[Mumpulus]

I think we can more or less easily found 4 new towns at least:

• my spot 3 in earlier post: it's behind the front
• my spot 5 in earlier post: that spot is under pressure anyway, and will actually be easier to hold with a walled town
• a new spot 7: NW-NW-W of spot 5, will probably not see much action, because spot 5 will serve as lightning rod
• a new spot 8: W-SW of Cheju, that's close, but we better build on a hill there, it's on a river but will only have one FP for growth

From Greebley's report I counted 1 loss on our side, from markh's report, also 1 loss on our side (not counting the workers). If those numbers are correct, we should be able to make some progress? I realize we've "lost" 9 swords to armies in the past 20 turns, but surely we've built at least 9 new ones in that time?

I would keep the armies in the north, and send one of them forward now, to raze towns in our immediate vicinity. It can quickly make its way back when needed, or hold for a bit to cover worker operations as we push forward. In the east and south, we have only 1 opponent at each front, which should be manageable with singular units for now. Our next army can go there. From the 350AD screenshot I can tell the Vikings are now bypassing our colony. Would moving the elite spear on and off the colony help in controlling Viking movement?

I agree there's no use pillaging in this game, maybe just the occasional road for tactical purposes.

 

[Greebley]

I think we can found your towns Mumpulus. I agree we should be building up units and be able to advance soon. Remember we were getting initial rushes from civs that makes things seem harder than they will be in the future.

I am hoping we are built up enough that ThERat's turn will show some progress. Only thing that would stop this would be sizable number of the new civs units showing up.

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
to say the situation is a little dicey would be a complete understatement. I can't remember a AW game that bad for a long time
Having 9 enemies this early is insane

IT defeat a sword at Ulsan

1.360AD
clear 5 units, try and make sure our workers are safe

IT defeat 2 swords on defense, the rest tries to invade our land

2.370AD
mopping up units in the north is easy with the 3 armies, defeat 5 units there
defeat another 3 units, but lose an elite sword

reduce lux to 20%

IT goodness, defeat 2 units at Cheju, lose a sword on gem mountain after defeating 1 sword

3.380AD
decide to move 1 army south else we lose the iron there
defeat 4 units in the north

IT no attacks this time

4. 390AD
defeat 2 Vikings units in the south to make way for our settler moving south
in the north defeat settler pair and another 3 units

IT defeat 2 unit on defense, but get a road pillaged by the worst unit the whole game has to offer. I really learned to hate those Zulu
impis, they will pillage the land like crazy with their 2 movement points. The best part, it is a settler pair

5.400AD
not that we could afford that, but lose a sword against archer on flat, take out that annoying impi and the settler below
defeat 4 more units, settlers moving south

IT it's getting crowded, enemies lose 4 units including 2 swords trying to take out a spear on a gem mountain

6.410AD
defeat 6 units mainly in the north
army covers settler next to iron

IT win against a sword on mountain, lose a cat due to deficit (-1gold), how embarrassing

7.420AD
found Iron City, income in the green again
defeat a few units in the north and lose a horse against archer

IT nice, defeat 6 units on defense without any losses

8.430AD
defeat 6 units and get next settler into position in the south

IT well, not every interturn can be nice, lose 2 swords, one at Paegam against archer and another on mountain against sword
Ottoman start Great Wall, thus have construction

9.440AD
found Kaesong pushing up the income, we could build the FP now
defeat 3 units
increase science for writing in 1

IT win against an impi with an exposed spear
Ottoman now have horses as well
writing is in

10.450AD
take out Swazi for 4 gold sinking a galley at the same time
defeat 4 other units
we do have a settler in Wonsan, next player can decide what to do with it

put research on philo since it's the cheapest but we can change to whatever we like, maybe currency?

 

[ThERat]

as for the future, at the moment the pressure in the south is the least

Ottoman at Cheju and Vikings from the south only. Thus expanding in that direction is the easiest to get unit support down and army possibilities up.

Spain/Maya/Hittite and Zulu come from the north
Dutch and Celts come from the northeast
Carthage has not shown up except for a lone settler pair running around confused

They tend to avoid attacking our army defended towns, but we can still manage to clear everything. be careful not to let impis get in the range of roads etc as they will pillage relentlessly

 

[Mumpulus]

How about going for literature then? Like I said earlier, I think it will be more efficient for us to build cheap libs instead of expensive markets. We can then get the same bpt at a lower science rate to recoup gpt.

In any case, I think we need a few more towns before we start thinking of infrastructure. I feel we'd have to found an extra ring in the north to be somewhat safe to start on infra.

If we get a leader but can't create an army, I propose to go for FP before HE. In Some Song, or maybe my spot 1 or 4?

We have to hold on here, and try to push forward some more before MA units show up. I we can pull this off, I think that would be a real accomplishment. I can't remember a game with this many early contacts (and that wasn't abandoned).

 

[Greebley]

If we have to run high gold and low science then Markets are better. If they run about the same then libraries are better. Problem is that I expect we will be running high gold due to unit support.

If we can get more towns then Libraries are better as unit support will be more tolerable.

 

[Mumpulus]

Sorry for the long post that follows. I'm actually not saying much in it. But either I didn't make myself clear or I'm missing something obvious, so I wanted to make sure...

Suppose we have 1 city that makes 20 uncorrupted commerce per turn. Suppose you need 12gpt for support. Then without buildings, you set the slider to 60% treasury, and you end up with 8bpt as remainder.

If you add a library, the gpt stays unchanged at 12, and the bpt goes up to 12. If you add a marketplace, you end up with 18gpt and 8bpt without changing anything. There's excess gpt. Of course, you can move the sliders to 40% treasury and 60% science and end up with 12gpt and 12bpt. In both cases you've added a commerce multiplier, but the total commerce doesn't change because of that. You end up moving the sliders in function of the decision made, but in the end the total income remains the same.

A library and a marketplace both have the same maintenance costs. So the difference is in shields, culture and happiness. A library is 40s for us (being scientific), while a market is 100s. Culture is always nice. We don't have the luxes right now for the market happiness multiplier to apply.

Let's take the last save as an example and take an extract of the F1 screen with our top cities for commerce:

I've marked,

• In green our total commerce, which is listed as "Income:" at the top of the window. To get the value of 91, you should sum all entries within the green rectangle, both corrupted and uncorrupted commerce (including the ones that don't show in the screenshot).
• In red our corrupted commerce, amounting to 11 right now.
• In blue our bpt totals. The total amount at the top does not include beakers from scientists. So the sum of the values in the big rectangle is 35, but 3 of those beakers come from a scientist in Pusan, as indicated by the light blue circle.
• In yellow our gpt values per town. They sum to 33 (including values not in the shot), which equals 91 (total) - 32 (science) - 15 (entertainment) - 11 (corruption).

This is at the current slider settings, which allot the same budget to science and to the treasury (40% each). The difference between 32 and 33 is the result of rounding. I'm sure that so far I haven't told anything you all didn't know.

Now, if we put science at 30% right now, and thus treasury at 50%, we loose 7bpt and gain 7gpt. To regain the 7bpt, we have to build libraries in our top 5 commerce cities right now.

If we put science at 50% right now, and thus treasury at 30%, we gain 11bpt and loose 11gpt. To regain the 11gpt, we don't even have a sufficient number of good commerce producers. Now, this is all due to rounding, and there's no way of knowing what the exact numbers will be. In this instance, going through the percentages for science gives increases of 8bpt, 7bpt, 10bpt, 7bpt, 11bpt, 5bpt, 8bpt, 9bpt; going from 0% to 10%, from 10% to 20%, etc., respectively.

But the general principle will always hold. Even if we're running high gold, which indeed is very likely, the library multiplier still applies to the smaller remainder. The return of the libraries is smaller because of the lower rate, but that's fine because they allow us to have a lower rate in the first place and still have the same bpt total. The only thing we must make sure of is that the rate doesn't go below 20%, because then the rounding well mess everything up.

And finally, our town count will go up (or else this game is lost anyway), reducing the need for gpt. We'll actually turn up the science slider, and libraries will return even more.

So I'd rather build libraries.

 

[ThERat]

interesting analysis here

I think the main aim we have to have besides going for libraries (thus going for literature next) is to get more towns down. In the south, there is space even though those cities won't be the fastest growing towns. However, each town will give us more free units and more armies.

Currently, we need 2 more towns for another army. If we get a MGL before that, we can always build the FP and HE. In fact I would like us to build the HE in one of the border towns so that we get some extended borders. The pentagon helped us in that sense already as the enemy needs to retreat further when wounded.

 

[Greebley]

Mumpulus, I am not saying we are in this scenario and I hope to avoid it, but if we are getting 20 commerce and need 20 units of support, the library is worthless (I have played AWE where science was forced to zero in the past - but I also feel that this is a mistake to get to such straights). A Market on the other hand would give us 30 GPT. If we set the slider to 70% gold we get 21 gold to cover the unit support and 6 science. This is the case where the market clearly wins.

If we can keep science to 30-40% without Markets then Libs will be best. If we are going down to 0-20% science without Markets, then we need currency more.

Rembember number of units supported will go to nearly 1/2 when we get Monarchy (since we have so few rivers). That could drop science to zero. If we had Markets then instead we could probably keep science running. In other words, Markets might enable us to switch to Monarchy sooner. This would make the Markets worth the 20 extra shields for that case.

Edit: Something to look at might be if we switched to Monarchy now what science could we run? Anything reasonable?

Since we are also going for lit, the question might instead be -should we go for currency or Monarchy first? I would say Monarchy if we can afford it - currency if we need some markets to run science at at least 30%

 

[vmxa]

Have not had a chance to look at the options, would suspect Currency will be cheaper for us and hence faster and therefore more likely to be useful. Only because I would expect more civs to get to it before Monarchy.

Monarchy will have to see some civs going for HG, then it would be cheap.

Anyway I got it and played 3 turns tonight. Pretty much as the last round so far. Lots of towns coming under pressure and most IBT's are a nail bitter. If the RNG is mean, we would suffer. So far it has been good.

Still more units to kill than I can and lots of redline units get to run away. Lots of elite wins and no leader. I would go for FP if we can get one before we have enough towns for another army.

 

[Greebley]

Roster:
Greebley
NP - Out until Aug 15th
markh
ThERat - Just Played
vxma - Up
Mumpulus - On Deck

 

[vmxa]

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR18_AD510.SAV

I was only able to get in 6 turns. I had my third cancer operation Monday and have not been able to put in a good session these two days. Actaully it was my 5th op, but the 3rd in the last 6 or so weeks.

I should be able to get back to normal in a week or so and they have not schedule what I expect to be my last operation. It should be a easier procedure as it is on my shoulder.

This last one was behind my ear and I have twice before had to have cancer cut out there. This was was not a melanoma as those were though.

 

[vmxa]

PRE:
eSword kills spear and disbands the slaves (1-0).
Send the settler to hills to found past the iron. Not a good spot, but I think we need to pacify the north a bit more.

Lots of units in position to attack. Cheju is looking at 4 attackers.

IBT:
Well it went well. 6 attackers with Otto horse retreating and Gallic retreated.
4 swords die and we got a spear at Cheju to promote to elite (4-0).
Note a Mayan sword attacked the army in Some song.
[5-0]

460AD:
First 12 cats hit 11 times. Next 3 miss and we get 14 for 19, nice enough.
eHorse kills Zulu warrior (1-0).
eSword kills Dutch archer (2-0).
eSword kills Spanish spear (3-0).
Move 3 cats out of Nampo to hit JT and get 2 hits.
2nd kills the JT (4-0).
4/5 horse kills dutch archer (5-0).
I am really mad that I have to let so many redlined units get away. Just cannot afford to leave units exposed right now.
Sword kills Vike sword, but goes red at Iron city. Should be safe to get back though (6-0).
[11-0]

IBT:
Bad move by me actually turns out to be fine. I did not see the redlined GS under a spear.

It was able to swoop in and capture the 3 cats. No problem as they are still in our borders and now I can kill the GS as well. He should have left with the spear or at least disbanded the cats. Did not even use them to hit the town.

470AD:
eHorse kills the GS (1-0).
Sword grabs the cats and the cats go to Wosan to ping dutch units.
4/5 horse kills Celt archer (2-0).
1st take a 7hp whack attacking a sword on a desert tile, not forted (3-0).
Sword kills Dutch archer at Taejon (4-0).
3rd kills a units (5-0).
eSword kills Vike sword at Inchon (6-0). Where is my leader?
eSpear kills Vike archere at Inchon (7-0).
Leaves a redlined sword at the door, but our sword is 4/5 still.
[18-0]

IBT:
Can't complain. went 7-1 with a sword dying at Paegam. 3 Spears went elite.
[25-1]

480AD:
Sword kills Vike spear at Seoul and goes elite (1-0).
Sword kills Dutch spear at Teajon (2-0).
eSword kills Vike sword (3-0).
4/5 horse kills GS (4-0).
Sword retreats GS.
eSword kills that GS (5-0).
3rd kills Mayan sword (6-0).
3rd takes a lot of lumps killing second Mayan sword (7-0).
2nd also has a struggle killing 2hp Zulu archer (8-0).
2nd kills Spanish archer (9-0).
Sword kills spear (10-0).
2/5 horse kills 1/3 Zulu sword, desperate here (11-0).
3/5 sword kills Spanish archer (12-0).
1st kills 2 spears at Harelm (14-0).
At least 12 elite wins so far. Some of the IBT wins may also been elites.
[39-1]

IBT:
No attacks.

490AD:
4/5 sword kills Otto sword (1-0).
Sword kills GS (2-0).
eSword kills GS (3-0).
Both are at full health, but a GS can attack them next turn. Had to risk as those wound GS had to be eliminated or they will cut roads.
3rd kills Dutch spear (4-0).
I start a horse in the cap as we could use a couple to kill off some of these 1hp units and get back.

Next IBT is going to be very dangerous. All armies are damaged and Paegan is facing 7 units.
[43-1]

IBT:
Sword at Wosan retreats a GS. Then kills a dutch archer and goes elite (1-0).
2nd kills 2 Spanish archers and a Hitt sword at Paegan, but is nearly killed (4-0).
[47-1]

500AD: (5th)
eSword kills GS (1-0).
Found Chonju.
4/5 sword kills Otto sword (2-0).
Sword kills Otto sword (3-0).
eSword kills Oto spear (4-0).
3/5 horse kills Dutch archer (5-0).
4/5 kills Spanish archer (6-0).
4/5 kills JT (7-0).
eSpear kills archer (8-0).
1st kills Vike sword (9-0).
[56-1]

IBT:
Skated again. JT dies at some Song vs army (1-0).
Celt pair do not cut roads at Wosan.
Hitt sword dies at Paegam, but redlines the eSpear and the army was redlined already.
No one else attacks there as the 2 sword and an aarcher retreat (2-0).
[58-1]

510AD:
Sword kills Celt archer at Wosan (1-0).
eSword kills Celt spear there (2-0).
3rd kills Mayan sword (3-0).
eHorse kills JT (4-0).
Sword kills Zulu sword and goes elite (5-0).
4/5 sword kills Otto spear astride our road from Cheju to the cap (6-0).
Swap a pop in Seoul to gain extra gold with same food/shields.
Move pop off plains with no road to hill to gain 2 gold.
Up research for now.
We have a few tiles that we do not have roads because of the units.
I sent a stack of workers to hill to try to get something out of them as we do not have many places they can be safely and productively now.

Settler with moves left, no idea what we should do with it. No place it can go and not be under great pressure in the north or the east.

No place in the SE either and the West or SW is not open, unless you use the desert tiles.

We have a GS next to Wosan that had one HP pinged off and another in the grass that can reach a number of tiles.

Philo in 4 at -3gpt.

25 elite wins no leader.

[64-1]

 

[ThERat]

I was only able to get in 6 turns. I had my third cancer operation Monday and have not been able to put in a good session these two days. Actaully it was my 5th op, but the 3rd in the last 6 or so weeks.

I don't think you need to worry about C3C so much. I hope everything turns out well for you!!!

Fantastic kill ratio by the way Let's hope someone has more leaderluck than we had in the recent past.

 

[Mumpulus]

Let's hope someone has more leaderluck than we had in the recent past.

Well, this someone is up, and I think I'm due some of that leaderluck everyone is talking about.

[64-1] isn't too shabby , I think I'll play somewhat aggressively to try and settle some more good towns... I can't open the save here and no picture, so difficult to estimate pressure in the north, but I'm sure we'll have some opportunities.

I'll try to get in some turns tonight, and will try to finish tomorrow night or Saturday morning.

 

[Greebley]

If we have enough units now we can use armies as Settler escorts to settle despite heavy numbers. This can have the added benefit of forcing the enemy to waste time retreating to the new borders to heal.

So I think your idea of settling despite opposition is a good one if you can pull it off.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: It would appear as if you're having bad luck in leaders, but good luck in battles. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I, on the other hand, have bad luck in both areas.

 

[Greebley]

I will be away this weekend. markh, if the weekend is best for you and Mumpulus has played, then feel free to take the game. Otherwise I will play on Monday. (and if play is really fast and ThERat wants to sneak in, that is allowed )

Roster:
Greebley - On deck - possible swap
NP - Out until Aug 15th
markh - play after Mumulus if you wish
ThERat
vxma - Just Played
Mumpulus - Up

 

[Mumpulus]

FYI: I didn't have time to play yesterday, so I'll finish around noon tomorrow (CET).